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Scott
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1999-12-07          10732

O.K Ya'll , I need help! I am going to buy a tractor this week! It is for mowing and partial clearing my new 7.5 acres. Rolling terrain, some gulleys and lots of Kudsu still on the edges and crawling up trees. I have narrowed the search to a JD 790 or Kubota L2500. The prices are within $ 200 of each.Each will have a loader and a box scraper. What is best value?thanks in advance for your helpScott

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Craig
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1999-12-08          10745

The tractors are probably pretty similar! Look at the dealer and the service you will get from them. I would gladly pay an extra $500.00 if I knew it would give me better service. The dealer I chose sent someone(within 1/2 hour of my call) out to look at my tractor when it quit running at 4:00 on a Saturday afternoon. It was just a wire that came loose, but I earned a lot of respect for my dealer from that. The tractor is green if that makes any difference. ....

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PaulB
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1999-12-08          10748

Scott - not to complicate your life, but are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY sure you do not want a hydrostatic transmission? You mention a loader, and I really find the hydro makes like easier. If you have tried hydro, and still want the 790 or 2500, I bet they are virtually identical in quality and capabilities based on brief test drives I took on both before i went hydro. "Once you go hydro you wilkl never go back"
PaulB ....

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GreyDave
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1999-12-08          10754

Last spring I went through the same process. The 790 has a live pto but the Kubota weighs more. I bought the 790. But I agree about the hydro for loader work. As a sidelight, I thought wild grape vines were a pain up in Ohio, but this Kudzu (spelling?) you people have down here (Georgia) is EVERYWHERE! Hope someone finds a way to control it. ....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-08          10756

A lot of folks do prefer the hydro. ..Something about it makes them into "true believers". There are so many people who feel this way that they must be on to something. But remember that there is nothing wrong with a manual tranny. I still prefer them for delicate "inching forward with the loader" types of motion. You will do a lot of gear shifting when doing repetitive loader work, but the manual transmission can take it. I'm old-fashioned enough to still like shifting gears. Some of the Yanmars had some of the best of both worlds with their power shift transmission in which you manually select a range and then shift a dashboard lever between 3 forward and 1 reverse without having to clutch...
I forget if both of these tractors have a continuous, independent PTO? Anyone know? If you are buying a new tractor you do not want to get a transmission-driven (also called a ground-driven)PTO. I would consider this to be as important as the transmission type if you are going to be mowing.
....

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markchalkley
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1999-12-08          10759

Roger L., I'm one of the hydrostatic 'true believers', as you phrased it. And yet I quite understand your comments because the only thing I miss about the manual transmission is shifting gears. I just enjoy it, and when I switched to hydrostatic I definitely had the feeling that something was missing. It just didn't feel like I should be accomplishing the things I was without all that shifting, and still doesn't sometimes. Maybe they could come out with a "hyrdo-glideshift" or a "hydro-power reverser". Then I could use the hydro when I wanted to really work, and the manual when I wanted it to look & feel like I was. ....

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steveofNJ
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1999-12-08          10762

I bet I can shead some light on this for you. I have a 790, and love it. I came from a hydro, and the thing about once you have it, you will only want hydrostatic, I don't believe that and have many people to back me up in the business. Many old work horses out there with manual and very happy users who prefer manual over hydro. I think if nothing else, you get more PTO HP with manual. I must say though, I agree about the loader work, it took a little time to get the manual shifting to a point were I wasn't thinging anymore and just doing, so it isn't even an issue, I bet I am just as efficient as a man on a hydrostatic, plus I think the low gear range with 1st gear has more pushing/pulling power than the hydro in low gear (however that is just in my view, don't know if it is a fact).

Secondly, I did what you are doing, the L2500 does not have the same pto set-up as the 790. You have a two-stage clutch with the 790 and also you may engage either both rear and mid at the same time, or just one or the other. Look at the spec sheet and you will also see that the PTO hp and the Engine HP is better with the 790. I also believe that the dual hdryo pump (one fore steering and one for implements) is an other feature. For the money, I went with the 790, and I am a happy camper. A paid 14,900 with turf tires, mid and rear pto/ 70 loader with ballast box 4WD(A MUST!). I have seen them a little cheaper, but I liked the dealer who I was working with.

I hope this is some help, and please, hydrostatic fans, don't jump on me, I know you love you pushy pedals, I just like the old fashion feel of a clutch and the ability to select my gears per the task I am doing. I believe it is easier on the machine to have a better feeling of what the actual stress is on the engine and tranni, more feedback I feel (sound of engine vs. what gear you are in) okay okay, I go on and on, sorry. GOOD LUCK, and I hope you go Green. ....

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Ted
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1999-12-08          10764

As a landscaper I think the statement previously made should read Hydro is "more user friendly" instead of "better". From a work point of view the gear drive is far superior, even for loader work, the Hydro maybe easier to learn though. In my fleet I have one HST and the rest GST's, nobody wants the HST, especially on rough terrain, as the operators foot bounces, the speed varies, causing an even bumpier ride. There are very few situations were this would be helped by cruise control because of the terrain. Granted, in our work (lots of golf course construction) Hydro is also a problem because of the travel distances involved, the hydraulic fluid heats up to the point where the machine hardly climbs a hill, not a problem with gear drive. Also, as speed increases you lose a lot of hp with a Hydro, not so with a gear driven machine. To each their own..... ....

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steveofnj
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1999-12-08          10768

Cool, I was expecting to get bashed for my view on GST. I was just out clearing a 100 x 100 area a few minutes ago, and was thinking about the opposition there would be when I came in and check the message board. Instead I see ,as I said, a professional agreed with my view, just expressed it better than I could have.

I enjoyed the loader work with the gear shift, it was not at all any extra effort. I was just beating that machine to death with pushing some large loads, and as I said in my previous post, I could feel when the machine was pushing too hard, and knew when to back off. No worry of over-heating a hst or busting a seal. On other thing came to mind to, I rented a 955 several times with the HST and I still think I have a comparable about of power with my 790 which is a smaller and lighter machine. I think this is due to the GST.

So, on goes the conversation. Next.... ....

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Scott
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1999-12-08          10771

Some things that I am confused about with my decision:
Kobota has 1,435 lb 3PH lift capacity JD790 has 815 lb. Is this a concern?
Kubota tires are bigger 7-16 fr 11.2-24 rear JD 6-12 fr 12.4-16 rear. Should this be a factor? Kubota has wet disk brakes JD has dry. Kubota has transmission driven overrunning clutch on PTO JD has Live-Continuous. I was about to sign on the dotted line for the JD when I received a fax about these items.
....

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markchalkley
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1999-12-08          10773

I guess the comments here underscore the need to try everything carefully before you buy, and to each his own. Personally, I traded in an L3600GST on an L4310HST, only because I like the HST so much better. I use mine for landscaping and maintaining 130 acres/1.5 miles of driveway. I've never had a single job that I wished I had the GST back again for (except, as I said before, you sure look like you're working harder when folks are watching...), not even when plowing. Other factors (my own experience - your mileage may vary): Much safer, especially when working around other people or on steep slopes; much lower fuel consumption (strange, I know, but true for me); lower power to wheels (10% or so) is offset by ability to exactly match ground speed/engine torque with job at hand; I could go on and on.

FWIW, I have never had a problem with hydraulic fluid overheating, not even plowing or scarifying hard clay-type soil. But, I do use synthetic, and have measured under controlled conditions more than 20 degree cooler temps. ....

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Jack
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1999-12-08          10778

For what it's worth, I just traded an L2500 for a JD4400 -- What a difference! Granted, the JD is more HP, but a hydro that I really like. However, you be the judge -- drive them both! ....

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Mike
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1999-12-08          10779

Hey,If your set on green,I've seen where Deere is coming out with a new model,the 990. 40 H.P. and bigger capacities all around. A gear machine,much on the same lines as the 790. Might be worth a little wait to have a look at it. ....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-08          10782

It beats me why the Kubota has a much higher 3pt rating. JDs figure is closer to standard for this size tractor....and I believe it is adequate for anything you might want to do. What about loader capacity? You are more likely to use this to its capacity. About the tire sizes, all things being equal the larger tires are better for work on broken ground. Both tractors are good. The transmissions are good. How about comparing some things that really matter? Like how easy can you get on and off? Drive around with a few bags of feed in the bucket over broken ground. Try it with the bucket empty. How is the ride? Twist around in the seat until you are looking at the implement. How does it feel now? You will spend a lot of time bouncing over ruts and/or looking behind you. Try to work the controls in this position. Can you see the cutting edge of the bucket while sitting down and working the controls. Granted, you will have to get into a yoga position to do this, but can you do it? Does your knee bang on anything when twisted around backwards? How about the motor/transmission noise? Which one would you like to listen to for a few hours...And get on and off LOTS of times because this is what will be happening when you use it. A low center of gravity is wonderful to have. Try both on a side slope. CAREFULLY! Make the loader move a foot very slowly. Is it smooth? Run it at an idle and try the loader while turning the steering wheel. Will the loader still respond at a reasonable speed? About the PTO...Can you bring an implement up to speed with the tractor in gear before you start to move (live PTO). Very important for mowing.
And let us know....... ....

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Jack D
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1999-12-09          10801

Further to Roger's comments -- I traded the Kubota for the JD -- As a friend of mine said, when you get on the Kubota you know you're going to work. The JD is something you can sit on all day without fatigue, the attachments are CONSIDERABLY easier to change, and it was designed by guys that have been doing it for a few years, so they know what makes life easier. ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-09          10804

Ted, Never heard of a HST overheating during regular use. Our AC HST gets a bit mushy when the cooling Fins become blocked with grass leaves, ect...Of which is my fault..But 10-15 minutes after cleaning the fins, everything was A OK. Your the first guy I've heard mention this problem. ....

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Scott
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1999-12-09          10834

Thanks to all who helped me make the big decision today. It will be delivered tomorrow! ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-09          10835

I, too, had never heard of a hydrostatic tranny overheating (of course I don't claim to be that experienced either), but I also am a fan of the hydro. Three years ago, when we built my brother's house, he did not want to remove any more trees than absolutely necessary, so when I went to backfill around the foundation with my little B7100, a good friend and neighbor wanted to help, with his big old 85 hp tractor. Now that bigger tractor is fine for plowing, cutting and baling hay, etc., but for maneuvering in the trees and jockeying back and and forth, he didn't last 20 minutes and had to quit because his clutch was literally smoking. And the little B7100 just kept right on going. ....

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steveofnj
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1999-12-10          10856

Sounds like the word "old" in big old was the key! LOL.
I agree about the size of the machine being the key in your statement. Smaller is betting when working on small lots. As a matter a fact I am banking on this fact and hoping to start up in the business as this being a selling point with my little 790. However, I don't think me going from forward to reverse all day will smoke my clutch unless I am riding it and just abusing the machine, or worse feathering it on hills (THAT WILL SMOKE ANY CLUTCH). Well again, each to their own. I can afford a 790, and for the little inconvenince of GST, I will take the bigger engine. I would have paid more for the Kubota or the 4200 JD, and I am not into creature features on a work machine.
....

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Ted
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1999-12-10          10857

MLS, re-read my message, I did NOT say overheat, I said, "heats up". My HST does not overheat, ever, but at temp.'s that are well within the 'normal' range the power getting to the ground is greatly reduced. In fact, the local Works Dept. where I live got rid of all the Hydro.'s they had for plowing the sidewalks and went to GST's because of that very problem, the only way to keep them cool enough to function was to run the heater full-out and open the cab windows to let the heat back out. It is strictly a matter of physics that a Hydro. becomes so inefficient, especially when heat & travel speed increase. Try this sometime, put some weight in the loader bucket, put a reasonable amount on the 3pth and warm the machine up, then try driving at a good speed, UP A HILL, I think you will be surprised at what happens. I know I was, in fact I had the Kubota factory Rep. look at & drive it, he said it was 'normal' but admitted privately that he would not tolerate it if it was his machine..... so why should I ?
Bottom line, I have 5 other Kubota's, all GST's....... I do not think they are an inferior machine, just not suited to MY purposes. Probably as I have said before though, very "user friendly", and probably therefore, much safer for an occasional user. ....

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mdl
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1999-12-10          10862

Ted, You lost me on the physics behind your theory. Please expand. I think I understand your problem, just not clear on the cause. Thanks ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-10          10863

Your right Ted, I stand corrected. I'll try again, although my delivery still may not match my thoughts.. First off, I'm not sure why we continue to compare gears & hydro's from the standpoint of BETTER or WORSE. When its more of a usage/task issue.. By no means am I putting my experience against your, but I do have a few hundred hours on BOTH styles to raise my brow in wonder of what has been said, and to the level it has been explained. Considering our HILLY yard is no less than 5 hours of solid mowing.. Plus another 4 1/2 hours of hard loader work to close a trench 3 weeks ago, almost immediately after mowing (Ate Lunch). I don't know what else to say..My doubt stems from never experiencing this problem..I admit it.. Maybe its that Canadian air or something.. :) ....

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Ted
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1999-12-10          10876

MDL, the 'physics' involved is merely that there is an inverse relationship between speed & efficiency, that is, the faster the machine travels the less efficient it is. MLS, again I think you have mistaken what I said. I stated "I do not think they are an inferior machine, just not suited to MY purposes." In fact I went on to say they are IMHO a good machine for the occasional user. As for the 'heat' issue, you're right the cold arctic air up here should help the situation...LOL! But then again, maybe we just have more snow that has to be plowed before we can get the dog team out of the driveway...BTW, Toronto is on a paralel with northern California...... ....

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jim
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1999-12-14          11032

Let me correct some of the statements made by Ted. A hydrostatic transmission is more efficient at higher gear ratios not less as Ted stated. To quote Honda on one of their hydrostatic transmissions " operating efficiencies ranging from 87 percent at full reduction mode to 98 percent when input and output speeds are the same." Ted seems to be confusing the lower amount of torque available at higher speeds and efficiency.
Turning on a heater will reduce the engine coolant temperature not the hydrostatic fluid temperature and would have little or no effect on hydrostatic performance. ....

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Ted
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1999-12-15          11055

Jim, how you can say the cab heater has little or no effect is beyond me (and my HST that has 2200hrs. on it). The cooling rads of the engine and Hydro. are in the same place, therefore any heat taken out of the engine circuit is less heat blowing across the Hydro. cooler from the other radiator. As for the efficiency, I guess I should have bought a Honda instead of a Kubota because I lose 6-8 mph at the top end when the machine is at operating temp. over when it is nearly cold. In my business (golf course construction, etc.) I regularly have to haul a lot of material distances of over a mile, one way, from storage areas to job site. This kind of speed loss translates into a lot of money over the course of a single project, let alone the life of the machine. ....

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markchalkley
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1999-12-15          11074

Ted, if you switch to synthetic hydraulic oil, your temps will run much cooler. In controlled tests pushing my L4310HST up a pretty steep hill while it weighed about 11,000 pounds, I found 19 degree cooler temps on a 7 degree warmer day (measuring with a laser-spot infrared thermometer at the input side of the oil cooler).

That should cure your problem. I've certainly never had the problem you experience since switching. ....

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jim
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1999-12-15          11080

Ted, at least on the B-series Kubota’s (B1700-B2400) the radiator airflow is from front to back. The HST cooling tubes are mounted in front of the engine-cooling radiator. Air passing over the HST tubes would see no effect from the radiator because it has not reached the radiator yet. The reason I said ”a little” was because there could be a very small amount of change in the engine block temperature where it meets the HST and some conduction could occur.
Even if your tractor had the HST cooling mounted down stream of the radiator the effect on HST operating temperature would not be large because it is so far removed. Without knowing the heat loads and water and air flow rates, I can not calculate the exact numbers but, to guess at the numbers: turning the heater on and off would vary the radiator water temperature by maybe 10-20 F. This in turn would vary the air temperature passing over the radiator by less than half that number say 5-10F. That would vary the hydro oil temperature in the cooling tubes by half that again say 3-5 F. 3 to 5 F would not make a difference in hydro operation.
Does your tractor have the HST cooling mounted downstream of the radiator airflow? Keep in mind that some Kubota’s have forward airflow and some have rearward airflow. Kubota also sells replacement fans with the pitch in the other direction to change the direction of airflow. If your HST cooling is down stream and you still think this is the cause of your problem, buy the reverse pitch fan and let us know how you make out.
I would suspect the reason might be the hydraulic fluid. Do you only use the Kubota fluid? If you are using other than fresh Kubota fluid, the viscosity of the fluid at normal operating temperature may be to blame.
I only quoted the Honda efficiency numbers because they were readily available. All hydrostatic transmissions operate basically the same, as there is less “gear” reduction the efficiency is better not worse as you were claiming. The amount of torque is reduced (just like gear drive), but not the efficiency. The efficiency is better at higher speeds. Your symptoms are from something other than efficiency.
If you were losing 6-8 MPH on a B-series that would mean you could only go 0-2 MPH and on an L-series you would be losing half the speed capability. I notice no loss in speed when warmed up to full temperature on my Kubota, but I am using super UDT which as far as I know is a synthetic oil. I don’t want to start an oil war here; it is just another thing you could try. Are you sure the HST cooling tubes are clean of debris that could limit airflow and heat transfer? If none of the other things work and you are sure it is HST oil temperature, then why not add an after market oil cooler in the line going to the cooling tubes. That would significantly reduce the HST oil temperature.
....

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SteveofNJ
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1999-12-15          11081

Umm, guys, I think this subject was on Kubota or John Deere, and some poor guy who was buying a JD790. Maybe we could start a new HST vs GST subject, please. ....

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markchalkley
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1999-12-15          11087

Kubota Super UDT is a semi-synthetic. Or at least it used to be a couple years ago when Texaco made it and would answer questions on the subject. It used to be that Texaco's phone number was on the 5-gallon pails and if you called them they would answer questions about it. The last time I called them they wouldn't even say whether they still make it or not.

Kubota published a technical paper in "Trends and Developments in Fluid Power for Off-Highway Applications" which is now reprinted as SAE publication 972788 in which they describe the advanced characteristics of Super UDT. The interesting thing is that all the benefits they describe - lower cold temp viscosity, higher high temp viscosity, lack of emulsification when mixed with water, lower friction, etc. are all the same selling points of synthetics, but nowhere in the paper do they say how Super UDT's formulation was varied to accomplish this. My opinion as to the reason is that they're not in the business of oil refining, therefore they didn't really come up with any new formulation, only a higher spec. Also interesting is that several manufacturer's semi-synthetics meet or marginally exceed Kubota's test specs for Super UDT (as published in the aforementioned paper, the only place I know of where such specs can be gotten), while all the full synthetic formulations I've seen exceed those specifications, often by a wide margin. So why go with semi-synthethic? It's less expensive.

An interesting side note is that in Japan Super UDT is biodegradeable but elsewhere it is not. ....

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Scott
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1999-12-15          11095

Thanks SteveofNJ, I did buy the JD 790 and I Think I got the "right" one. Took it to the land last Saturday and cleared the Kudzu from out of 2 large Red Oak trees. I will go this coming weekend and try to free several more........Scott from Tennessee.
....

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Ted
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1999-12-19          11286

The machine is an L series, 37hp, 4wd, with the HST. I have been running Amsoil front to back since 200hrs. (as I do with all equipment). The fan is a back to front flow, with the HST cooler in front, and we have already had a cowl fabricated to force more air through the rad, and inquired about a higher pitch blade but were told that they are too agressive for use above 1500rpm, we run at (nearly) full throtle most of the time. The symptoms I have talked about have existed since it was new, even had Kubota's tech.'s look it over, the measured, tested, etc., and said everything was "within factory spec.", in fact better than most they saw. Bottom line, it & any one of the GST's, hauling EXACTLY the same load in a dump trailer behind, will pull away from it like it was running a gear lower. ....

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ken dyck
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2000-01-13          11924

the only point that i would like to add is that with my 970 jd i traded up in tire size after a year. if you buy a tractor it can be ordered with different sized tires, don't go for the cheap deal, horsepower without traction aint worth !@#$. i now have the same tires on my 970 that came on the 1070 and it makes a world of a difference, 13.6 - 28 R1 and 8 - 16 R1. i have never owned a Kub but with the green dealer only 15 miles away and having gone to school with most of the people that work there and resale value etc the choice was biased towards the deere. also not having live pto is not a good thing, i don't know about you but the old tractors are best viewed in parades. i did have an ihc B250 with a rotary mower that scared me more than once with the mower flywheeling me to with inches of the promised land, but thats another story. make a list of musts, needs and wants, see who the winner is. ....

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