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Roger L.
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2001-05-05          27791

Well, tractors have had ROPS on them for a quite a few years now. I'm wondering how many folks have put one to the test.

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TomG
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2001-05-06          27793

I haven't, but many of my uncles could have used them. Most retired from farming following tractor flips. Fortunately there were no serious injuries. However, the ROPS has contributed to my safe operation. I use a loop of chain around the lower end of the ROPS for a safety chain when raising my 3ph forks to a vertical. Same thing would work for posthole augers. ....

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Mark E. Lamprey
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2001-05-06          27798

I haven't owned my tractor long enough to have much experience with a ROPS and I really don't want the day to come where I can see just how well it will work. Thinking back many years to the tractors I grew up on and around, 8N's, Farmalls C's, John Deere B's and we had one newer International with a Sims open cab. I don't think myself or my Father ever gave much thought to a roll over type accident. Of course I was only a young boy who just thought it was great to be able to operate the tractors. I will say that having a ROPS and knowing it is there gives me the same feeling of comfort as wearing my helmet while mountain biking. Neither a helmet or a ROPS is an excuse to disregard common sense and safety, but it is a comfort knowing that if the Defication hits the Rotary Oscillater, I will stand a better chance of survival. Mark ....

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eric
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2001-05-06          27815

WELL PUT MARK .LIKE THE TERMINOLOGY . ERIC ....

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steve arnold
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2001-05-07          27846

yes! but in a 1979 jeep cj-7:), but seriously ROPS (in my opinion) are only useful if you are wearing the seat belt, on the other hand, I wouldnt wear a seat belt if the tractor did not have ROPS. ....

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Elkoboy
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2001-05-07          27848

The ROPS (roll over protection SYSTEM) includes both the rollbar AND the seatbelt. Using one without the other negates the safety of the system. And if you think you can jump clear of a tractor as it rolls while not wearing your seatbelt, you're playing Russian roulette. You MIGHT be able to jump clear, but then again, you might not. Rolling a tractor with a rollbar and not wearing a seatbelt is just asking for the rollbar to crunch you too. Wear your seatbelt! ....

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Ken Butner
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2001-05-08          27880

This discussion thread really brings back some memories to me. I am a former Paramedic and a certain EMS call involving a tractor rollover vividly sticks out in my mind. The gentleman was using a Ford 8N (older tractor - no ROPS), doing something we have all probably done before. Something that you would never think you could get hurt doing. Freaky as things can be, the tractor flipped upside down on top of him. His son and grandchildren found him hours after life had passed away. Before we could extricate the man's body from under the tractor, there was a crowd of emotionally distraught family members at the scene. Over the years I served in emergency services, of all the things I have seen, all the things I have had to do, this one call will always stay in my memories.

I guess this was a time of wake up for the tractor daredevil that I had always been. On the farm, I was placed in a tractor seat at the age of five or six. I had to put my back against the front of the seat to push the clutch in. Growing up, I was trained by some of the best daredevils (relatives) in the community. As a teen and young adult, I took more than my fair share of chances and survived some tricky close call situations. Never received more than a scrape and a few bruises. The good Lord kept his hand on my shoulder and I am thankful for that.

Since that EMS call, I have turned over a new leaf. Its so easy to make a mistake, even when trying to be careful. Folks, please be careful. If you have to rush to get something done, maybe you should just wait until another day when you have more time. Its better to take twice as long to do something that to have to send your family and friends to a funeral. There have been many killed due to tractor accidents. Don't let those who have died, die in vain, lets all think safety in our actions and utilize your ROPS (that includes wearing your seat belt). If you have an older tractor without ROPS, go to your local dealer and see if they have a ROPS kit for the older makes or they may have information/sources to help you find a kit. Take care, have FUN tractoring, BE SAFE, and enjoy LIFE! -Ken

....

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William Dawson
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2001-05-08          27902

Amen to the seatbelt/rops system. I live in W Va and wouldn't be without it. I have survived to age 50 only because i was luckier than some of the farmers i hav seen as a paramedic. Use the system!! ....

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TomG
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2001-05-09          27962

My used Ford 1710 came with ROPS and canopy, but no seat belts. I ordered a set of belts from NH, but there was no obvious place to anchor them--I really didn't want to remove several case bolts, which seemed the only likely places. I finally installed the belts using small clevis pins and c-rings around the heavy fender support rods. That's either a good solution and suggestion for older tractors, or maybe somebody will tell me if it's a bad idea. I have had visions of a flip tearing off a fender and me ending up with a seatbelt corset. ....

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BillBass
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2001-05-15          28225

I just installed a ROPS on my JD 950. Research on the net finds that rollovers are the leading cause of tractor related deaths. The numbers vary but in general there are about 150 deaths per year from tractor rollovers in the US. One site stated that the chance of survival without ROPS was less than 25%. With ROPS, it was greater than 85% (assuming you use your seat belt!).
Most of the major tractor manufacturers are in a program to provide ROPS at cost.
I sure feel a lot better mowing on slopes with mine. ....

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turfman
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2001-05-16          28234

Yes, I have used mine and it does work. I was being extremely careful on a slope that was not by any means hazardous. In the course of traversing a slight slope in a brome field, my downhill wheel went in a hole the sametime the uphill wheel hit a hump. Both of these were caused years ago by a bulldozer turning that I did not know about. Anyway, yes a ROPS works and it does happen fast and no you can't get off. Hope all you never....never have to experience it....keep safe all. ....

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MarkS
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2001-05-16          28257

Does anyone know of a place to find the max recomend slope for different tractor models? I own a TC40D that I have to use alot on hillsides, and there are a few areas that make me nervous when mowing them. I always slow way down and of course use my ROPS and seatbelt. There is no way to mow this slope by driving up and down it, or else I would. Also, do liquid filled tires help out alot on hillsides? Thanks ....

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BillBass
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2001-05-16          28258

Mark
There are too many variables to publish fixed numbers. It all depends on the Center of Gravity for each tractor. And that CG will change depending on what equipment you have installed, how wide your tires are set, if your loader is up or down, etc., etc. Anything to lower the CG will help. Loading the tires would lower the CG since most of the liquid would be below the axle. If you can widen your rear tires, that would help a lot. If you have a loader, keep it as low as possible.
Bill ....

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Murf
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2001-05-16          28261

Mark, the best I can offer is the benifit of many years of experience trying to do the same thing. The first and foremost important step is to properly and securely put on your seat belt. Then the easiest, safest way we have found to do it is like this, line up your tractor (preferably equipped with a Bush-hog type rotary mower) 90 degrees to the slope, at the bottom of the hill, then slowly reverse up the hill (not yet cutting though), once you are at the top, and you have found any surprises hiding in the gras on the way up, you engage the cutter and proceed SLOWLY, STRAIGHT down the hill. When you get to the bottom, move over the width of your mower and repeat the whole process again. It sounds much harder and slower than it really is, but it actually goes quite quickly. Besides the safest way to operate on a hill is going straight down, that way you have the best control and balance. Best of luck. ....

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Bird Senter
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2001-05-16          28267

Murf, that's just the way I do it, too. ....

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William Dawson
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2001-05-17          28291

If you are worried, you shouldn't be on that hillside. It isn't worth it. Either find another way to mow it or leave it alone. Period. ....

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Clyde Booth
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2001-05-17          28296

Sounds like this hillside needs ROUNDUP and a good groundcover ....

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Greg franklin
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2001-05-17          28298

Indirectly. I bought a 1070 and loader for my father as a small payback for a college education. As an after-thought, I decided a canopy would be good for keeping the sun off. As time went by I noticed cracks appearing in the canopy from finding building braces and guy wires. I thought oh well..then I noticed the BIG cracks. It seems he was pushing over a leaning dead tree with the bucket when another dead tree behind it fell on the tractor's canopy. I shuddered when I analyzed the direction of fall. ....

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Jack PA
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2001-05-17          28305

Hey Guys, Please be aware that SAE ROPS standards may not have kept up with the compact tractor evolution. If your tractor is loaded with wheelweights, weight box and liquid in the tires and loader installed, your Rops may fail. I saw one set up like that and it fell over backward on a steep hill when the bucket was raised. The ROPS folded till the loader which was still raised stopped it. The operator who was very inexperienced lived. Observe how the ROPS tube is bent and you will notice how the tube walls are concaved from the forming process. This weakens the ROPS in a rear roll situation.

I am not saying not to use the ROPS. It is important that you do. What I am saying is watch overloading your machine. ....

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TomG
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2001-05-18          28325

Jack: that is a good note. I don't run a lot of ballast, but some people do go for traction by piling on the ballast. I hadn’t thought of the ROPS issue. Of course, the incident probably wouldn't have happened if the guy had a box scraper on the 3ph. I've heard them jokingly referred to as 'wheelie bars.' Jokes aside, I think front or back flips are uncommon, because operation at anywhere near the conditions where are likely should be very uncomfortable for most people--experienced or inexperienced. Still, I guess it may take some experience to recognize that there are some jobs a tractor just can't do, and some places where they just can't go. There are max slope rules of thumb, but another good rule of thumb is: 'If it feels unsafe, then it probably is.' The best solution is never being in a situation where a ROPS might be needed. ....

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Murf
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2001-05-18          28334

Actually Tom I think if you were to look at the statistics you would find that the single most common tractor upset IS a back-flip. The reason is fairly simple, most people adhere to the old 'if it feels uncomfortable, don't do it' and stay of hillsides. Most roll-overs with Ag. machines occur on flat level land, and I'm sure compacts are the same. I have seen the aftermath of two compacts that rolled over bush-hogging flat level land. The tendancy is to set the cruise control, point it at the other end of the field and wait till you get there. However, if the bush-hog happens to snag something of substance, and the tractors rear wheels do not stop turning, the front of the tractor will come up, as this happens two things occur. First the operator usually panics and freezes up, second, as the front of the tractor rises the weight shifts and the load, and therefore traction on the rear wheels increases, making it almost impossible to lose traction. Result, an upside down tractor. Believe me this will happen a LOT easier than you think. Best of luck. ....

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Geno
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2001-05-18          28350

Been there done that. Just like Murf says.... Rear roll overs happen more often than you can imagine. When I was kid with a JD 4020 and 4/18 plow I caught a buried cable. Pulled the big diesel right over in just the same manner Murf described. I was lucky, she had a cab and I jumped on the clutch to stop her from going all the way... ....

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TomG
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2001-05-19          28353

Murf, Geno: You're right of course. After posting, I realize that I was thinking entirely in terms of tractors on hills without towed loads or implement use. In such circumstances, I believe there's a much greater chance that traction will break, the differential counter-rotate, and the tractor flip on its side. True enough, almost everybody around here have stories about rear flips. Most are on level ground and involve an implement hitting something or towing something from the 3ph or point other than the draw bar. On another board there even was a story about tractors getting their rear wheels frozen in puddles and then nearly flipping the next time somebody tried to move them. For the reasons mentioned, I heard somebody mention that they virtually never use hand throttles or cruise control. It's safe to say that rear flips aren't rare at all when tractors are working. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-05-19          28354

I don't doubt that these rear roll-overs happen, but have a hard time visualizing it. I think I remember that the 3pt hitch was developed specifically to make this sort of accident impossible. And it seems to me that in order for it to happen, the upper link of the 3pt hitch would have to fail. Looking at mine, it would be difficult - I won't quite say impossible - for the tractor to lift the front wheels far enough to get enough compressive force on the upper link of the 3pt to cause a problem. That 3pt hitch with a sturdy implement is a very effective anti-wheelie bar. Like all of us, I've hooked rocks and roots with mine with the result that the tractor stops suddenly, the front end lurches up a couple of inches, rotation is arrested by the 3pt and implement, and the rear tires begin to dig. Of course I always look at any potenial implement with a critical eye to see that it is well supported to withstand those kind of stresses - but doubt that I am unique in doing so. ....

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TomG
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2001-05-20          28374

I'm trying to visualize too. It hadn't occurred to me that a top-link might limit how high the lift arms can float upward. When I think about it, I guess I can see that the two off-centre arcs traced by the top and lift arms would intersect and limit upward movement. Sometime back, I realize that almost all 3ph's can always float upward. I guess a conclusion in this case would be that the lift arms would do nothing to prevent a rear flip unless an implement is mounted. When I mentioned common stories about rear flips accidents around here, I was being liberal in what was called a flip and accident. The stories usually start with something like: 'That tractor almost killed me, but I was doing something stupid.' The stupid thing usually was towing from some point other than the drawbar. The stories mean that the front wheels lifted high, and the operator had to take drastic action. Guess that still qualifies as an accident. This is logging country around here. Skidding logs is hazardous, because the get hung up or suddenly decide to go downhill. Tractors are often used for skidding, even when an actual skidder should be used. That's probably why these stories are so common. Something else that took me awhile to visualize is this business about towing only from the drawbar. Drawbars are below the rear axle. Any point above the rear axle can provide leverage to lift the front wheels. A one-inch clevis that fits neatly in my drawbar almost lives there so I'm never tempted to tow from anywhere else. Anyway, I’m happy this type of thread comes up from time to time. I’m still putting the pieces of tractor operation together. It takes some time to go from the abstract hazard and safety warnings in manuals to an ‘Whoops don’t do that!!!’ when actually working the tractor. These discussions help put the pieces together. ....

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Murf
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2001-05-22          28445

Actually gentlemen, the 3pth is not nearly as robust as you may think, especially the upper link. I have seen the 3pth on many implements folded up like a pretzel by reasonably light, but incorrect loads. The most common instance is when someone thinks that the spindle of the single tail wheel on a bush-hog looks like just the ticket to move a trailer a few feet. The 'tower' generally loses the battle and ends up mangled. The 3pt hitch on most implements is designed to take loads in a single direction, if you were to load the wrong way, they collapse. The 3pt on a bush-hog for example, is ONLY designed to lift the mower, if you were to load it in reverse by driving through a steep ditch and letting it take the weight, you would find it doesn't fare well at all. Best of luck. ....

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TomG
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2001-05-23          28471

I think some important things are being said here. For me, I'm trying to match my ideas about how things work with my experience of how they work. I do not doubt that rear flips happen or suppose that 3ph can support a tractor. Mostly, I'm trying to think through how flips happen. Visualizing is a tricky business, but here goes. A top link keeps an implement from rotating on its lift arm pins. When a ground-engaging implement hits something hard, the implement tries to rotate, and load is taken by the top link. The load is toward the tractor. Since the top link bracket is above axle level, the force tends to keep the front wheels on the ground. Continued forward motion tends to lift the lower links. However, the lift generally is less than the top-link load because most implements are designed to take an implement into the ground, they weigh quite a bit and because the angle of the lift arms with respect to the ground is less than the top-link angle. Of course, there are other vector-forces at work. Some forces, such as the rear wheels, tend to lift the front. Under some operating conditions, these forces can be sufficient to over-come the top-link load and front ballast. The front will lift. If the front does lift, the 3ph will float upwards and apply little resistance to a flip until the limit of cylinder travel limit is reached or the implement binds on something. And of course, there is no structure in the 3ph or implement that is capable of resisting large forces. Flips can happen. There is a however. The main force contributing to front end lift is the rear wheels, and that force is limited by traction. If the front-end ballast is sufficient, then traction should break before the front lifts. I suspect that many rear flip stories are due to inadequate front ballast. For example, a tractor going up hill creates a weight transfer to the rear. Front ballast becomes less effective. A high implement load encountered when going up a steep hill undoubtedly could cause a rear flip. However, maybe such cases shouldn't be called accidents, because the potential could have been foreseen. Anyway, I don't know if all this is right or not, but thinking things through is the way I have to deal with them. This type discussion helps me, and I hope helps others as well. ....

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Murf
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2001-05-23          28482

Tom, I think this is one of those thought processes that would have gone smoother if you had a beer and a friend nearby to say "Hang a minute, you forgot about....". The small point that you weren't quite right on was the point of front counter weights. Not being a farmer it is quite understandable, I know your grasp of physicics is not the problem. The front weight is only ever enough to just overcome the resistance of ground enggaging implements, or the dead weight if a carried load. Thus, you would have to add an unreasonable amount of counter weight to overcome the torsional load that produces a roll-over situation. The other little 'fly in the ointment' you forgot about was that old rascal, MOMENTUM... you remember "an object in motion...." Once the rear wheels, especially if ballasted, are spinning, and the tractor moving forward, there is a LOT more effort required to stop all that momentum, sometimes about a half a revolution of the tire too much. Best of luck. ....

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Roger L.
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2001-05-23          28485

Tom, I agree with most of your analysis. Nice work. There are other forces at work, but in large it is as you said. The great unknown is the overturning force of the rear tires. If they spin, all is well. If they hook up with traction it is a crap shoot. The typical "accident" happens when the tires spin down until they hook onto a root or a rock. I've had a farm tractor do that more than once. Yes, they do rise up. If this worries you, simply ballast more to the front. It is that simple. Your concept of physics and tractors is excellent. And I agree with you. My opinion is that most rear roll accidents are not accidental, but preventable. Just do your physics and take the time to work safely. ....

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TomG
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2001-05-24          28518

Thanks guys, and anybody else who suffered through my think it out stuff. I now have a good idea that rear flips happen (which I never doubted) as well as why they happen. The idea gives me a place to hang my experiences. And, if the idea is good enough, maybe I'll never have to find a place to hang an accident experience. I think I've mentioned that most of my uncles and their friends retired following serious tractor accidents. Accidents are not quite abstract for me. I certainly agree with Murf's point that ballast can be excessive, and that no amount of ballast is going to make a tractor 'bomb proof.' The point can be taken back to the original post that ROPS's may be under-designed for today's ballasting practices. I thought that was a good idea to consider. It was Roger's side-comment about 3ph's being designed to prevent rear flips that got me thinking, but I’ll restrain myself from thinking much more. Anyway, I was aware that pulling anything from a point above the axles tends to raise the front wheels, and the lift arm mounts are above the axles. It hadn't dawned on me that the top-link applies the opposite force, which will dominate in most cases due to the larger angle. ....

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Randy Eckard
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2001-05-24          28522

Roger,
In visualing the front end coming over on a tractor while plowing remeber that the majority of large plows(4 bottomor more) are what is called semi-mount. Meaning they are only attached to the lower links and the tail of the plow is lifted by a trailing wheel. There is no upper link, making it easy to lift the front of the tractor.
Randy ....

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Roger L.
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2001-05-25          28554

Just so nobody gets confused, what Randy says is correct.....but it applies to very large tractors. My buddy pulls such a plow with his tractor, but it won't go arse over teakettle with him because of the onboard computer. It continually monitors and adjusts the gearing, steering, slippage, and also controls the angle of attack of the plow and the "attitude" of the tractor. Compacts are just not built or used in that manner. The only time I've ever seen a compact used in a somewhat similar fashion is when the top link on a bush hog is replaced with a chain. Personally I would rather trim my beard with tin snips than operate a machine rigged with such a chain, but I also feel that if someone else wants to do so then it is their own neck - and they have a right to risk it if they want. ....

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Murf
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2001-05-25          28559

You raise an excellent point Roger, and I don't mean the tin snips. The point of running chain is to allow up-wards rotation on an implement while still allowing it to be raised. There is however a happy medium for people, like yourself, who are concerened about running a 'flexible' top-link. The solution is to put two pieces of flat bar about 4-6" long, with the proper sized hole in each end, one each side of the top-link, and then to where the top-link would normally mount. This type of mount is typically found on 3pth finnishing mowers. The addition of this spacer allows some motion in the upper link, but will form a rigid link should it become necessary. Hope this might help. Best of luck. ....

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