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 02-02-2007, 00:59 Post: 139473
tetloader



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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

Thought this may be helpful. I went into the CHP (Calif Hghway Patrol) and spoke with an officer about transporting my CUT and implements. I showed him (via a sketch) what I was doing and he said I was OK, and confirmed that a 4-POINT tiedown is required. This means four chains and four binders, each to the frame (or equiv) of the tractor. He also liked the idea of web straps across the loader and the LX5.

One long chain, hooked to the trailer on one side, wrapped thru the tractor (around frame or axle) and hooked to the other side of the trailer with a load binder is NOT a two point tiedown. It's a one point, so I am told. This makes sense because if you loose one of the chain points at the trailer, you loose the integrity of the whole chain.

I see some scarry stuff out on the highway, like forklifts tied down with one chain wrapped around one axle, or thru the forklift. One snafu and that lift is bouncy into someone's windsheild.






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 02-02-2007, 09:19 Post: 139481
Murf

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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

I'm going to respectfully suggest that the CHP officer you spoke with is slightly mis-informed.

Load safety is a good thing, but common sense, logic and physics are better.

"Cargo security" as they call it, is covered by both the FMCSA (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration) regs. (ยง 393 mostly) and State laws, but in every case I've seen, the State laws either refer directly to the ICC reg. or are merely a photocopy of it. This is for uniformity. There are lots of differences, as to axle spacing, load limits, etc., but nothing that affects a CUT on a trailer behind a pickup.

What the reg's say is that the load must be "adequately and securely" bound to the trailer.

A 4 point hookup is somewhat of a wives tale. If the left side comes loose, the load will be PULLED out of position by the fact that the right side has no opposing and equalizing force.

The regulations require that enough "approved" binding devices (chains & binders or straps) be used to adequately restrain the load.

That means the "safe working load" of the binders, times the number of binders, must exceed the weight of the object so secured. Period.

I have had arguements on the side of the highway with enforcement officers about this all across North America. I have a photocopy of the FMCSA regs in each of our trucks, several times they saved our bacon.

Best of luck.






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 02-02-2007, 11:57 Post: 139486
harvey



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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

The tie downs must exceed the weight of what is tied down. Does not matter if it is a small lawn tractor with one strap over the platform, or a 40,000 lb load of pipe with 6 rated straps going side to side.

The tie downs must be certified and weight rated.

On our big Milling machines 100,000+ lbs we have 8 points (4 each side) with 1/2 inch hi tensil chain and binders. It takes that many chains and binders to exceed the weight of the machine. Plus lighter chains over the elevators.

A CUT with 2 little 5,000 lb chains side to side and 2 binders is AOK. As long as the CUT is not more than 10,000 lbs. Plus you have to seperately tie dowm the bucket and anything else attached to the CUT.

The best source for correct information is the actual STATE Level Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit. They are the ones that set up DOT inspection stations on the interstate or other state highways. They are the same ones who will inspect the commercial vehicle after a serious or fatal accident. NEVER ask a local cop about Commercial Vehicle stuff they are so misinformed they are libel to tell you anything.

We have several encounters every season with Local Yokelles who spent a week in Commercial Vehicle classes. YUP you got it. I have NO RESPECT FOR THESE WANNABES. They are ok at regular traffic stops and protecting citizens but not Commercial Vehicle enforcement.

I have the UTMOST RESPECT for the State Level Commercial Vehicles guys who are professionals and know their stuff. I have never minded a truck inspection by these professionals.






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 02-02-2007, 14:46 Post: 139493
earthwrks

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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

I get so tired of trying to comply with DOT regs. I wanted to go next door to Louisiana to do bobcat work coming from Mississippi. I called the LA DOT and got four different people and four different answers. The last guy was the local level guy at the weigh station. He said "I'll tell what we don't enforce and what the law says. From there it's up to you". When everything is up for intrepretation, and then add to it selective enforcement--it makes it very stressfull to do right without feeling like the next bad move you make may be the "expensive" one.






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 02-02-2007, 16:23 Post: 139497
harvey



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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

EW as Murf stated it is a federal standard. You stated the the biggest assache for trucks moving on the highways is local cops and their experience.

I'd like to agree it's local interpertation. BUT it is not. When trucks haul freight on flatbeds tied down thru various states from Texas to New York it shows the federal sdandard.

IMO the only qualified personell to inspect a secured load is the Commercial Vehicle Enforcement Unit.

Unless you pull into a weight station or lose part of a load enroute you will "mostlikely" will never get questioned. I have seen them drive by and look the load over very closely.

As I stated earlier Local Cops and many of the State Troopers basicaly do not know the correct law, they do have a basic working knowledge.

We had a truck with a level 1 inspection receive a Commercial Vehicle award sticker on truck and trailer and the same day a town clown stopped the truck demanded he follow the TC to their local inspection and put the truck out of service for brakes. State Troopers ended up involved, the Commercial Vehicle Unit also had to come and inspect the truck and reteach the town clown how to correctly measure brake adjustment. No brakes out of adjustment.

It is the same with load securing. Our company brings in the NY State Commercial Vehicle Unit along with road Troopers every couple of years for our safety/driver training. They cover securing Loads, Hazmat, Hours of service, inspections, and now the road watch program.

As these boys state 95% of your inspection is your attitude.






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 02-02-2007, 16:38 Post: 139498
Murf

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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

EW, that's why I ended my post with;

"I have had arguements on the side of the highway with enforcement officers about this all across North America. I have a photocopy of the FMCSA regs in each of our trucks, several times they saved our bacon."

If you do a google search for "Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration" and then on their site search for "Cargo Security" or else just go straigh to the regs., you are looking for Sub Section 393 and in that area.

Cut & paste it, print it, keep it in the truck, and when you get soemone hassling you pull it out, and VERY politely point out the word FEDERAL, and ask them if they have the authority to over-ride Federal law?

In most cases they read a few lines and tell you to go on down the road, but don't let them catch you again... snicker.

Best of luck.






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 02-02-2007, 17:01 Post: 139500
earthwrks

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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

It WAS the DOT that I called---who is higher than them?. But they all had their own take on the law---regardless of what it says--they all had their own ideas of what to enforce. THIS is the South. They only adhere to what they want. I'm tellin' ya I see every day!

I have never had a road-side inspection if that's what you are referring to. BUT I did get pulled over in Alambama a year ago. Keep inmind I was driving my '03 Dodge Ram pulling a 12,000 GVW trailer (which is how he got me for over 10,001 lb.) for no medical card, no vehicle inspection, no trailer inspection, no DOT numbers displayed, a tail light out on the trailer and running lite out on the trailer, and no log book. I still got the tickets but he let me go instead of staying on the shoulder for 8 hours after he learned that I was coming down from Mich. to provide hurricane relief (The FEDs had declared a Hurricane Exemption so some laws were not being enforced.) I still had to come into compliance in 15 days. BUT the kicker is that once you pull a DOT number that automatically enters you into a database that demands an "audit" where they want to know how you wipe your butt and when---including my income--which they told me is how fines are based. I'm a one-man-show, with only ONE pickup truck that's roadable now. My audit lasted 2 hours and fifteen minutes, and produced 17 pages of print. The spirit of the law is written for bigger trucks yet they paint EVERYONE with stickers on their vehicle as being under the ummbrella of these big-truck-laws.






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 02-03-2007, 03:03 Post: 139506
tetloader



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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

Quoting MURF: That means the "safe working load" of the binders, times the number of binders, must exceed the weight of the object so secured. Period.

I guess i would agree, ...and that god I'm not transporting commercially. But, it seems to me that common sense and adding a safety factor would dictate using more than two chains, even if the tiedown ratings well exceed the cargo weight. Shifting of a load is one thing, losing it is another. If you only got two chains and you loose one for some reason (binder pops, load shifts, chain failure, evasive manuever, whatever), the one remaining is going to do little good, especially since it will be loose quick enough.

Thanks for the replies.






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 02-03-2007, 07:47 Post: 139507
harvey



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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

tetloader you make excellent points and I agree with the what if. I think you will be plenty safe and comfortable with the extra chains and binders. There is nothing wrong with that.

Kinda like wearing two condoms. You can never be too safe with some of the equipment out there.Smile

However when I buy a chain and binder that come with certifications to their safe working loads and I pay a preminum dollar for the chains and binders I expect them to to the job. Typicall I stop after 20-30 miles recheck then check at each regular stop.

The bottom line with this thread I think is: Is the source of info knowledgable about the topic. Just because they have a badge does not make them a reliable source of info.

Where I work we learn new stuff every day, we check it to verify it. The State DOT's and the Feds propose new standards every day it seems. Proposed and law are two different things.






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 02-03-2007, 08:20 Post: 139508
harvey



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 What CHP told me on transporting CUT

EW I am not throwing a rock at you here. But your kind of rig and these U-haul's is exactly where the DOTs are headed. They are also headed for Mom & Pop with their 1/2 ton pick up and great big 5th wheel campers or horse trailers.

I just went out to NW corner of MN, crew cab dually diesel ford with a 5th wheel 26 ft trailer, lenght of deck. Light weight 14000 lbs.

(I do not have the exact figures here, so I may miss the correct number, I spent over a hour on the scale checking empty axles and loaded axles before I left).

The steer axle rated at 5700, drive axle at 8600 gross of truck 13000. The trailer rated at 20000, 2 axles 8 tires.

That means IF I CAN GET THE WEIGHTS RIGHT I COULD CARRY 18,000 lbs. I only needed to load 9000 lbs between the two parts I picked up.

These weights are as much a small local tractor trailer.

I did not run a log book and was prepared for the mandatory 8 hour layover if necessary. I did not intend to run a legal day driving. Even if empty I was well over the weights required to have to stop at weight stations and LUCKLY they were all closed. I would have spent lots of time if I had been stopped and had to show documents. I made sure I had, I hope, enough bail money.






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