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John Deere 4300 trouble with Power Beyond

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markpee
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 26 Pine Bush, NY
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2007-06-24          143170


So here's my situation. I have a JD4300. Two months ago the dealer took it and mounted my new 447 backhoe on it, along with the required Power Beyond Kit (PBK). Yesterday I removed the backhoe to use mr rear blade for grading. I noticed that when I pull the Rockshaft Control Lever (RCL) all the way back, it sounds like the hydraulic pump hisses, and the tractor bogs down like its under a load. If I push the RCL foward, it seems to relieve the pressure, and operates fine. I don't remember this happening before I had the PBK installed. I'm afraid the pump is going to burn out costing some big bucks! I also had the hydraulics serviced with a new filter when it was there getting the hoe. Help please.

Mark

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John Deere 4300 trouble with Power Beyond

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2007-06-25          143175


Mark; DO NOT resart the engine untill you have plugged the power beyond hose you disconnected from the backhoe back into the tractor. Your pump has no bypass with this hose disconnected and you will ruin it The owners manual to the hoe should explain and likely have some pictures to help identify things. Be carefull with any hydraulic lines that may be under pressure, sometimes you have to use a couple wrenches to loosen the coupler from the hose to relieve built up ressure before a coupler will completely plug in. Again please read your owners manual explaining the dangers involved with high pressure fluids being suddenly released. Frank. ....

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markpee
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2007-06-25          143185


The hose is looped back into the PBK....so I know its circulating. I can feel fluid moving through the hose. ....

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markpee
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2007-06-25          143187


It always was....to clarify. This was not the issue. ....

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hardwood
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2007-06-25          143201


Markpee; Sorry I did'nt read your post well enough and immeadiately thought it was a hose connection problem. I've had no experience with things inside the transmission case under the seat. Frank. ....

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John Deere 4300 trouble with Power Beyond

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7188 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2007-06-25          143204


MArk, it sounds like the lever that acctuates the 3pth lift is out of adjustment, that's all.

If you have not been using the 3pth it is likely this has been the case for some time but you just didn't know it.

There is a relatively simple adjustment on most tractors that involves loosening the two jamb nuts on the shaft that comes out through the side of the rear end and moving the lever a little then re-tightening the nuts.

Of course you can also just not move the lever that last 1/2" that is the problem also. ;)

Best of luck. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1543 Moravia, NY
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2007-06-25          143216


It was my understanding that JD adjusts the 3PH level to insure a full lift of the hoe into mounting position. They said the laboring is the way it needs to be. Used to work perfect. Of course after 3 years the hoe needs a final boost from the stabilizer legs and boom to fully mount. Maybe I should take the time to readjust it.

I sometimes still stroke it all the way to the top. The relief valve unloads I slap myself in the forehead and say DUH! ....

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John Deere 4300 trouble with Power Beyond

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crunch
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 270 Niagara County, NY
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2007-06-26          143230


Harvey, I have the same problem. The owners manual states that the rockshaft should lift it all the way up so you can pin it into position. I took it back to the dealer and they said no - you have to use the stabilizers to get it to lift all the way. I then called the JD support center to check on the dealer who told me the dealer was correct and that it was a design flaw. You have to use the stabilizers. So I wouldn't go looking for an adjustment.

Markpee - once the backhoe is in position it should be pinned into place correct? So there should be no weight/stress on the hydraulic system once pinned. ....

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hardwood
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2007-06-26          143233


Crunch; I've never heard of using the stabilizers to lift to the pin holes. Mine goes right up with the rockshft and the pins slide in easily. It's been of and on a lot of times since it was first on the 4300 then on the 4310. Frank. ....

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crunch
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2007-06-26          143238


Frank, that is interesting. When I took it to the dealer saying it didn't lift to the pin holes - they didn't hear me right and tried mounting the backhoe over and over (using the stabilizers). When I came back in they said they couldn't find the problem. I told them it should lift in position with the rockshaft.

They got so angry with me they said they were going to charge me (while under warranty). I told them it stated in the user manual to bring it to the dealer for adjustment if it didn't mount with the rockshaft. So they backed off. Then I contacted the JD tech line and they agreed with the dealer that the stabilizers had to be used.

I spent a lot of time on this. Maybe I have the wrong dealer. I can tell you I would think again before I bought from them. So far my 4310 has not had a failure other than some wires that got caught in the brush. Thank heavens! ....

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crunch
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2007-06-26          143239


Frank, one difference is that you have the 48 hoe, I have the 47. Maybe there is a difference there. ....

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hardwood
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2007-06-26          143244


Crunch; You guys have had me thinking about this most of the afternoon. First off I'm not doubing anything you guys have said about using the stabilizers, I'd just never heard of that before. I was trying to remember how long I've had the 48, I bought a 4300 tractor shortly after they came out then bought the hoe the next summer then I traded the 4300 for my present 4310 about a year after they came out. The dealer transfered the hoe mounting brackets as part of the trade. I have no idea how many times the hoe has been on then off the tractor, it has been so simple to mount that I thought nothing of mounting it for a five minute job. I will admit to one tough mounting tho. The first time I too it off I set it down on an uneven gravel floor of an old shed. learned real fast to always park it on a level concreet floor and things work fine Frank.
PS; I did forget to mention that I always take out the six inch or so long bolt that the hoe seat pivots on to tip the seat up, then just take the seat off, it makes it lots simpler to reach the couplers you have to hook or unhook. ....

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crunch
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2007-06-27          143285


Frank, using the stabilizers is quick and easy. You may be right and my dealer may be screwed up but it's easy enough that I dropped it. But on your comment about taking the bolt on the seat out - my dealer moved the bolt to a different position or location so the seat can pivot differently. So I don't have to take the seat off anymore when I drop or add the backhoe. I can unhook or hook the hoses with the seat on. I'm not sure exactly what he did, I never really analyzed it - but it worked. Maybe Harvey can shed some light on this. ....

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markpee
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 26 Pine Bush, NY
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2007-07-09          143559


Now that I've had the hoe on and off a few times, I can see why the lever gets adjusted to keep power in the rockshaft arms. That hoe is heavy, and yes, I do need to use the stabilizers to load the hoe back on, as the arms don't quite make it so the pins go in smooth, but I only ned to adjust the holes millimeters...it works though.

A second thought I have on this whole issue is related to the level of the hydraulic fluid, as seen through the glass. Usually after I take the hoe off I either have too much fluid or too little. Should I add fluid when low and drain when too high? ....

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hardwood
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2007-07-10          143563


Markpee; I also find the sight glass gauge for the trans/hyd fluid kind of a Mickey Mouse affair. If the fluid had a bit more color it would be easier to judge whether you are seeing an empty glass or fluid in the glass. also it seems that if you don't park the tractor on the same spot every time you check the level it will be different too. I don't know if the new series are the same, but a good old fashond dipstick sure would be nice. Frank. ....

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John Deere 4300 trouble with Power Beyond

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2007-07-10          143566


If the sight glass is close to the full mark either way I don't worry about it. ....

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markpee
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 26 Pine Bush, NY
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2007-07-14          143702


Kwschumm - Thanks. BTW, I was looking at your pics....two questions. Did you drill holes in your ROPS for your worklights? I want to mount worklights, but am fearful of compromising the ROPS by drilling holes. Also, do you have a part number on the battery vent? ....

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kwschumm
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Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2007-07-14          143703


The worklight is a factory JD part that screws into existing holes and plugs into the existing harness. No muss, no fuss. They never did give me a part number on the battery vent but any JD dealer should know about them since they were common on some models. The dealer just had them laying around. ....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
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2007-07-15          143707


Crunch The rockshaft should pick the hoe into exact position. There are adjustment blocks on the hoe mounting hooks. I should take the time to readjust mine. You should not "HAVE" to use the stabilizers. Yet knowing this system sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. Many times one pin will go right in and I release just a little pressure from rockshaft and reapply and it picks into place.

The 47 and 48 are the same mounting.

I have had to use the stablizers also to get pins to go in. The problem with the adjusters out of adjustment is if the hoe leans back and now you have to use the boom to put pressure on the hoe to push it back to the tractor and use stabilizers to lift up.

I think my dealer had the hoe up and down several times adjusting the adjusters. It's done on a level floor, not sure why unless hoe setting crooked could effect the pick. Pick the hoe into place, try pins, set down adjust adjusters retry pins and so on. The biggest trick is lifting and pulling hoe up and forward at the exact point for pins to slide in.

I never did understand why the rockshaft had to be adjusted so it hit the releif valve. So I really can not answer that. But I do slap myself in the forehead everso often when I do it. It's less the 1/8 inch of lever travel to hit the relief valve. But 1st couple of years hoe mounted perfect.

I have also been guilty of not pinning anything and setting it on the ground for a quicky job and intending to put right back on... 2 weeks later the whole thing is flat on the ground. Talk about scratching head how am I gonna do this... Hydraulic lines won't reach... I did it but it was not purty to watch...

The seat is a real PITA!!! Unless your hoses are set exactly just so... I typically climb onto tractor and face the hoe for much easier access to the hoses.

As I type this and reread and mull it over I do not see why you could not adjust the adjusters after the hoe is pinned and use the stablizers and boom to lift hoe up and forward with rock shaft into relief setting loosen adjust and retighten adjusters. You'd only have to swap hoses a couple of times. I'll try that... And try to let you know.

....

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earthwrks
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2007-07-15          143726


My backhoe is dedicated so I'm not familar with you guys' situation exactly.

But from what I can tell reading the alignment problems of the pins, it seems that there are some very important things that may have been overlooked: tire pressure which varies all the time--and not just the rears either--the fronts have an even bigger impact on it. And load--as in "loadER" on the front is another factor. Even if the loader bucket is up and not loaded, that would raise the rear pin location. Conversely, if the bucket was down, that takes weight off the front wheels and that would lower the pin holes.

But I'm jis' sayin'... ....

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hardwood
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2007-07-15          143728


I too am still puzzled as to why you need the stabalizers to mount the hoe. Yes the hooks on the hoe frame that the three point pins lift from must be correctly adjusted, but other than that there just isn't anything else to go wrong. I just mounted mine last evening, it came right up holes almost go past a bit, just back off the three point lever a tic and the pins slide in freely.
EW; You are correct to a point with your misalignment theroy. either one of the rear tires can be a bit low without any effect on alignment, soon as the three point arm pins grab the hooks on the hoe frame it lines it'self up instantly before it gets anywhere near the position to put the pins in the top holes. Front to rear level of the tractor, loader on the ground,in the raised position don't matter. if both front tires wer completely flat would be too much, but again this mounting system is quite forgiving unless you sit the hoe off in an extremely side lean positon which I did once, yes then you have a problem. Frank.
....

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james123
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2007-10-14          146953


quick question I hope. I have a 4300 jd with a 48 backhoe attachment. The final drive broke were the two mounting bolts attach to it. Jd fixed it before under warranty. Now the warranty is out and it has happened again. Has anyone had this happen before? The dealeer said they have had it happen before and thought they would fix it. When the jd rep came out nad looked at it he won't fix it under warranty. Any info would really be appreciated it.
thanks james ....

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hardwood
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2007-10-14          146967


james123; The only information on broken axle housings I have is from here on the form. When the issue was first brought up I asked a friend of mine who is the small tractor/lawn and garden service foreman at a good sized Deere dealership about it, he said he had never heard of it happening. Do you know what you were doing when it happened, or was the problem found during a routine inspection? Was it the same housing and the same bolt holes both times? Tell us more if you can, perhaps someone here can help figure out what the cause is. Frank. ....

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John Deere 4300 trouble with Power Beyond

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james123
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2007-10-15          146988


Frank,
I found it on a rountine maintenance insp, just cleaning the tractor up. I live at the beach so the only digging is in sand, no hard clay or rocks. I really don't know when it happened this time? I'll find out today exactly what is wrong and how much it will be. The shop said somewhere around three thousand dollars they thought. I fing out exactly what parts are broken and the correct names. They are the same bolts and housing that jd fixed the first time. I thouht he called t he housing the final drive. Thanks alot james ....

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james123
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2007-10-15          146995


Frank, Hello again. I just got off the phone with the jd dealership and they call it the final drive assembly or axle housing assembly. The bolts that broke the case are the ones that mount on the side of the casing from where the backhoe mounts on. On the driver step side it sheared the bolt in half and took about a three inch section of the housing out. On the gear shift side it didn't break the bolt but took about a two inch hole out of the housing.It is the same bolts that sheared before. I bought the tractor brand new nad now only have 510 hours on it and it is always kept in hte garage. thanks alot james ....

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hardwood
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2007-10-15          146999


james; My suggestion would be to take the subframe completely off the tractor and compare it to a new or used subframe from another hoe that is the same subframe part number. Lay them side by side, is anything different between the two? Was it the correct subframe in the first place? Give a real good look at the assembly instructions for monting the subframe to your tractor, were some spacers, shims, or something left out that would prevent the subframe from pulling over tight to the final drive housing when the bolts were tightened down leaving the housing in affect held to the tractor by only the bolts that don't go thru the subframe? Without some very serious abuse this is almost an impossible happening, once maybe, twice not in a mllion years unless something was done wrong in the weld up of the subframe, it could have been sprung somethow during shipping? There has to be a logical reason, don't give up till you have found the culprit before installing another final drive housing. Frank. ....

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Murf
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2007-10-16          147014


Frank is onto something IMHO.

There is no reason why the axle housing would get broken when you're using a sub-frame mounted B/H as lightly as you say you are.

I can certainly see where some pretty tremendous loads can be transmitted to that assembly when you are trying to wrestle a boulder or big nasty stump out of the ground, but not for light digging in soft loose soil like sand.

One clue that is missing is you didn't say was which side of the mounting boss (the flat beefy spot where the bolts go in) broke off, top, bottom, front or back? This is important because it shows which direction the overload happened in.

In fact if you can manage a picture or two it would be very helpful in trying to figure out the cause of the damage.

Best of luck. ....

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james123
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2007-10-16          147019


Murf,
Thanks for the info. I all ready have it in the shop getting fixed. If you get between both wheels and look towards the back wheel it is the bolts on the bottom closes to the ground. The mount is a flat bar that is angles the best I can remeber as it comes down from the backhoe attachment. Frank mentioned that I need to check the shims and frame on it. I know that both sides didn't have any shims or washers going into the case. The dealership hasn't been helpful with the problem at all. They did mention that they have had two other tractors that have had the same problem with the same set up as mine.The jd rep came and looked at it but won't help out with the cost since it is out of warranty even though it has been in the shop before for the same problem but they fixed it that time under warranty. Thanks for all the info.!
james


....

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hardwood
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2007-10-16          147022


james; I just came in from crawling under the 4310 looking at how the subframe is attached, then got out my service manual and did more checking. If I understand you correctly the final drive housings you break are on the left hand side of the tractor, looking at the tractor from behind. There are 8 cap screws 6 long and 2 short ones plus two alignment pins holding the housing to the transmission case. Standing beside the tractor facing the left rear wheel the backhoe subframe is held on by four of the long cap screws at the eleven, one, three, and five o'clock positions, correct? As I understand you the capscrews in those four positions break leaving a chunk of the housing still attached to the transmission case by one long and one short cap screw at the bottom. The four capscrews that hold the subframe on should hae been longer bolts furnished with the subframe, were the proper bolts used, correct hardness, etc. The assembly instructions also state that loctite must be used on the threads when bolting the housing to the transmission case, was it used? I'm now quite suspicious that either the wrong bolts were used, not properly tourqued, no loctite, etc. You also mention that the same dealership has had several incidents of the same problem as yours, did the same tech. do all the subrame instalations that failed? With probably less than a one in ten thousand failure rate, how many of this model backhoe did the dealrship sell? I doubt the even the biggest of dealerships have sold more than a half dozen of the #48's on a 4000 series tractor, that is a horendeous failure rate for one dealership. Something is definitely fishy here with the proper assembly of these failed units. Don't give up, get to the "Head Shed" at Deere, there is a way right on their website to get there, I've been there done that, you will get results with a legitimite complaint. Tell them what's going on in a business man like manner and you will be surprised at the results you will get. Frank. ....

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james123
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2007-10-18          147091


Frank,
Thank you for all info.. I have called JD and e-mailed them, there standard answer is that it is out of warranty. The last e-mail said that I am suppose to tighten those bolts so basically it was my fault. I wrote back and asked them were in the manual does it state that and if that was the case they shouln't have fixed it the first time time since it was my fault. It looks like neither the dealer nor JD wants to step up and take fault with it. Its bad business on there part to have so few hours on the tractor. I'm waiting on another e-mail back from them and I'll see what they say. Thanks for your help
james ....

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Murf
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2007-10-18          147096


James, you hit on an interesting point just now.

I had a similar (but with a completely unrelated product) situation a number of years back, a product failed three times, the manufacturer cheerfully fixed the first time under warranty, the second did so also, but only after much prodding, then the third time, outside of warranty, flat out refused to do anything about it, period.

After much pushing, including a letter from my lawyer, the manufacturers rep. agreed to meet with me at the dealers. When I stated it was a defect, and clearly covered by warranty, it was their problem, the rep. argued it was not and demanded to see the maintenance records claiming it had never been a defect, but a lack of maintenance, the bolts were supposed to be re-torqued twice after installation to prevent slack caused by use after installation.

At that point I pulled out the owner's manual and asked him to point out to me the section that said the torque had to be checked. He pulled out the INSTALLATION MANUAL and showed it to me.

I laughed, and turned to the dealer, and said "So it's NOT WARRANTY, but YOU are PAYING not me!!"

The dealer had done the installation, but left me the installation manual.

I cannot be guilty of not doing something when I didn't know had to be done..........

The dealer did indeed pay, and then made a point of handing me the inst. manual and making sure it came back twice to have the mounting bolts checked and re-torqued also.

Best of luck. ....

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james123
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2007-10-23          147261


Murf,
Thanks for all the info. and help. I spoke with the JD rep and they won't do anything with the tractor, standard answer is that it is out of warranty. I must say they don't stand behind there products even though there is vey low hours on it. . I know this year or next will be my last with a JD. They won't have to worry about it happening again to me. Thanks for the info., you guys have been alot more helpful than Jd. Take care
james ....

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