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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-01-08          103817


In my state, right after the aggressive military action in Iraq and into the re-building phases the price of OSB went thru the roof. I believe it was because of supply and demand but may be wrong? Now I am faced with a question on what to do. With the recent devestation with the psunami (spelling bad?) Does anyone have any thoughts on if our price for the OSB products will rise again? The last time the price went up it was around $6 a sheet to begin with and got as high as $22. That is huge. I will more than likely have to move and build a new house this spring/summer. I dont believe in walls made with foam and in my opinion the house will have osb all around it including the flooring t&g. I was thinking about buying the osb NOW and if something changes (like I go back to work) before the move is finalized I would bring it back or sell on the side to others at a great price)
Anyone here think the same as me and think the price is going to skyrocket? Do you think we will not be sending osb over to them for the rebuilding? Kinda in a bind here since the price of my new house may be 2-5K more if I dont buy and it does go up that high again. That increase wont break me of course but it may a great way to save a large amount of cash fast?
Thanks

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2005-01-08          103827


I would not get to hung up on one item,have you checked the price of plumbing supplies lately?
I think this would be true of many item in a new house.
Currently paying 22.00 bucks a sheet for 1/2" 5 ply fir plywood. That is down from almost 30.00.
Guess I just don't like that osb.
If you have a place to sell, it should be all relative, that's to say your appraisal should reflect the cost of
replacment. ....

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brokenarrow
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2005-01-09          103846


Grinder
I see your into carpentry, so I respect and value your input. I used to love working on projects and building (on the side) also. The last house I built in 2001 on my property in northern Wisconsin just wrung me out. Except for help with the obvious (two-three man jobs) I had been the carpenter,plumber,electrician etc.) on the whole job. We were not zoned/inspected at the time and it was all legal. It was fun for ahilw but that 5 hour one way drive every weekend drained me (then working from sun up till midnight every day while there) I finished it in one summer. By no mean am I profesional but know enough to do a superior job. Since I am a tool maker by trade I had to learn that wood is not steel and sometimes you need to go with the flow (grain), LOL.

I also had use 100% 5 ply plywood on that house for I too was not a fan of osb. Since that time I have changed my opinion of osb 100% or 180 degrees. Walls and roofing especially. I had a few friends up there when nailing sheathing material. Big mistake! Seemed that
one group of guys decided not to nail as often as I would.
You can see obvious spots where buckleing will occur on the ply. Since then I have had the oportunity to work on a few jobs that used only osb. I changed my opinion on the stuff and after doing alot of research on the process of manufactureing it, I have been using it exclusively since.
Question for you?
1.What dont you like about it?
2.Since I really have no choice about building this new house this year (or so it looks anyway) the cost of materials is something I have excepted. Its this shipping of large quantitiys of our manufactured products overseas and then we get it stuck in our butts on price that just burns me. Can you elaborate on your last comment to me? I seem to of lost you? The only reason I would buy this wood now is because I think we are going to see a huge short term spike again in price on it. Only reason I would ell it and not use it would be if I go back to work before the frost bubbles out of the ground. I am not a fan of returning things but will if I could not use it and or find a buyer that needs it for a cut price (of the current market). Was wondering. Thanks for your input, being unemployed right now funds are starting to tighten up and without breaking into savings a expense like this will kill my slush funds. Have not decided either way yet so I really respect you guys opinions here on this topic. Sometimes I dont see the forrest thru my glasses?
Thanks alot
Tom ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2005-01-09          103849


Brokenarrow
I do use both depending on the job and several other issues.
Not the least of which are customer,price,time of year(weather).
I perfer plywood mostly because of it's history, I have my doubts about wrapping your house in plastic too.(vinyl)
I haven't worked on any 50-100 yr. old houses that have been
built using these products? I have worked on some younger ones where the osb has swelled and the nailing has popped.
Mostly within 18" of the ground. I have read that technically you are suppose to treat any cut edges before
application, I have seen why. You will notice that on lifts of OSB the edges are all painted. Also you are suppose to space it 1/8 in. between sheets for exspansion.This is a pain in the ass. .That's why nobody does it. This may have added to the warping you mention. We nail all our sheet goods at a min of 6",16 OC and 4" in the builings corners.
One other major issue for me is the weight of it,as we use only 5/8 on the roofs,1/2 " on walls all 16oc. When your 45 years old,with two back surgery's behind you, it is a major consideration.
I also don't like the way it takes the nail, quite often the head won't penatrate the surface,(it has a hard wax added to it for weather protection) and you have to go back over it with that thing called a hammer.Love that paslode! I quess I'm just from the old school and I wonder why so many houses have mold problems?
I know this info is biased but it is worth reading.

Ever thought of moving to Maine? I would think a good tool and die man could find a job easily. Also lot's of RN job's and Lobster is only $5.00 a lb.
Best of luck to you and yours. ....


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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
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2005-01-09          103850


I'll be the first to admit that I don't like OSB either, but when we uilt our house they talked me out of ply for the floor. We put down 3/4 OSB and it seems to be doing fine without a squeak yet. The roof sheathing OSB however got rained on before the tar paper got rolled out and you can still pick out the swelled seams from the road on a frosty morning. Frank. ....

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brokenarrow
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2005-01-09          103852


Thanks for taking the time guys to give me answers. I too have found the use of nail guns a must. When I built that house I was talking about my buddy (ARG) shamed me into NOT buying a framing nailer. Said, " AWE what the heck you need that for, we can do it better with out! You gat a good feel for how you set the nail" Well as you read, the few guys I had helping me must of had a tired arm and left out a few nails. I had used ALL plywood on the house.
When I built the garage I went and bought the framing and roofing nailers! NEVR again will I swing a hammer on a bigger job. The OSB (you are correct) has a tendancy to recieve a nail head at different depths with the nail gun at times. Where the nail gun was a life saver was when I installed the T-11 siding on the framing! Used the coated ring shank nails WOW! My fingers all still had their nails on after the whole garage was done! I had to re-pound a few but it was still better than trying to pound a nail into that HARD material. I know OSB has come a long long way since its inception and I will assume it will continue to improve. Around here all the builders use it it (especially for floors)
Funny you said that about Maine, and I wont let my oldest daughter read that. She kinda wants to move, tired of the semi-city life we have here and loves the place in northern Wis. My youngest daughter used to love it up there also but has just stated she dont want to leave her friends (TOO BAD!)LOL. She is 14. My oldest child is a son and could care less since he will be away at college anyway. What you said about Maine? My oldest daughter wants to move there and live there (not to mention go to college there) If I blew that buy her she would die! I think this summer/spring we were planning a trip to Maine. My wife wants to go on one last trip with the family before all of them get too old and have their own lifes. We are considering Maine, Any suggestions on what to do or see?
Thanks again guys! ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2005-01-09          103859


Brokenarrow,
Maine is great,I hesitate to say that as all the people that will read this. But we love it here and the quality of live is the best.
There are endless things to see and do,if you like being outside.
I have been in fourteen countries and from Fla. to Calif.
and now spend twelve mo. a year right here.
We are into camping in the summer,we leave our Camper at the campground for the summer and go up north every weekend.
The crime rate is among the lowest in the country and the public schools and university of Maine are among the highest rated. Check out the Maine laptop progam, this is where the state/apple is suppling every 7th grader a laptop computer.
We also have several Ivory leauge colleges as well,Colby,Bowdin.
I'll send you this Maine tourism site but also check out Maine Today .com That is the newspaper site for the State.
If you would give me some indication of what you guy's like to do,I will be glad to try and make some suggestions on where and when.Not sure where you are in Mich. But coming across Canada there is a lot less "crap" to drive through.
....

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beagle
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2005-01-09          103865


Just paid $11.99 for 17/32 OSB at Home Depot on Monday. That is down from the $22.99 high of about 3 months ago. The hurricanes really drove the price of flat products up this summer. It seems to be settling down some. I'm not a big OSB fan, but it does have it place for certain applications. I would not use it for roof sheeting, or anywhere that moisture and/or condesation are possible. It has come a long way, but it still isn't as stable as plywood. ....

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Ardician
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2005-01-09          103877


I just bought a load of 7/16" OSB at Lowe's for $9.99 a sheet. Manufactured by Georgia-Pacific. Couldn't believe my good fortune when I saw the price. It just so happened that I was ready to put the interior wall and ceiling covering on my workshop and was looking for the cheapest sheet-goods that would do a respectable job. Was going to use plywood, but decided that at that price I could slap it up and paint it and it would do fine. I was very surprised at the price since building materials have gone through the roof since the hurricanes. Maybe the glut of storm timber on the market is trickling down to us consumers? Anyway, I need 50 sheets but could only carry 25 so I'm going back as soon as possible for the rest before they change their minds. ....

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grinder
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2005-01-10          103883


Be sure your not buying waferboard thinking it is osb.
New housing starts have taken a big drop in Nov.nationwide,
this could be part of the reason.Another is the increase of plants that manufacture it.This article I found sums it up best for me.
The most important point made in it (for me) is that it is money in the builders pocket on bid job's.
Of course these guy's(builder's) are going to tell you it's as good or better.
They just built a $300,000 dollar house next door to me
and covered it with 7/16 waferboard,on 2x4 trusses set 2'oc. These poor people got
screwed! House looks great,but let's see what a couple of
Maine winter's does to it.
Beware folk's!
Interesting note,this article was written in 1997.
The "edge swell" is still a problem. ....


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kwschumm
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2005-01-10          103893


When we built I insisted on plywood exterior and roof sheathing. I wanted it for subfloors, too, but the builder talked me into "gold" sealed edge OSB claiming it would be flatter and quieter. His claims were generally true, but when our mudroom sink overflowed and flooded the mudroom all the cut edges swelled and transmitted through the linoleum. Now we see bumps in the floor. If I were to do it again I'd probably use plywood instead of OSB for subfloors, at least in wet areas. ....

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brokenarrow
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2005-01-10          103894


This is great conversation! Unreal the difference in locations and practices. I can not remember seeing anything but osb on a job site around here in a long time.
The last 7-10 years (guess) the standard is to wrap the corners and windows with OSB and the whole rest of the house has only 2x4 or 2x6 and like I said before that insulation board (like a celotex) material. They then put the vinle over the top and call it a house. I am not kidding you (since I lost a lot of pounds anyway) I could break into a house with a heavy duty utility knife. Think about it the next time a heavy storm blows thru with a tornado or the such. You have your bottom plate bolted to the foundation, every 16" a 2x4. On top of that you have a soft easily split siding, a piece of insulation board (fiber/foam crap) then maybe 1/2" drywall. Ask me (And this is only in my opinion) It dont sound very secure or even safe in the event of a big weather event. Guys, I can say this about that with out ripping on someone elses house because my house I live in down in Southern Wisconsin is built that way. When I had it built I did not know much anything else about the standard practices and that is one thing I never really looked into. I was furious (with my self) for not knowing that since I was ontop of many other things. Never gave it a thought when the papers were signed. Since that time I have built my own house (top to bottom all utility's) myself. Whee I built this other house was in a area or Northern Wi. that had next to no red tape and rules of inspections. I felt comfortable with my self and ability so I went ahead and did it. Dont get me wrong, I dont want this to sound like something it is not. My house up there is very simple. Basically a rectangle with walls and a with a 5x12x2.5 ceiling/roof. I have had folks say to me after seeing it, WOW I know where I am going when a tornado comes again.
1/2" ply on the outside walls, 2x6 studs,5/8" (sanded)
T-111 on the inside. Yes that is sanded! All 98 sheets of it. It is on the cieling and walls. I went with that for a few reasons (I know it is not common) This place is 312 miles from where I live, I was doing this on weekends
(I only have 2 weeks off a year vacation). My initial intent was to convert it back into a attatched garage to the new house I was going to build after I moved in a few years. My wife wanted only a toilet and shower, sink in the kitchen. She would be happy with that as a get away cabin till we moved. One thing led to anouther and the house is pretty cool trimmed all out with block pine boards, I left the t-111 unsealed and it looks real good. Most people think its T&G vertical. All seames even on roof are covered with a trim or version there of. I made my own for the cieling. Anyway, time was an issue for me and I thought it was a great way to get the look of wood in it, shorten up the install time, and in the end have a garage that had finished walls. LOL. Well after the bathroom went in and the 2 bedrooms, the huge picture windows along with shelves around the whole primeter of the house not to mention a ton of other cool nooks and cranny items, this place will never be stripped out and turned into a garage. Dont look like much from the outside (right now) just vinyl sidding, but that was because I figured it would be changed out later to match what ever I built onto it. The inside is really nice.
So (getting back to my point sorry) with all that wood around the house including a separate wood 2x6 walled bathroom inside of the structure, most think it would be a great storm shelter and would have to be lifted off the foundation. The house is so far back in the woods and has such a great location I love it. Thing is, it is not far enough off the 2 lane highway for me. I may re-build a whole new place a 1/2 mile back in off the highway and let the kids have that place for a second home when back from college. (I cant stand hearing the trucks on the highway)

Grinder
Thanks so much for the info and the offer. I will get back to you on a later date. We just talked about the trip last night and are still deciding. Maine is at the top of the list for 2 of the 5 memebers of my family (me and my daughter) My wife dont care where we go so the other 2 have to way in before we decide. I really do appreciate you giving me that though, I will look at the sites later tonight.
well since it is my birthday today, my wife tells me I need to get my ass off the computer and get the garage cleaned out (again) then start mudding the drywall in the basement room I built, (never finished the outside of it and she tells me I have the time so get going since we may be selling in a few months she wants me to finish off all the loose ends at this house! LOL. OK DEAR!!!!!
Thanks guys
PS, I will looki into the home depot here today! Dont know if they still have the NO NO NO going or not but that would be great if they did ....

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JParker
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2005-01-10          103931


Please clear up one thing.

I thinkI am familiar with OSB and Plywood. But what is wafer board? Is it what we call particle board around here?

Particle board = Big sawdust / saw chips + glue

OSB - Thin pieces of wood like a plane would produce + glue (2-3" x 1-2" each)

What does wafer board look like? ....

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lucerne
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2005-01-10          103953


I have always been a boarding board or plywood builder. There has been a new product out for a few years called Advantec. Everyone was always after me to get with the program and use it. I though,just another wafer board that will swell and fall apart. Finally I tried it on my own new house after asking many many questions about it. I had the first floor decked over in the fall and it sat all winter and spring with plastic over it. I didn't know that the plastic the guys layed had holes in it. The Advantec stayed wet all fall froze all winter and was wet, I mean wet all spring. When I took the plastic off I thought I was going to have to replace the decking. It was just like the day it was layed. This is the most incredible sheithing I have ever seen. Always flat, never have to worry about water,consistant thickness. It comes in 1/2 inch for walls, 5/8 t+g for roofing and 3/4 t+g for decking. Never use plywood again, it would have been completely delaminated if it went through what this did. In a bathroom for lanolium, you should lay a layer of 1/4 luan plywood nailed every 4 inches with ring shank,leaving a small space between the sheets and fill with spackle before laying the sheet goods. ....

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grinder
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2005-01-11          103965


Lucerne
Advantec is OSB. It is the trade name made by Huber.
I have recently used that, only to have minor,1/8 in. or less joint swells on a roof. I find it very heavy and you
are suppose to gap it 1/8 in all around. That is not an
easy nut to crack on a large project.
As far as luan is concerned,I believe you will find the
flooring manufactures no longer warranty their product's
(tile/Vinyl ) over it. They want you to use multiply,
very similar, without voids.

Looking at my 3/4 advantec subfloor today on my current project.
ALL the joints have swelled! I am done with OSB!!
My 5 ply fir plywood walls and roof are fine. ....

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Ardician
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2005-01-30          105271


For all who are interested, there is a good article comparing OSB and plywood in the latest issue of Fine Homebuilding magazine. ....

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dklopfenstein
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2005-01-30          105275


My father-in-law just bought 4 sheets of treated 5/8 inch plywood at a local lumber yard (southern Indiana)to the tune of $36 a sheet. More than $150 for 4 sheets after tax...ouch! ....

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brokenarrow
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2005-02-03          105465


I dont know about all the way around but I use the plywood clips on roofs. How about you grinder? Grinder, this is amazing to me your dislike for the osb. Are we talking about the same product? After it is nailed down I have seen osb out in the elements that normally would ruin plywood.
When you buy 5 ply plywood. Is this 5 ply because it is 5/8" thick. I bought some 1/2" 3 ply and about puked when I saw the pile after a few weeks under a tarp. I dont think I ever saw 5 ply 1/2" Is there such a thing? That may be the difference in our opinions on plywood.?
Hmmm Now I will need to do some research on this. Just went thru a very expensive new houseing subdivision (thry start at $350K) Not a sheet of plywood at any house. They still use that foam board (insulboard) crap even on the huge expensive places. That along with osb on the roofs and corners (around windows also) ....

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grinder
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2005-02-04          105511


Yes, The way I read it is you are suppose to gap it 1/8 " all around.
Now can you imagine doing that on a large roof and staying sq.?
Three ply would be about the cheapest crap you could buy.
I use 5 ply fir 1/2 5/8 3/4. The grains are alternated in assembly and glue up.
OSB vs Plywood has a great deal to due with the time of year
and how fast you can get it covered. Either product should be asap. Yes, OSB is weather resitant until the surface is
penetrated or cut. I have noticed the swelling of the edges
where I have nailed it or cut it. Depending on the intended use, this can be a problem. example. OSB with uneven edges
will need another layer of a leveling product (luan type)etc
before installing a finished floor. 3/4 5ply fir plywood
underlayment and your ready to go with most floors.
There are several flooring products that are not warrantied over OSB.
The uneven edges will also transfer to your asphalt shingles
if the roof gets to wet before they are installed.
When using it on sidewalls for sheathing there are other issues to contend with. The one that worries me the most
is creating another vapor barrier on the outside wall due to the use of resins and wax in the OSB, Plyood does have
resin as well but do to the nature of the wood needed to make it(tight grains of large tree's vs chips from fast growing (10 yrs to harvest) trees used for osb and other chip board products. The plywood will dry out better.
So that any moisture getting past your vapor barrier
INSIDE your house will be able to get through the plywood easier. There have bveen lawsuits settled on this issue with some types of siding. Mold !
Google Plywood VS OSB I found a couple of unbiased university studies that were interesting.
Remember this, most decisions in building are profit motivated, especially in large subdivisions.
Check out building sciences .com American plywood assc. ....

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Ardician
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2005-02-05          105523


The decision that I made to use OSB as interior wallcovering in my workshop was not profit motivated, but I admit that it was cost motivated. I don't have the worries that have been noted about vapor barrier interference or swelling from moisture because I am just using it inside. In my climate, I would not use it outside the walls or ceiling. ....

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brokenarrow
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2005-02-05          105530


Grinder
I figured you were using 5 ply 1/2" The 3 ply is like you said, crap. Unfortunaltey if you go to the large chains around me 5 ply is a special order in most circumstances. Yes, my bad experiances is with the 3 ply.
Wonder if the standard practices are different in our locations?
....

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brokenarrow
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2005-02-05          105531


http://www.umass.edu/bmatwt/publications/articles/osb_vs_plywood.html
I see your point. This is a good read also. It really looks like your instalation and application needs to be picked in the right clinate and proper way of handling. Some pro's but a few more cons? ....

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grinder
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2005-02-05          105540


The big box stores only stock items that return a min. profit. I knew a guy in management who told me that.
I believe it. Those stores are impossible to deal with.
....

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AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 462 Troy OH
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2005-02-05          105568


I don't build houses but have done the occasional remodeling job, In reading your interesting discussion I had a few questions:
What (originally) did OSB stand for? It occured to me that the heat transfer on the houses that were sheathed with the foam board might well be lower than using wood, and perhaps a bit quieter (outside noise) too, with the way fuel prices are going that may become very attractive? I assume it will stand up to a regular severe storm, but not a tornado, but then again would a wooden sided house stand up to a tornado? I guess what I really want to learn from those of you who are in the know is what are the factual advantages and disadvantages of the foam sheathing. ....

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HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 121 Colorado
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2005-02-05          105571


OSB is short for "Oriented Strand Board" - It's different than the foam sheathing, or the black insul-board.

Around here, you won't find anything except OSB on any house (except ICF :) ). The cheapo builders use it at the corners, windows, and doors, and then the black crap everywhere else. The "good" (and really, all) builders use 3/4" OSB on the subfloors, 1/2 on the exterior, and 1/2 or 5/8 on the roof.

When I was doing my envelope this summer, OSB had gone up so much that doing ICF (Insulated Concrete Forms, Foam forms filled with concrete on site) concrete walls, even with the expensive steel prices, was CHEAPER than 2x6 stickframing.

Of course, after I bought 3/4 OSB for my roof (lumberyards don't even stock enough plywood to roof a house here) the price fell like $7 a sheet the next week.

Next time I get done buying building materials, I'll post here so everyone knows that they will be on sale soon. ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2005-02-06          105578


Annbrush
I am not familiar with using foam board as sheathing and can not comment on it. I can't imagine it actually? ....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 677 central Maine
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2005-02-06          105579


Huckmeat
I was reading a flooring contractors forum and the comment
there was that all the quality home builders use nothing but plywood?
I am not sure what the answer is, so I will stick with the plywood, it has a history.
Interesting, the different perspectives from around the country.
....

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HuckMeat
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 121 Colorado
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2005-02-06          105583


For me, it was kind of moot- I was pouring 1.5" of gypsum based concrete over it anyway... The OSB seems to be doing great. With the concrete there, it makes for a VERY solid floor. I'd be surprised if it ever squeaked.


The route I would have gone, had I to do over again (and found this product before I did my engineering work) is a product called speedfloor. Steel trusses are set in pockets in yor foundation, grouted in, on 4' centers. Lock bars are installed between the trusses, and OSB/plywood is layed down between the trusses. 4" of concrete is poured, cured, and then the lock bars are knocked out, OSB falls down, and you have NO wood in your floor. :)

With wood being the quality it is these days, I tried to use engineered wood products everwhere I could - My LVL ledgers are a lot stronger than 2x12, and don't warp/twist themselves to pieces after I install them.

Only my interior wall partitions/framing were "regular" lumber, and I had to replace nearly 20 studs because they would twist/warp as we were installing mechanicals. It was enough of a pain (and around here, at nearly $4 a stud, expensive) enough that I'm designing the barn/shop I'm going to build this summer without any wood, except the T*G Pine I'm putting inside the barn walls. Does anybody else find the same problems with the lumber in their area now-a-days?

Of course, a whole new thread would be the new pressure treated wood. Not only will it twist and split itself apart, it will eat your nails doing it! :) ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-02-06          105596


Ann
The oriented strandboard board used to be called chip board around here. The difference now (one of many) is they call it oreiented strand because NOW they "orient" the strands or(wood shavings/chips). This gives it a sheet like effect of plywood but enables the use of smaller new growth trees. Along with glue improvements and others it has come a long way. I am learning alot from new searches and found the area of the country the trees come from (specie) makes a big difference also. Sorry go to go, take a kid to a band concert. ....

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