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thetool1
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4 Hastings, MI
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2005-02-18          106339


Have been looking a purchasing a NH TC 40 or 40D. My main concern is the loss of horse power at the rear tires with a Hydrostatic transmission, as compared with the shuttle shift.
MY question is, is there a small or large difference. The NH will be moving a lot of dirt from one place to another. Thanks for any advice!

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5113 Northern Nevada
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2005-02-18          106369


Every transmission soaks up some amount of horsepower.

I read recently that an HST can absorb as much as 40 percent. Based on owning nearly identical tractors with two different transmissions, I would have to believe that figure.

The real question is: even with the power losses, is there enough juice left to do the job? In my case the answer is, Yes.

The convenience, and ease of use is well worth any potential downsides with an HST. I will not go back to a gear tranny. ....

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rudedog
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 20 N. California
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2005-02-18          106373


Not sure how accurate it is, but a dealer told me that HST typically derates output in the neighborhood of 3-5 HP.

There are a lot of variables, not the least of which is how much HP gross you have to start with. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4294 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2005-02-18          106374


thetool1 & Mark,

That is a very good question. For instance, my 4410 is rated at 35 gross hp, and 29 pto hp. To my knowledge Deere does not rate these tractors draw bar hp which is what it appears you are talking about. I was not able to find any Nebraska test results for my 4410 but I would imagine that the draw bar hp would be about the same. I have read articles (see below) that the 4410 draw bar hp is 30 hp but the article does not provide any data verification. Worst case assuming 29 hp; that would be a 6 hp drive train power loss or about 20%. 40% sounds kinda high but I could see that if you look at it from the view point of pto hp AND draw bar hp simultaneously. In most cases we are using the pto on our tractors when we are using them.

In any case, I agree with Mark; so far, I have pretty much had the juice to get what I needed to do done and on a VERY few occasions had to slow up to allow power recovery.

It would be a VERY interesting piece of data to see just exactly what each tractor did loose with respect to pto and draw bar hp. You don't seem many machines anymore with a belt drive on them which was another hp rating factor years ago. ....


Link:   John Deere 4410 Compact Tractor

 
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thetool1
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4 Hastings, MI
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2005-02-18          106376


Thanks for the replay everybody, I figured it had to be a fairly large persentage. I realize that probobaly nobody runs dyno test on tractors, not much of a market. But it does make a stronger case for the shuttle shift.
I was wondering Drankin if you could remember where you read the info on transmissions ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2005-02-18          106378


Kubota B7800: 30 gross and 22 at the PTO, a 27 percent loss and one might assume that turning even more gears and wheels would reduce it even further.

Kubota BX2230: 22 gross and 16.7 at the PTO, 24 percent loss.

BX1500: 15/10.6 = 30 percent loss. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2005-02-18          106379


Also: there should be a clue if you look at the difference between the pto rating on the HST vs. Shuttle. ....

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4294 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2005-02-18          106384


I checked on the Nebraska Tractor Test Lab website and they do not test tractor below 100 hp for draw bar hp. ....

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-02-18          106385


The basic formula for geared tractors is
engine hp - 14% = PTO hp
PTO hp - 14% = drawbar hp
Shuttle shifts fall into this category.

I'm under the impression that HST refers only to transmission, and that the PTO drive train is still geared. If true, you should be able to subtract 14% from the PTO hp to arrive at HST drawbar hp.

//greg// ....

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beagle
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2005-02-18          106387


Hydros do eat up a little more engine horsepower. I believe a typical hydro will reduce drawbar horsepower about 5-10% more than a gear. The larger the gross engine horsepower, the lower the % loss at the drawbar.

If they posted drawbar horsepower instead of gross engine horsepower, we would all be driving bigger machines. ....

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2005-02-18          106393


Yes a hydro will consume some of your drawbar hp. How much of the time will you be asking your tractor to give it's maximium drawbar hp? If most of the time then gear is for you, If seldom then a hydro likely won't be much less efficent. Personaly I like gears (12/12 Reversers) for shuttle loader work, but that's just my preference. Drive them both, buy what you like best. Best of luck. Frank. ....

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2005-02-18          106414


I move a lot of dirt with my HST equipment (NH TC33D, NH LS180 skid steer, backhoe loader, riding trencher)--and HST is the only way to go especially for repetitive loader work. HST may use a little more power, but you can get better use of the power curve.

In my opinion the TC's really aren't a true hydrostatic trans in that they use a hydraulic pump to spin a hydraulic motor which then transmits power through a standard gearbox transmission. "Shifting" is done through the "range selectors." In my opinion true hydrostats don't have gears or transmissions. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2005-02-19          106445


Thetool1
Lets refer to your original point
( "" My main concern is the loss of horse power at the rear tires with a Hydrostatic transmission, as compared with the shuttle shift.
The NH will be moving a lot of dirt from one place to another."")
If your main concern is loss of power, you need to ask yourself if if your going to push the limits of the hp alot and if so why? If you are and cost is a factor then maybe you should look into the gear and give up the conveinance of the hydro. I think if your already doughting the tractors capability to do what you want it to maybe you should be looking at the tc45. There is so little difference in price that its not worth it to undersize yourself and get a machine that you will fight all the time to do your job you originally spent 20K on to do. (I learned that here, on tractor point) LOL
If the trani is the reason you ask this for then you will definately not be happy with a gear everytime you would of liked to have cruise controll and the extra time you need for gear switching.
IMO, If you can't afford more tractor, and you plan on pushing the hp limit often than its a no brainer, go with the gear. Your hydro will not help you out if your over its capability.
The rule of thumb (IMO) Go atleast one size in tractor larger than you think your going to need (If the size of the tractor does not put prohibiting efects on your work place. Of course if it is a dedicated machine for one job only and that job will never change then buy what you need now and not what will possible change in the next 30 years.
(Did I confuse you yet?)
PS also forgot to throw in the time factor, and if you are making money doing the moving of this dirt. From what I hear the hydro will cut time just a bit. ....

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BrendonN
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 89 Central Kansas
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2005-02-19          106451


For a neat comparison of gear vs hydro drawbar horsepower, a person could look at the Nebraska tests for the older IH tractors that were available both ways. For example, the IH 826 gear drive (test #1045) had 92.9 max PTO hp and 78.9 max db hp. The hydro version of the same tractor (test #1046) had 84.7 max PTO and 61.4 max db hp. Quite a difference, but hydro technology has come a long way since the 1960's.

The other thing to consider is that the lighter a tractor is for it's engine power, the greater the ground speed needs to be to develop maximum drawbar power since traction becomes a limiting factor. Most of the smaller compacts that were tested at Nebraska developed maximum drawbar power at speeds of 5 to 6 mph which is faster than appropriate for many utility jobs. Also, many of the tractors tested were heavily ballasted to gain traction. For example, the Kubota L-235 4WD had its weight increased from 2435 to 3715 pounds for the drawbar tests.

Basically, at slower speeds or when traction is limited, the maximum drawbar horsepower is not really a limiting factor for what many CUT's are used for. Actual pulling force would be a factor, but here again at slower speeds this is limited more by traction than by torque available at the wheels. Assuming that traction is the limiting factor, a hydro will pull just as hard as a gear drive, all else being equal. ....

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thetool1
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4 Hastings, MI
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2005-02-19          106462


I think with the help of everybody, I have decided to go with the shuttle shift. I will be trading in my 2003 NH tc-30, for a TC 40, with a 16a loader, folding rops, r4 tires, 72" quick attach bucket and a deluxe 3 point. ....

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