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need a 110V winch

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-09-23          145985


I'm in need of a 110V winch that will lift 5-6000 lbs. in a reasonable amount of time. I'm building a freight elevator for my shop and had thought of using a 12V winch but they show only like 5-7 ft. of lift per minute for one in the "Reasonable cost" line, (2-300 dollars), that seems pretty slow. The ones I would like in the 110V, with faster lift times, remote and all that are in the 12-1600.00 dollar class. Is there a less expensive way to do this? I really don't want anything to do with E-bay or any of the online auction stuff, I still like to go to a store, junk yard, where ever and look at something, then buy if it looks good. Frank.

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1539 Moravia, NY
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2007-09-23          145987


Morning Frank

Usta B around here elevators in all of the larger chicken coops. I don't think they lifted 5000# at a time but I remember several bags of feed, carts and operator all on them.

Have no idea how operated, I was just a little guy.

But it might give you a place to look also for old elevator works.

Edit in: You might look at the old gas station hydraulic lifts or maybe a newer unpside down hyd cable pulley arrangment.

Harvey ....

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hardwood
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2007-09-23          145990


Hrvey; In the real world I would never lift anything half that heavy, but just wanted the added in safety factor of not stressing things to the limit. Or do winches already have a built in safety margin? Frank. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-09-23          145997


I like the upside down hydraulic cylinder idea. If you did it that way you'd neeed a cylinder with only half the stroke length you plan to lift. You can buy electro-hydraulic pump and resevoirs for a car lift.

If you decided to use the cylinder without cables, you can buy a used hydraulic cylinder with the stroke you're needing from a car hauler.

Better yet is just buy the entire mast assembly from a hi-lo forklift. Around here you can buy these used masts for scrap value. You could even leave the forks on it and weld a steel floor to them. This is probably the cheapest and easiest way to go. And you won't need to build any type of lifting basket or guide rails or anything but heavy mounts on the floor and some way to attach the top of the mast to the walls or posts. ....

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mobilus
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 171 Clay County, TX
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2007-09-23          146005


Check this guy's setup out!

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2122&page=6&highlight=bridge+crane

I had never really given a bridge crane much thought, but hey, after seeing this, I will have one in my next shop! ....

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JasonR
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 142 Northern Indiana
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2007-09-23          146011


I have (2) 110v winches on my portable gantry. I got them from northern tool (see web link). They're each rated for 1100lb - and will go 16FPM at this rating.

Winches get pretty pricey with higher load ratings. I'm guessing you're not going to find one with super speeds - for two reasons: higher rating typcially means high gear ratios (double the load rating - decrease the speed by a factor of 2) and most folks aren't looking to move super heavy loads a fast speeds (slow is safe).

Depending upon your budget - you could parallel 4 or 5 of the 1100lb winches.

- Jason ....


Link:   110v winch

 
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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7141 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2007-09-25          146059


Frank, a 6k load is a LOT to hang on a cable, might be a better deal to find an old used forklift.

As for a winch itself though, we use a regular 1/2 hp. motor into a lovejoy coupler, then into a 90° deep reduction gearbox that then chain drives a pulley to lift the hangar doors. I don't know the weight exactly, but I can tell you a 45' wide, 16' high door is hefty!! It lifts it without even thinking about it.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-09-25          146075


Frank,

Check out the CM Lodestar chain hoist.

It's a 110vac electric chain hoist, capable of lifting 6000lbs, up to 20 feet high.

Here's a link.

Joel ....


Link:   CM Loadestar Chain Hoists

 
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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-09-25          146076


Frank,

The link I posted is rather confusing. Sorry about that.

I'm looking at the CM Lodestar model #s CMCT9501, CMCT9502, and CMCT9503

These hoists will lift 6000 pounds at a rate of 11 feet per minute with the 2 horse electric motor.......or 5.5 feet per minute with the 1 horse electric motor. (110vac)

If you would rather go with a 2-ton hoist, you can lift 4000 pounds at up to 16 feet per minute with the 2 horse electric motor......or 8 feet per minute with the 1 horse motor. (110vac)

Joel ....


Link:   CM Lodestar Chain Hoist Spec Sheet

 
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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-09-25          146083


Thanks for all the info. I'm going with a 3000 lb. rated cable wrap enclosed worm gear drive hoist W/3 hp. belt drive electric motor. Ok, get your calculators out. Final ratio is 215/1 between the cable drum and the 3450 RPM motor. This gives aprox. 16 RPM of a 4 1/4 in diam. drum driven by the 3 hp motor at 3450 RPM. This should work out to 13.5 inches per wrap on the 4.25 in drum at 16 RPM equaling aprox 18 ft. per minute of lift. I need 10 ft. of lift, my calculations work out to 34 seconds to lift the 10 ft. with this setup. Did I do any of this right? Please coprrect my calculations if I'm wron, I'd rather know now than after the thing is hung in the building. Thanks, Frank. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2007-09-25          146085


Frank, you got your "Butt Heads Helmet" on? Gonna need it hahahaha

First, taking your numbers, ONLY the first wrap layer of cable will be x". Each successive layer increases the wrap--by how much I don't know---need wire diameter, number of winds, and length of drum--you can do the math there.

And for each successive layer of cable, the line speed increases. Conversely, with each layer, the rated lift reduces (read the specs and it should say, "rated at first layer, bla, bla). And with each layer the amperage goes up too since there is more resistance.

For reference, these 4x4 trucks you see around with 12vdc winches on the front or rear draw nearly 300 amp at the first layer and as much as nearly 500 amps at full pull. Even at no-load they draw 80 amp (yes, and that's DC power but just for example). You may not see a spike in amp draw with that 3hp motor to begin with---but I'm jis' sayin'.
....

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hardwood
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2007-09-25          146087


EW; Yup, the helmet is on. And Yup, did the first/second/third wrap research. I only need nine wraps on the drum for twn ft. of lift. The drum is plenty wide for nine wraps of 3/8th's cable. Frank. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7141 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2007-09-26          146089


Frank, you're on the right track, but if I may offer a little suggestion.

Use two cables.

Figure out some way to have the winch hold two cables on the drum and have the other ends terminate separately on the fixed point of the mechanism. This way if one cable lets go for some reason the other will prevent a sudden drop.

I would also suggest you figure out some simple ratchet mechanism with spring loaded arms on the lift platform and ratchet stops or dogs on the wall that the lift climbs and a pull string to release them. That way when the lift stops the weight is not sitting on the cable (which will be springy) and in the event of a catastrophic failure of the lift, the load is held before your "Butt Head" helmet gets tested. ;)

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2007-09-26          146097


Frank, it must give you comfort seeing how good of hards you are in here. LOL not sure which face means that! kt ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2007-09-26          146112


Kenny please take the marbles outta yer mouth when you're typing :)

need a translation: "...good of hards you are in here." ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-09-26          146114


Jeff, wouldn't that be marbles between the fingers, not in the mouth?

You surprised me too, I figured you'd make some crack about insurance people not being too clear. ;)

But I'm jiss' sayin's all.......

Best of luck. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-09-26          146122


Yes, I've always felt a lot of comfort here, most of you even agree with some of my most goofy ideas. Murf, I had been thinking about some sort of a safety brake or catch thst may allow my insurace agent to get off the double dose of Prozac. Surely there has to be an engineer or a math wiz or two here to check my calculations and maybe even my sanity. Frank. ....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1932 North Dakota
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2007-09-27          146132


Frank,

Your idea isn't crazy in the least.

Floor space comes at a premium price. Any space you can utilize, without having to add on to the existing building, just makes good sense.

These elevators are common in industrial plants all across the nation. Overhead space goes almost entirely unused in most commercial buildings. What a waste.

You should have a safety brake on your elevator. These are usually designed to engage when the lift cable breaks. The safety brakes are held away from the elevator guides by the pressure on the cable. When that cable pressure disappears, the brakes instantly engage on the I-beam guide rails, or on some other support structure. The brakes are powered by huge coil springs that are kept under pressure by the lift cable assembly. When the tension on the lift cable goes away, the springs are allowed to extend out against the elevator guide frame.

In your case, these brakes would only engage when your elevator touches down on the concrete floor in your shop. There would never be any wear on the brake pads. The brakes would immediately disengage once the cable has tension on it, when lifting.

Whether you use this type of safety system, or something similar, I highly suggest that you rig up some device that will serve this purpose.

The following link should help you come up with a few ideas.

________________________

In 1852, Elisha Otis was working as a master mechanic at the Bedstead Manufacturing Company in Yonkers, New York. He was given the assignment to design a freight elevator to haul the company’s products. Otis was aware of the inherent problem of cable failure and sought a solution that would eliminate the hazard.

He realized that some sort of safety brake was required. The brake had to function automatically the instant the cable broke if it were to save lives and property. Otis experimented by placing a wagon spring above the hoist platform. He then attached a ratchet bar to the guide rails on each side of the hoistway. The lifting rope was fastened to the wagon spring in such a way that the weight of the hoist platform exerted just enough tension on the spring to keep it from touching the ratchet bars. If the cable snapped, however, the tension would be released from the spring and it would immediately engage the ratchets, preventing the platform from falling.

continued......
__________________________________________

Be safe, my friend.

Joel ....


Link:   Otis Elevator Safety Brake

 
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earthwrks
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2007-09-27          146133


Ah yes, safety brakes. Reminds me of when my brother and I were kids back in 1978. My "enterprising" father decided on his days off we were to scrap-out the guttings from a Detroit hospital he was remodeling. A temporary construction elevator was erected on the outside of the 5-6 story building. In big plain letters on a sign on the elevator it says "NO RIDERS". So my father being who he was says, "You two are going to use this--get in".

So he tries to start the old Wisonsin gas engine that drove it and it quits. (Read: this rickety thing is on it's way to the scrap heap)

He fires it up again and says "Wait", so we don't get in. He drives it to the top, the engine quits, and it free-falls 5-6 stories. After the ground stopped shaking, we pulled our you-know-whats out of our mouths.

That was truly a "Kodak-moment" and a day I'll never forget!

Safety-schmafety. We don't need no stinking safety brakes.

Yeah. Right.

And this concludes yet another chapter of "The (mis)adventures of Jeffy" or, also known as, "Excuse me. I have to change my shorts AGAIN." ....

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hardwood
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2007-09-27          146134


KT; It's just like Allstate around here, again I'm in "Good Hands".
Joel; Thanks for the links on Otis, I'm sure it was him that they featured on the History Channel a while back about his elevators. My shed has enough overhead clearance for a loft floor at about 10 ft. above the concreet to provide 1400 sq. ft. of storage with enough head room for a 6 ft. tall person to walk around without having to duck.
EW; Would you recommend a helment for may head and butt both?
Probably 20 yrs. ago the local grain elevator took a busload of farmers in to the Chacago board of trade for a day. While touring the building I was fascinated by a bank of elevators that started at about the tenth or so floor and went up to however high the building is. The elevator cars were not enclosed by the typical elevator shaft, they seemed to be just along a wall and you could watch all of the mechanical parts work. I remember that at the very bottom of the shaft's there were several huge coil springs probably four ft. tall, I suppose they were to be a last resort in case of a catostropic free fall. I wonderd how far the car would bounce back up if that happened. Likely some adult diapers would be in order too. Frank. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-09-27          146137


Frank, a 'safety mechanism' doesn't have to be rocket science.

Although I wouldn't want to stake my licence on it, as an Engineer I can tell you, a couple of stout hardwood beams with ratchet dogs carved into them, and a pair of ratcheting bars that engage the dogs on the beam would be more than enough to do the trick and only let the car drop as far as the last dog the ratcheting bar slid over, maybe a couple of inches at most.

My suggestion would be two horizontally opposed hardwood planks under the car, sliding back and forth in a track in the center of the car with a spring between them pushing them outwards and into the notched beams.

Of course I still stand by my original suggestion too. For about the same cost as fabricating an elevator you buy a used forklift that would be useful for far more than just getting stuff up and down off the mezzanine.

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-27          146139


EW, the person my commnet was meant for understood it. all that mattered. :) Could be he has more brain ability than some. :)

Frank, on topic of elevators in hotels, did you hear about the old guy who took his family to town. His wife and daughter went off looking at dresses: he and he son stood watching the elevators. An older weathered lady got on one and the lights flashed and the bells rung (EW they really did do this) and the doors reopen to find a much younger, fairer skin lady stepped off. To which he said to his son, quick, get your Maw! BTW EW, did it work?

Frank, a few years ago there were companys who made small elevators that could be either used inside or out side for Churches. The best I can remember the price was low and the capacity may be too low for your use, but that may be an option for you. They were designed to suit wheel chair use.

Murf, I truly agree with insurance agents not being clear. Many have no idea what they are selling. Then some don't want you to know what they are selling. Then some times you can get a straight answer from a company holding a gun to their head as you probably already knew. It can be amazing where you find the important part of a contract. kt

....

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candoarms
Join Date: Mar 2007
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2007-09-27          146140


Frank,

When I worked in the foundry, pouring molten metal, we used chain hoists to lift the ladles. Dropping 3000 pounds of 2800 degree molten metal is something that you don't want to happen.

The chain hoists have e-brakes built right into them. Should something in the hoist fail, the chain won't drop.

I know a chain hoist would cost a bit more than a simple cable hoist --- but the hastle of designing and building an emergency stop brake is eliminated.

Chains do wear out over time, but on an elevator such as yours, I'm guessing that a chain would last at least 100 years.



Murf,

When I finish my new building, I plan on having an overhead loft much like Frank's........and I'll be installing an elevator as well. Forklifts are great, so long as there is room enough to move one around. But if I had enough room to move a forklift around, I wouldn't need a loft.

Joel ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2007-09-27          146142


Joel, I understand what you're saying about space, but think you're missing a few salient facts.

In the original post Frank said "I'm in need of a 110V winch that will lift 5-6000 lbs. in a reasonable amount of time.".

My first thought is that unless Frank's in better shape than me he's going to need a forklift or something similar to it just to load the lift itself. I doubt too many here are up to humping 5-6k pounds around by hand anymore.

Secondly, I doubt a forklift would be any larger in footprint size than an elevator would be.

Finally, a forklift can be stored elsewhere and not take up 'prime' storage space, an elevator is sort of tough to move around.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-27          146150


Murf,

I agree. Loading the elevator can be a job. Unloading the elevator would be even more difficult, as there would be no way of using a forklift in the loft.


I plan on pouring my floor with a depressed area for the elevator, so that the floor of the elevator will be level with the shop floor, making it possible to roll a pallet jack right in. Keeping that depressed area clean and dry will be the only challenge, as it won't be possible to simply sweep it out.

A pallet jack can be lifted into the loft, right along with the load, making it necessary to keep just one pallet jack on hand. Pallets are the only way to go with this system, as there's never any lifting involved.

Joel ....

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Murf
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2007-09-27          146155


We do something similar, but the pallet jack permanently resides on the mezzanine and there is a shelving unit that stands against the wall where the lifting is done. When something has to go up or down that is too heavy to be moved by hand, the shelf unit is carried out of the way with the forklift, and the stuff moved up or down, then the shelving put back.

We can't afford to waste that much space by having a permanent elevating device taking up room that can't be used for anything but moving heavy stuff up & down on rare occasions. The commonly used stuff is all on grade, the only stuff upstairs are long term storage, light stuff, and the bulk tanks for oil, & etc.

Besides, in Ontario, as in most every other jurisdiction in North America, a permanently installed elevating device has to by approved by the Government as well as UL or a comparable safety authority. Lot's of hoopla for naught.

Best of luck. ....

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candoarms
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2007-09-27          146161


Murf,

You are correct about the regulations and other red tape involved, but such regulations only apply to employers. Private individuals are not regulated in such ways....at least not here.

Even so, I would hard-wire the hoist, and then install an electrical lock-out switch panel on the wall, with padlocks on both the panel and the switch. This would prevent any children from playing on it, except at ground level.

It is true that the elevator would take up some valuable space on the shop floor, but the trade-off is well worth it. The additional 1500 square feet of floor space above, is well worth the lost 48 square feet (6'x8') of floor space the elevator cage will consume.

Joel ....

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Murf
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2007-09-27          146162


Joel, I think you will find that ANY lifting device is required to be certified as safe by UL or others.

The licensing of passenger elevators is a whole other matter.

In my case the few square feet of floor space was worth far more than the $1,500 I paid for the forklift, the additional uses are just a huge bonus over & above getting stuff to & from the mezzanine level.

Best of luck. ....

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kthompson
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2007-09-27          146165


The government may not require inspection if in private use but any insurance company that insures such a building would have hard time with such if not UL approved and installed by license contractor. That I have very little doubt of. Then if that was not done and by chance some one got hurt due to it they probably would not be liable even if they were not aware such was there as more than likely they have a line in the contract such must meet such standards. kt


During lunch stopped by my house and was going to look at hoist in the New Northern Tool Catalog due to this thread, did not find any electric hoist in there. Did I miss them or is there a legal issue pulling them or did they just not sell for Northern? ....

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earthwrks
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2007-09-27          146173


When I was rebuilding Katrina-land I partnered-up with a huge Florida-based vertical conveyor manufacturer (notice I did not say "elevator"). The Gulf Coast has some homes that may have to built up as high 38 feet, so some means of transport was necessary.

We found that:

Private "personal lifting devices" i.e elevators have to be inspected by certified elevator inspectors once a year.

"Material and cargo vertical conveyors" do not need inspections. They do not any safety devices whatsoever. Ours had double cables.

We were selling "cargo lifts" for residential use which were not governed by laws necessarily. The buyer was told they "are not allowed (wink, wink) to permit anyone to ride the lift---and sign here that you will not use it for that."

Millions of products are used everyday that do not carry UL listings. ....

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hardwood
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2007-09-27          146184


Murf; I like your idea on the opposed spring loaded planks, I had a somewhat similar idea in mind but I think you improved a bit on my design.
KT; Probably 15 yrs. ago I got volunteered to be the head of a crew at our church made up of very capable volunteers from our parish to design, build and contract for an elevator to be installed in our new handicap entrance. It was interesting to do this simply for the learning experience about public passenger elevators. We had to by the rules of the Arch Diosesis (somebody correctly spell it for me, please) get three bids on the elevator. We turned down the two lowest, not by much in favor of a local person who had a good reputation for church and school elevators in our aeria. Yes there are many interlocks and safety devices to check on door closings, overload sensors, on and on, but all for good reason. It has worked almost flawlessly to this day. Little did I realize at that time that today in 2007 I would be one of the primary users of this elevator. A local welder has access to used forklifts of most any quality. I've looked at his typical "Inventory", most have more oil on and under them than is still left in them. They are cheap, yes, but a woodshop and a leaky old forklift just don't mix too well. I also looked into a new systwm incorporating a hydraulic lift, but I just don't want any oil within leaking or spurting distance of some hardwood lumber that is now, Cherry for example pushing six bucks a board foot. Thanks again for all the help, I think i've pretty much decided on the basic design and will stick with the cable wrap hoist I described earlier. Frank. ....

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