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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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JLucas
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4 Omaha, Nebraska
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2008-12-16          158607


Recently, I have noticed that my power steering has been working stiff. Tonight, when doing snow removal for the 1st time this year, the pump was noisy, and jumpy when lifting the fel, and rear blade just after starting. It did get better after it warmed up, but it has never acted this way before. What can be causing this?

I store it in the attached garage, so it doesn't get real cold (always above freezing). I bought this tractor new in 2004, and it has about 185 hours on it. I changed the HST fluid and filters earlier this year, with Kubota brand stuff.

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2008-12-17          158613




WE have been working with a customer complaint of jumpy steering on one with only 62 hours on it. We did forget to go to the basic's!!!! After changing the steering box, a lot of time checking tires, gears and all other things involved in the steering. It was mentioned after we got started that it wasn't that way when new! Asking how long ago he started noticing it, was about the time he changed the filters and did service! We changed the hydraulic filter and all is well!!! We actually gained 250 PSI on the relief valve setting with one thing that is basic!!!! We should have done it first!!!!!!

Even new can be bad and with the chances that a manufacturer that wants to enhance his own machines can have one come out bad. Just think of what you might get with a filter that only has to match a price point! ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-17          158618


Lucas, that jumpiness is due to lack of fluid in the pump either because the filter media is too fine and won't pass fluid and/or the fluid is too thick and cold---remember a CUT typically uses the machine as a reservoir which acts like a huge radiator. Running a pump this way causes what is called cavitation which will wipe out a pump in no time if left unchecked. Been there, done that. ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2008-12-17          158620


Earthwrks,

You are correct, Sir. This is a very significant problem, and it should be addressed, pronto!

It's been a bit colder than usual, across the entire nation. It's been in the -20 to -30 degree range here in North Dakota over the past week. I've not had any problems with my hydraulic system, mainly because I pay EXTRA attention to these things, in hopes of avoiding any such problem.

The smallest amount of moisture in the hydraulic fluid can cause the filters to plug up with ice. It can also cause the sump screen to ice over. In addition, these cold temps can cause the fluids to become as thick as honey, making it nearly impossible for the pump to move it.

Most people don't like to spend the money on the highest quality hydraulic fluids. However, I have no choice in the matter. If I want to use my tractor at temps of -20 to -30 degrees F., I MUST use fluids that flow like water even in these extremely cold temps.

I just cleaned out my driveway. It was -20 when I went to work. The tractor performed flawlessly. There was no noise from the pumps, and the hydraulics were extremely responsive. I give credit to a very thorough servicing schedule, as well as to Kubota's Super UDT fluids.

Joel

....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7199 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-12-17          158621


The down'n'dirty solution to a lot of the cold weather related problems is a magnetic block heater on the side of the TX casing.

They are cheap and don't take a lot of electricity relatively speaking. Most are 200 or 300 watts but will provide an important source of heat. They work especially well on things like the diesels lock and the TX casing since the thick cast iron really sucks up the heat and does a good job of distributing it.

On our machines that are trailered around, or must be left somewhere without shelter or power, a couple of those, a battery charger and a battery warming blanket will make any machine think it's summertime. It also means the total current draw is such that even a very small generator will still run it all no problem.

Best of luck. ....


Link:   Magnetic Block Heater

 
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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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JLucas
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4 Omaha, Nebraska
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2008-12-17          158640


After reading your advice, I now remember the dealer didn't have both filters in stock, so I bought a NAPA gold cross reference. I think I will change out both filters with new again (both Kubota this time), and invest in a magnetic block heater.

I did use the dealer recommended fluid, which I believe was the super UDT. I will double check that tomorrow. Wifes car is in the way, and can't get to the container.

Thanks guys for the tips, I will let you know how this works out.

John ....

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JLucas
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4 Omaha, Nebraska
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2008-12-19          158707


I swapped out both filters with Kubota brand, and no more noises or jumpy hydraulics, it's working great.

I called at least six places including TSC, and various auto parts stores and all of the magnetic block heaters are sold out. I will get one when they become available.

Thanks for the help!!!

Happy Holidays

John ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-20          158710


In a pinch youcan use an infrared spotlight shining on the oil pan from below and or on the side of the engine PROVIDING nothing that can melt or catch fire is in harm's way. A few years ago my Dodge's diesel fuel system froze up. The undercarriage was packed with ice after a long day's plowing. My buddies and I made a tent of Visqueen and sealed the bottom of it where it touched the ground with snow then aimed a 40,000 BTU "salamander" heater underneath. 3 hours later it melted. ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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r1bourg
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 14 Whitefish Falls,Ontario
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2008-12-22          158800


I read the information to help me better understand my Kubota B7510. Up here in Whitefish Falls Ontario on the shore of Northern Lake Huron the temperature dipped to minus 28 last night.My tractor ran ok this morning.Never had any problems with it in 380 hours. It will start in this weather with 10-20 seconds on the preheat. My son a heavy duty mechanic in the nickel mines of Sudbury advices me to plug it in or keep in the garage. His point being the cylinders will get a good for nothing work out in cold weather...metal on metal. Another thing he advised was to give it a 10-15 minutes to warm up before using the hydraulics. Cold weather use is very hard on all other components as well.Glad to hear we have people like Art at Whites Tractor in NY. ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7199 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-12-22          158804


Quote:
Originally Posted by r1bourg | view 158800
Another thing he advised was to give it a 10-15 minutes to warm up before using the hydraulics.


Howdy neighbour!! Sort of anyways..... LOL

I hope your son also told you that a diesel makes almost no heat at all at idle. The only way to warm it up is to give it a little throttle, about 1,300 - 1,500 rpm works well.

If you have a way to rig up something that will blow the exhaust back onto the block that will help also.

Not only your block heater should be plugged in, but if you can keep the machine out of the wind, and put a magnetic block heater or two on the oil pan and transmission sump it will help a LOT. Warm oil is also a lot easier on the components.

Best of luck. ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5242 South Carolina
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2008-12-22          158805


And as you say to your wife, honey it is more important the tractor remains warm than your car so it gets the garage... ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-22          158806


Bourg, "metal-on-metal" is an urban myth--also called a dry start by deceptive marketing people that would lead the uninformed to believing an engine is dry EVERY time before it starts. If that were the case, and it's not, EVERY engine ever made would have a preluber. Or they would be left running 24/7.

Unless the engine was freshly assembled without any lubrication that's the only way you would have metal-on-metal. That I'm sure is not the case since you have many hours on it. When you shut it off the last time you used it there is still residual oil film on everything inside the engine not to mention oil in the lube system ready to go as soon as the oil pump starts to spin.

Besides, the diesel fuel itself from the injectors is a lubricant and is even more plentiful in raw form before the engine fires up.

I'm jis' sayin' ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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r1bourg
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 14 Whitefish Falls,Ontario
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2008-12-22          158809


Thanks for the info Murf. I did not know to move the idle up to 13-1500 rpm. Do you move it up after a minute or so? or right away? ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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r1bourg
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 14 Whitefish Falls,Ontario
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2008-12-22          158810


Thanks for the info Earthworks. I'll question my young lad to see what he meant. Perhaps I misunderstood his meaning.Like I said I'm reading and learning on this sight.You make good logical scence. It is something like when a snowmachine is stored for the summer. We used to pour oil into the cylinders via the spark plug opening. Some guys tell me much like you said that the oil mixed gas leaves a film on the cylinders. Others start the engine several times during the off season. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-23          158811


Bourg, assuming you have a 2-stroke snowmachine, that is not a bad idea to top-lube the cylinders to prevent rust, though I'm not convinced it is really necessary.

The 2-stroke gassers I've had didn't have a pressurized internal oil lubrication like a 4-stroke gas or diesel.

I do have a 2-stroke Detroit diesel in the road grader that has a pressurized lube system.

2-stroks gassers generally use the atomized fuel/oil mixture to swirl around inside the engine lubing the internals before it enters the combustion chamber(s); likewise the incoming fuel/air mix for combustion has lubricating properties sort of like the diesel fuel. ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7199 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-12-23          158814


The simplest way to not only get the warm up set right, but to also ensure the fastest start-up is have the throttle set right BEFORE you crank the engine. This also minimizes the wear and tear on your frozen battery and starter.

If there is not enough fuel it will crank longer than necessary before starting, too much and it will slow the starting.

The easiest way is to set the throttle to 1,300 - 1,500 rpm (depending on how cold you think it might be next time you start it) just before you shut the engine off. Next time you come to start it, there's no guess work, you know the throttle is in the right position and all you have to do is turn the key.

Best of luck. ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-23          158820


Murf, humor me here. I'm always eager to learn (regardless of what Kenny says :) )

I'm curious about the setting the trottle higher before starting to minimize draining the battery and hurting the starter: What is the connection between a low throttle and starting it and a high throttle?

My thinking is: if combustion relies on the temp. of the compressed air BEFORE the fuel is injected, so the question is does it really matter real-world how much fuel gets injected?

Myself, I have tried it both ways on very cold days and really didn't see any difference--of course, I was cold and really didn't want screw around any longer than I to and make any empirical studies.

Assuming a high throttle is the best, does it matter what kind of diesel injection system i.e., electronic v. mechanical? I mean my skid steer has an intake heater grid and has all kinds of electronic controls on the injector pump (pretty sure the engine is a 3-cyl. Cummins).

My Cummins Ram doesn't have any sort of throttle (obviously) to set--and is electronically controlled, so I'm wondering would it start better if I were to hold the accelerator pedal down? I think the one time I tried it when i was chugging to start I got a bunch of black smoke. ....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7199 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-12-23          158822


Jeff, all good questions.

First off, the hand throttle one, as I stated earlier, the object is to get the engine to light up in as short a time as possible. A shorter cranking time is easier on both battery & starter. I was told by a 'Bota factory tech. rep. (and it seems to bear out) that the small diesels start & warm up best with that throttle setting. Any less fuel is not going to kick as well on a slow crank and cold cylinders. More is too much to effectively light up and has a cooling effect.

Your Dodge, unlike your tractor, has a variety of little goodies like an ambient air temp. sensor, coolant temp. sensor and so on. In a 'cold start' situation it will optimize the fuel delivery (both timing and quantity) to get the best possible start. Extra pedal input would just defeat that.

BTW, if your truck is a standard TX, there is also a difference in having the park brake set or not too. The manufacturers use the park brake switch (the one that turns on the idiot light) as a means of signaling a parked position and tripping the cold start function.

On the Ford PSD's, it starts a timer going, if no brake pedal is applied a moment after starting, and the park brake is set and the ambient & engine temps are cold it closes the butterfly on the turbo and takes the engine up to 1,350 rpm and richens the mixture to make the engine warm as fast as possible by keeping the extra heat trapped in the motor.

While I doubt anyone could call it an empirical study, we did do some informal cold weather testing of various starting options and have found that the 1,300 -1,500 rpm setting does seem to help.

It is also convenient since we use that very same setting for a 'cool down' idle setting when we park them after a good workout like what we've been having lately.

We did experiment a bit with a restrictor on the exhaust of a few CUT's to see if we could make our own fast heat system, but it didn't work and was a PITA.

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2008-12-23          158824


Murf; My father would turn over in his grave if he caught me starting an engine at half throttle. The tiny diesels like my Deere fire the first time over with the manifold heater having been lit up for fifteen seconds or so. It never sputtters, misses, etc. it just sits there chattering away at about 7-900 RPM warming up. I think that guy from Kubota filled you with a big load and you swallowed it. Merry Christmas. Frank. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-23          158825


Franky, don't hold back now--tell us how you really feel. :) ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2008-12-23          158826


No, EW I don't hold back, when I feel somebody is wrong I tell em so right up front. First thing we know you will buy a new gear drive tractor like you should have had all along. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7199 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-12-23          158827


Frank, from the manual for the Kubota diesel engine in our commercial mowers (also used in the winter as snowblowers);

"Allow the engine to warm-up for a minimum of five minutes before applying a load. To warm-up the hydraulic oils, run the engine at about 50 percent of the rated engine rpm (see chart)."

From the manual for our Navistar truck engines;

"Standard on all International engines, CAP slowly increases engine idle speed to a preset maximum rpm to speed warm-up time. The CAP feature is automatically enabled when the intake air temperature is below freezing and coolant temperature is below 149F for the International I-6 or 158F for the V-8."

Although I didn't dig it up, the manual for the Cummins in our other truck makes a similar statement.

Not that I'm saying your Dad was wrong here Frank, but Kubota, International, Cummins and a few others seem to disagree with him.

Best of luck. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7199 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2008-12-23          158828


Quote:
Originally Posted by hardwood | view 158826
First thing we know you will buy a new gear drive tractor like you should have had all along.


As "Larry the Cable Guy" would say, "I don't care who you are, that right there is funny!!"

This from a guy with a yard full of hydrostat machines purely because the customers INSIST on it.

Oh well, customer is always right aren't they Jeff? LOL

Best of luck.

....

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B7800 Hydraulics jumpy and noisy when cold

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-23          158830


I dunno... (sniffle, sniffle).... Murf.

Frank got.... me....
Frank got me....all upset....(sniffle)
an' I ca...I can't think.....right....(sniffle)
..... now.

I'll..... be....in.....m....mmm....mmmmm....I'll be in my room.

I dontwantdinnereither. (SLAM!!) ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2008-12-23          158831


Okay, I'm hungry now. An' I'm 'fraid of the dark.

Murf, there appears to be a word missing after 'don't' in your last post:

As "Larry the Cable Guy" would say, "I don't ____ who you are, that right there is funny!!"

Are we left to fill in the politically-correct word, like "care" or "know" or???
....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2008-12-23          158834


Ok, now that we all feel better after blowing off a bit of steam let's just sit back and wait for Santa. I might get a new gear drive tractor, Murf and EW might get one with a marshmallow box, all them runn9ng at the desired idle of the new owners. Who is Larry the cable guy??? Does he have a tractor running at full idle?? Merry Christmas. ....

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r1bourg
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 14 Whitefish Falls,Ontario
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2008-12-23          158838


Thanks Murf and Earthworks your information is appreciated. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5242 South Carolina
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2008-12-24          158843


Quote:
Originally Posted by hardwood | view 158834
Ok, now that we all feel better after blowing off a bit of steam let's just sit back and wait for Santa. I might get a new gear drive tractor, Murf and EW might get one with a marshmallow box, all them runn9ng at the desired idle of the new owners. Who is Larry the cable guy??? Does he have a tractor running at full idle?? Merry Christmas.


Oh his is probably the money makingist person who grew up on a hog farm in Nebraska.

Hey EW, will let you correct the spelling so you have some more fun. ....

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