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Bob A.
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2000-02-22          13059

I'm considering the NH TC33D, the JD4300 and the KU L3010.I'm very, very concerned (almost paranoid) about flipping. I have some hills to be negotiated and am inexperienced. Does anyone have a feel for, or can tell me how to determine, which tractor would be LEAST likely to flip? Should I be looking at a spec? Is heavier better? Or should I look at the wheel base? What?Thanks,Bob A.

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Jack in IL
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2000-02-22          13063

Width is the more important factor. Resistance to sideways overturning is greatest with the rear and front wheels in the widest possible tread width positions. With a loader the rear wheels need ballast plus a significant weight on the 3 point (ballast box or VERY heavy implement) to achieve the proper weight distribution. For example, the operators manual for my JD loader calls for 360 pounds of weight on the rear wheels plus a minimum of 750 pounds in a ballast box. If you plan to use a belly mount mower, check in advance that you can set the front and rear wheels at max tread width with the mower installed. Some only accomodate the tires in the narrow positon. I would also recommend you get a slope meter if you are operating on hills. I have one mounted on the front edge of the canopy. ....

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Murf
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2000-02-22          13072

First off, don't apologize for being cautious, I'm sure a lot of people are alive today because they were to nervous to do something wrong or just plain dumb. Experience is the best teacher, unfortunately, it is also the most unforgiving... However, that being said, Jack is right that stability is a function of width, the lower the 'center of gravity' (COG) the more stable. If you are spec.'ing out a new machine (any brand) be sure it has 'adjustable' rims, this will allow you to spread the wheel track to as wide as possible, making for better stability. At the time of purchase this is usually, a no cost substitution, or close to it. Also ask your dealer about a safety course, they are becoming more common these days and are (IMHO) an excellent idea. Best of luck. ....

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dave
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2000-02-22          13097

I'm paranoid. How easy is it to tip one of these compacts over? I operate a JD 770 with GB260 loader in some hilly terrain. How can you minimize the risk? How can you tell you are getting to the limit before its too late? I have the non adjustable wheels with ag tires and carry a 5 ft blade or bush hog on the back. Give me some pointers please.
Dave ....

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Murf
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2000-02-23          13103

Dave, even most 'fixed position' wheels are still adjustable, look in the owners manual, it probably says the tires can be swapped left to right to increase the track distance. As for the operating, try to keep ALL weight as low as possible, even if the loader or implement drags a little on the bumps, manuever slowly, raise and lower implements slowly, and most importantly, if YOU feel uncomfortable, STOP take a minute, catch your breath and think if theres a better, safer way to do it. As far as stablity goes, other than the loader throwing you off balance, the average machine has to be in a situation that would scare the operator silly before they get to the 'over she goes' point. It is not complicated keeping them on their wheels however, "put your brain in gear before the tractor" is the #1 rule. When climbing or descending a slope, be sure the path is the smoothest possible, keep the heavy end (almost always the front, loader, engine, etc.) on the UPHILL side. Travel 90 deg. to the slope (straight up or down). NO SUDDEN changes, speed, direction, loader, implement, etc. Past that, experience will tell you when to keep going or not. But if it is of some comfort to you, in 15 years in business (landscaping & golf course construction) and with a small fleet of compacts I have ever only had 3 'flips', and twice there was nobody on board (pulling stuck machines out of gooo) the once someone was on-board, he was wearing a seatbelt and the rops stopped it. Before you ask, yes he was doing something he shouldn't have been, MOWING WITH THE THROTTLE SET ... I personally think 'cruise control' is the dumbest thing ever, an accident waiting to happen, it should not even exist on anything but AG. machines. Gentlemen (and ladies) PLEASE, if your machine is equipped with a hand throttle or cruise control, DO NOT USE IT for things like mowing grass or plowing snow. Best of luck ... and be careful! ....

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Reginald W. Lamson
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2000-02-23          13104

Murf,I'm a little confused.Are yoy saying that i should be using the accelerator pedal,not the hand throttle,while field mowing.I was under the impression that sudden changes of accelator is hard on the pto drive and mower.Please forgive me if i miss understood what you were saying.RegL ....

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Murf
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2000-02-23          13113

Reg, that is EXACTLY what I am saying. The reason for saying it is that should your mower deck catch on a rock, stump, or peice of fence, etc., the sudden stop would throw you off balance, if you did not get your foot onto he clutch in time it would be very easy for the tractor to pivot on its rear wheels and right over onto you. If you look in the owners manual of ANY tractor you will see a warning to NEVER pull by any point other than the hitch, which is ALWAYS lower than the center line of the rear end. The reason is simple physics, if you try to exceed the tractors ability to move forward (ie the mower gets stuck on something) you will not necessarily stop the wheels, and if you are pulling from ABOVE this point you are actually pulling the rear wheels DOWN, giving them more traction, and the tractor will want to lift its front-end upwards by pivoting on its rear axle instead of moving forwards. BELIEVE ME, this is easier to do than you think. If you don't believe me and are crazy enough to try it, take a chain from an implement on the 3pth and put it around the base of a utility pole or tree, in the lowest gear you have try to pull the tree out of the ground, if the wheels don't slip I guarantee the front will come up, and fast.... a sturdy bush-hog catching on a hidden stump will do the same thing, trust me, I saw it happen! Before an EXPERIENCED operator (who should have known better) could get to the clutch the machine was upside down on top of him. That is why any agricultural ground-engaging implement (plows, etc.) always have safety trips on them, if it catches on something it 'breaks away' then resets after it is clear of the obstacle. Best of luck. ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-02-23          13115

And stay paranoid Bob and Dave. When you think you've got everything figured out and get over being afraid of it, that's when it'll kill you! ....

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RobertN
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2000-02-24          13129

You may want to look at tire options. I have found that turf tires tend to be significantly wider than Ag or R4 tires for a given application. The wider foot print of a turf tire would give you better overall stability in most cases. ....

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TonyG
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2000-02-24          13140

So assuming I am creating a path straight up and down a hill, using a bush hog and a box, I should back down the hill and cut or scrape only when I am climbing the hill. I would think with a cutter or box, the heavy end would be at the tail, so i shloud do the work when loking down the hill. engine first.
do i understand correctly, 'cause it is a real world example, I want to make this path. thanks, tony ....

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Bird Senter
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2000-02-25          13145

TonyG, I think you natural instincts are the right idea. If the hill is steep enough for concern, go forward downhill and in reverse uphill. In either case, if you have a loader on the front and/or implement on the rear, keep'em low. I mow one small area on a hill steep enough that I wouldn't even think about trying to go up it forward. ....

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TomG
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2000-02-25          13146

Traction is another issue. As I understand, if a general rule is 'keep weight uphill,' a corresponding rule is 'keep traction downhill.' Guess that means almost always back down and work up.

From other discussions, I heard that breaking traction on a hill is really a bad thing to happen--especially with a full loader bucket. Generally, keeping the rear wheels on the down side gives the best chance of maintaining traction. Using 4wd also is good, and also maybe the differential lock in very marginal conditions. Guess some dirt in a uphill bucket would also add to stability.

A possible exception to the general rule might be using the rear blade on a box scraper to do the rough leveling. Could be wrong, but my instinct would be to scrap while backing downhill.

There's another idea that keeps coming to mind: Is having a road with a steep grade really a good idea? I imagine that idea was already thought through. Might be good to go through the idea again from the perspective that some things can be done but maybe shouldn't be done. Building roads with steep grades has some challenging problems, but using and maintaining such roads also can have problems.

....

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Reginald W. Lamson
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2000-02-25          13147

Tony,When you start working on that hillside your fluttering hart will tell you wich way to go.Around here you drive down and you back up.If you can flip the tractor over it's front wheels it's time to ditch it and get out your climbing rope.Murf,i'm going to try using the gas peddle this spring when i start mowing.However i think it will be hard to keep the mower up to speed with the kind of mowing i do (short runs with lots of stopping and turning around ). ....

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Murf
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2000-02-25          13149

Let me try to explain the 'weight uphill' logic, it will then be clearer why this must always be the followed. I illustrate the problem this way to new employees when they are be trained (6 companies, myself included, put on a 'school' for newbies). If you picture your tractor as being a box, with the weight of the machine being a pendulum hanging from the top center of the box, the drive wheels (rear) at one end and the steering (front) wheels at the other. When you climb a hill head-on, the weight shifts to more over the drive wheels, and less over the steering wheels, since it is (because of the engine) unlikely that they would ever lose enough traction to affect steering, and if they did, there is independant (L&R) rear brakes with which control can be maintained. If however (especially with a 2WD machine, or 4WD in 2WD mode) you were facing down slope, and lost traction on the uphill wheels, then you would lose all drive and all braking ability and have only steering to try to maintain control with. NOT a good situation! If you MUST work on slope, it should be with the front-loader, and facing up-slope. If this is not possible (ie no loader) then the next best situation is to tackle the job in 'small bites' and working bottom to top of hill. If you lose traction you can then lift the implement safely and either drive uphill with only part of the 'load' (prefered) or move a short distance ahead, drop the implement and push part of the load down slope and start again. If you are grading a slope it is highly recommended that it be done in stages, 1. loosen soil with scarifier, buster, etc., 2. move loosened soil, 3. backfill or top-dress as required. Lastly, ALWAYS remember, a trail that is flat will not last... if it runs straight up-down slope it must have a 'crown' to it. That is, the slope should run away from the center-line on a down-hill 45 deg. angle to a ditch, yes ditch, not fancy but enough that the trail won't washout, then slope work is done once, not once per rain.....If the trail is crossing a slope (going up on an angle) then it should be flat, but sloping to the INTO THE HILL, then the water will not wash the edge away. In any case, the hill should be stabilized, either with durable ground cover, for lightly used areas, or 'screenings' for more often used portions. I apologize for the length of this, but, it is in the interest of safety after all... Best of luck. ps. feel free to e-mail me, theres no such thing as a dumb question, I'm always happy to help. ....

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Jim Youtz
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2000-02-25          13154

A path straight up and down a hill is a very bad idea and sure to erode quickly and severely. Check out info on road construction and hydrology and apply these principles to your path. You can get very good assistance on this subject from your local state forestry or USDA Natural Resources Conservation Service office. Good Luck. ....

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Murf
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2000-02-25          13156

Jim, while I agree perpendicular to the slope is less than ideal, I strongly disagree with 'very bad idea'. In many cases it is a necessity because of constraints (money, space, etc.) and there is no other way. On my own property (hunt camp) I built probably a dozen of these 'ramps' many exceeding a 50% slope, in the 15 years they have existed only one washed out, and that was because of a burst beaver's dam which caused a flash flood. Otherwise they are basically untouched, and still pretty much the same condition as when they were built. Anything built PROPERLY will last. ....

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TonyG
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2000-02-25          13162

I sincerely believe that all of you who responded have experience, and in your application(s) what you advise is safest for you. I think the general consensus is to use common sense. But, you reply to face up and some others to face down. I'm going to be really careful (as always) and use my gut. If it doesn't feel right, then I'll make it so.
Yes constraints such as trees, natural slope and natural paths dictate that it is "almost" a straight up and down situation.
I'll be careful and let you know.
P.S. no loader, just bush hog or box.
thanks all. gave me much to think about. ....

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Jim Youtz
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2000-02-26          13190

Murph, I agree that you can build stabil roads perpendicular to the slope, but ditching, waterbars, crowning, and maybe revegetating have to be done exactly right (hence my recommendations for assistance). I'm a forester by profession, and we're always dealing with this issue. Sometimes you can engineer the thing to work good and othertimes they blow out with every rain or spring run-off. Soil type is the key factor. Some soils just will not wash, while others will wash just about always, no matter what you do to avoid it (again-my recommendations for further info). ....

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SteveofNJ
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2000-02-27          13207

Thought you guys who are affriad of tipping (like me) and want to be a safe operator, spend a little money and a few weeks of study. Purchase A book called Operating Techniques for the Tractor Loader-Backhoe. I will try and find the web site for you. It is about large machines, but the princibles are the same for our little compacts. I operated a Cat. Dozer 933 and a D5H for a very short time, but the idea behind the safety of the large machines applies to the little guys too. The book should be a must for any owner of a compact before he(or she) operates one with a loader or on a hill!

PS I don't even plow snow without that seatbelt. If nothing else, it reminds me of how dangerous a 1-ton machine can be, and keeps me on my toes. Pitched across a slope with a load in the bucket and no counter weight, I can see my 790 tipping without a second thought..... Keep safe and take your time. Not unlike flying a plane, when you get too confident, you are looking death in the face! If you are too sure of yourself, stop and take a break... PLAN YOUR NEXT MOVE AND ANTICAPATE PROBLEMS BEFORE THEY HAPPEN! ....

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Murf
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2000-02-28          13222

Jim, I think the difference here is that very few people on this board use a Skidder or Forwarder to drag trees out of their bush lot, they use a compact and not as many trips either. While I agree with your comment about proper construction, I disagree with the soil type having anything to do with it, you would compensate for soil conditions with the construction methods, therefore no properly designed & built project will fall apart. If it does, it was poorly built or designed or both. ....

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TonyG
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2000-02-29          13275

I do not have a loader. Only a box, or bush hog ever.

I can't imagine what it would take to flip the rear of a tractor over the front wheels.

That's why I don't think the front of the tractor should be facing uphill. If it did face uphill and you're backing down a hill and hit something, that front end is coming up and over. if you're going forward up a hill front (facing up), it would not take a lot of torque to raise the front wheels, again up and over.

Now, if you are going down a hill front end facing down and hit or catch something, no way are the rear wheels coming off the ground. And if you are backing up a hill (again, front facing down)and hit or catch something, the front wheels might come up, but the natural distribution of weight and gravity should make them drop down naturally.

Where is my logic wrong? I confess that I'm not speaking from real world experience, just my interpretation of the physical forces involved.

Does anybody have a picture or drawing they can scan and e-mail of an ROPS for an L1500, or L175. Availability may be scarce, but I'm trying to understand what makes them so costly, even though I haven't found any. Just for the record, no matter what my interpretation of physical forces is, I will not discount the possibility of it happening, and want to be prepared.

Thanks, all tgallart@iamerica.net
....

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Bird Senter
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2000-02-29          13277

TonyG, I'm not sure I entirely understand all the posts on this topic, but I think you have the right idea. Sure I drive forward up hills, when I'm sure it's safe, but if there's ANY doubt at all about a hill being too steep and I have to get on it, I'll guarantee you that the BACK end of the tractor will be on the high side, NOT the front end. ....

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Kim Hartshorn
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2000-02-29          13278

In regards to expensive ROPS...it is insurance that makes them expensive. Materials might be all of $30. I spent $30 on materials and made a ROPS built off of the sway bar brackets for my Ford 1500. Did my own welding. A OEM unit would be nice but there is no way I can afford the over $500 it looked like I was going to have to spend. I have torqued my ROPS in several directions. I dont THINK it will break. In any case I am positive the tractor is safer than it was.

Good Luck

Stay Safe

Kim Hartshorn


P.S. I agree with the earlier post that said the nose of the tractor should be downhill in iffy situations. The idea that the nose should point uphill maximizes traction. Just remember it is traction that flips the tractor. You will be more likely to climb a hill with a load with the nose uphill, it is also more dangerous. The only person in any position to make the call is the operator. So there is no rule....'ceptin the rule of physics.

....

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TomG
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2000-03-01          13291

Bird: I understand these idea theoretically rather than through experience. I stay out of places that don't feel right, so maybe I'll never gain experience.

I grasped 'keep the weight uphill' idea pretty quickly, so I guess it's pretty obvious. However, it took awhile to get the 'back down' idea. I don't think the issue is a tractor flipping end for end (unless somebody is where nobody should go), but the issue is more that a tractor might slide. The trick is how to gain control of the tractor again, or how to keep it going in a straight enough line to ride it to the bottom.

So, if the tractor is going forward down a hill, the weight transfers from the rear to the front wheels giving more steering and less traction (probably even true in 4wd due to the smaller front tires).

With the right slope and soil conditions, the traction will break and the tractor will start sliding. All four wheels may be sliding or just two at a time, and with a pivot. What to do? The main thing is to regain traction or ride it to the bottom and hope for the best.

Using the breaks is a way to regain traction, but if the rear wheels are already sliding, breaks don't help much, and having reduced weight on the rear wheels by driving down head first makes the problem worse. By the same token, having extra steering with the weight on the front may become irrelevant if the tractor picks up speed sliding downhill. If a tractor slides, there's a very good chance that it's going to pivot and roll on it's side part way down.

So, the idea of backing down is to start with more traction by using the downhill weight transfer to put weight on the main traction wheels. That way, the tractor might not break traction and start sliding in the first place.

Even if the tractor does slide, there's probably a better chance of regaining traction by using the brakes. There also may be a better chance of controlling pivots by using the separate left/right brakes than with steering. As noted, with steering and no traction, the tractor just slides faster. It should also be noted that there is some braking on the front wheels when using 4wd.

Sure hope this stuff remains theory with me. Don't think I'd like to try it for real.



....

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Bird Senter
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2000-03-01          13303

OK Tom, I understand. Fortunately, I live in relatively flat country. I do sometimes have to work on some steep spots, like stock tank dams and borrow ditches and erosion ditches, but none high or long enough for me to have to worry about losing traction and having a runaway, but I have been on a few spots that were steep enough I would worry about the tractor rearing up and going over backwards if I tried to go up forward. For instance, in mowing a stock tank dam, I back the brush hog up the dam (in 2WD - if it's too steep for that, it's time for the weedeater or leave it alone), then go back down forward, so the front end of the tractor is always on the downhill side, and if I should lose traction I don't have far to go to the bottom. When I was filling in an old stock tank, I pushed dirt ahead of me with the front loader and pulled more behind with the box blade, to the bottom of the dam, then raised both bucket and box blade barely enough to clear the ground, and backed out. ....

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Randy Eckard
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2000-03-01          13305

This is one topic I actually speak on with experience. You can control a tractor much better with front end pointed up the hill. Also, if you have directional tires(R1,R4)) your traction is greatly decreased when backing up a hill or trying to hold back driving down hill if the nose is pointed down. Also, if you are going down a hill and the rear tires start to slide, take it out of gear and hold back with brakes. Otherwise the tires will begin to counterrotate and the back end will start to come around the front. But, as stated before, the most important thing is to not traverse a hill sideways if you are at all uncomofortable. And if equipped with a loader, keep it close the ground. I would have to suspect that most compact tractors that are flipped can be blamed on a loader with the bucket to high while transporting a load.
OMO
Randy ....

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Ross
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2000-03-02          13379

I think that a good stabilizer is to load the tires the load is as low to the ground andas wide as possible.I can tell you from experiance that on a 955 with this setup in almost all conditions with this setup the machine will slide sidways down the slope before it gets light on one side. I should tell you that I have run alot of equipment on highway construction projects and shaped alot of slopes and so I think I can safely find the limit on slopes. ....

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Murf
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2000-03-03          13421

I think what is not obvious to some here, especially those that have never seen a tractor roll down-hill the WRONG WAY is that a tractor is ALWAYS more stable front-to-back than it is side-to-side. The theory is then to NEVER let the machine get SIDEWAYS on a slope. The best way to never get it sideways is to keep the chances of SLIPPING to a minimum. Since the front wheels VERY seldom slip compared to fronts (when going straight) the idea is to keep maximum weight (and therefore traction) on the REAR wheels. As for the 'up and over' situation, that will only happen on two occasions, first, power and traction exceed moveablity (i.e. load, plow, etc. gets stuck) and secondly, if you were to SUDDENLY accelerate part way up, but of course we would NEVER do that. And we are pretty unlikely to get 'hooked' on something, if we did, just stepping on the clutch would stop the rotation. Besides, if you were slipping, while facing downhill, brakes would make it worse and the clutch would just increase your speed. ....

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TonyG
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2000-03-03          13427

Yeah, now you're starting to make sense. I naturally only think end over end if going up or down a slope. Bringing in the possibility of going sideways while going down hill because you lost traction does register. You have made the clearest and simplest case. I think some of the justifications in this series of postings, got so complicated that those of us that are "simply" challenged just didn't understand. Good job.
TonyG ....

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TomG
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2000-03-04          13451

That's what I remember. If you start slipping, you're most likely going to turn and roll on the side. I guess it's better if the tractor can be kept straight enough to ride to the bottom, but chances are pretty slim.

A post last summer said the best chance of keeping the tractor straight was using the left and right brakes, but I don't remember which side he said to lock. I don't think I could do it anyway, even if it is a good idea. A post here said if you're slipping while backing down, push in the clutch and lock both brakes. I might be able to do that one. Guess the idea is that one is better if you're starting to come around, and the other is better to keep you from coming around. Murf said that brakes and clutch make it worst, but I guess that's if going down forwards.

Hope I retain good sense and never have to do any crisis maneuvers, but it might be good to have the best maneuver some place in the back of my mind.

The idea of pivoting, or counter-rotation, is that uphill weight tends to come around, and the way a differential works helps it come around. I think the idea of using brakes and the clutch is to keep the differential from counter-rotating. It would be good to hear some experience here.

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Rick Seymour
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2000-03-04          13452

I have a hill that I have to back up (Grape Arbor at the top) with my TC29D (6' 3 point Landpride finish mower & Loader). It is about 50' by 100' wide section.
The good news is if conditions are right for sliding, It is to slippery and I can't back up the hill.
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TonyG
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2000-03-04          13459

Rick how do you get to the bottom? do you also back down, or go down front end first? ....

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Rick Seymour
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 40
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2000-03-04          13461

Tony, I back up the hill w/my mower just off the ground. At the top I lower the 3pt (mower) and go down the hill forward. I also keep the front end loader close to the ground (but not to close to trip over it). I am always in 4WD when I mow, and I do not mow (at least the hills) in damp conditions.
Last fall at the 50 hour check, I had the dealer spin the wheels around to give me the widest stance (about 58" wide outside tread width).
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