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 10-03-2002, 17:22 Post: 43303
Tom Hanks
2002-10-03 17:22:32
Post: 43303
 Hydrolic malfunction

I have a New Holland 1730, recently the hydrolics just stopped working. I removed the output of the pump and initially it squirts out about 4 to 6 ounces of fluid and then stops pumping. The fluid level is ok and I replaced the filter. The only thing between the filter and the pump is about a 1 inch tube. I removed the pump and I am thinking about replacing it. However I still have some reservations because I am not sure I eliminated all the other potential causes. Any opinions would be appreciated.






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 10-04-2002, 06:07 Post: 43331
TomG

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 Hydrolic malfunction

I wonder if it's a 1720? My ramblings are specific to my 1710.

I believe the first thing to do is to recall if the pump got hot. Then, I'd check for an obstructed or broken suction line, which should be several sections of steel tubing running from the cases to the the pump and contains the filter. There are a number of banjo fittings in the line that would be convenient places for obstructions to lodge.

I'm not exactly certain how best to check the suction line--including the filter assembly. It would be convenient to hook an external pump to it and see if it draws oil from the sump. Perhaps pressurizing it a bit to see if air can be blown back through the sump might work. An alternative is to take it apart, but a new seal kit would be a good idea and the sump might have to be partially drained.

If the suction line seems clear and unbroken, I'd fill it up with oil reconnect it and give it a try. I believe these pumps are more or less self-priming so loss of prime shouldn't be an issue if the line is open.

Generally, if the suction line is open, there is adequate oil and the pump's drive is intact, then it should pump something. Partial obstructions or small breaks should cause a pump to at least pump froth and get hot. A worn pump shouldn't cause a complete loss of pumping.

My 1710 has a priority valve for the power steering on the bottom of the pump body. A priority valve could be an additional complication in trying to figure out the problem.






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 10-05-2002, 19:50 Post: 43431
Tom Hank
2002-10-05 00:00:00
Post: 43431
 Hydrolic malfunction

Thanks for the input by the way I meant to say 1715 not 1730. I removed the pump and inspected it. I didn't look bad at all. I ask the New Holland service rep what he thought about the pump. He said it looked ok and he thought I was sucking air. I reinsalled the pump and removed the filter housing manifold from the chasis. I inspected and cleaned it. It looked fine so reinstalled with no improvement. I then took a ten foot clear poly 3/4 inch hose and filled it up with fluid and put the end in a gallon of fluid. I then hooked it to the input of the pump. The front loader raised perfectly. The manifold must be leaking even though I totally cleaned it and painted it. I really can't think any other cause.






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 10-06-2002, 05:57 Post: 43436
TomG

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 Hydrolic malfunction


That's a pretty good test. If you haven't done so already, I'd remember to check the TX oil level.

Here are a few ideas. There was a problem sorted out here quite awhile ago that proved to be a crack in the filter base. However, the symptoms were different. In that case, the 3ph deteriorated after periods of mowing and the oil became hot and frothy. I suspect that it would take a pretty good-sized break in the suction line before the pump wouldn't pump anything. However, there are two o-rings per banjo fitting that could make for a lot of air space, although the ones below the sump oil level should leak noticeably if they were bad.

I guess the tractor uses a spin on filter so the element can't simply be removed for testing. There would be the possibility of applying air pressure at a rubber hose section in the filter outlet tube. Air should bubble back through to the sump. Pressure also might make a break in the line apparent. With a spin on filter, I guess the suction line could be tested in sections. I believe the nipple in the filter base goes to the suction line while the outlet line goes to ports in the base. I haven't heard of this type testing but it seems like it might work. Pressure also might dislodge an obstruction. I guess Iím still thinking it sounds more like an obstruction than a break, but either can produce the symptoms. However, either can produce hot frothy oil from a pump as well.






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 10-06-2002, 07:31 Post: 43440
TomG

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 Hydrolic malfunction

Just an after thought: If it were an obstruction, I don't know if I'd expect to be able to detect the rubber hose section flattening due to high suction or not. Some oil might leak into the pump to create a prime and then be expelled. Remaining oil in the pump would cavitate and reduce the suction. A momentary flattening of the rubber hose might be noticeable. As you probably know, it wouldnít be good to run a dry pump for long trying to test it nor is it a good idea to put a thumb over the outlet of a pump that doesnít seem to be pumping.






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 10-06-2002, 15:33 Post: 43454
Tom Hank
2002-10-06 00:00:00
Post: 43454
 Hydrolic malfunction

Thanks, I like the pressure idea. I will try that on Monday. I have been thinking it might be an obstruction inside the sump area. Since I painted the entire exterior of the manifold with enamal paint, "the same that the tractor is painted". Since I put silicon on interface to the filter housing and pump input supply pipe "I am sure that is sealed" I would think the paint would close any oriface or hole from a crack on the manifold. My question is: Could some internal crack. That does not sound possible because I think the only thing that would happen would be that the filter would be bypassed. ??????? My gut is starting to tell me that there is an obstruction. The only thing is I have removed the entire line all the way to the pump. Cleaned with steel wool and blew into the pipe. It seemed tight. I think my next step will be drain the sump area and pull the pan off. Possibly something in the reservoir is being drawn into the opening at the bottom of the sump area. The vacume may be sucking the hole closed.

One thing though that draws me back to the idea that there may be a crack is that the filter had a big dent in it. One more visual inspection and I am going to replace the manifold.

Thanks for the Help.
Tom






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 10-07-2002, 06:47 Post: 43480
TomG

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 Hydrolic malfunction

In the back of my mind I keep thinking that it would be a pain to go through all this and the explanation ends up being that the pump just needed to be primed. It's an assumption on my part that they are self-priming (because thee is little difference in height between the sump oil level and the pump). I've never heard a reference to priming the pumps on this type tractor, but some old Ford farm tractors have ports just for pump priming.

I took a look at my 1710 parts manual, and I don't think any part of the suction line extends into the cases. It looks like it's just a threaded port below the oil level that a fitting screws into.

In tear-downs I would keep in mind that there are o-rings. Tractor stores usually have a wide range of generic o-rings, but square sided rings are used here and there on some tractors, and generic rings don't work well as replacements. Myself, I'd avoid painting and sealing till I got it working. I hope the sealant doesn't complicate future maintenance. Drizzling hydraulic oil around fittings to see if it gets sucked in might be a pretty good test for breaks.

An alternative to trying pressure might be hooking an external transfer pump of similar gpm capacity to the suction line to see if it draws oil. If it started, stopped and then buzzed or knocked, it's probably that insufficient oil flows through the suction line. The pump blew its prime and then cavitated any remaining oil (pump cavitation often makes sounds like ball bearings rattling, which might have been noted from the tractor pump as well). Following up on what might have happened along with a dented filter is a very good idea.






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 10-07-2002, 11:22 Post: 43503
Tom Hank
2002-10-07 00:00:00
Post: 43503
 Hydrolic malfunction

The test I made using the clear pipe on the pump input proved the pump could pump but it was gravity fed because I placed the container holding the fluid on the big wheel. I considered the possibility that the pump is weak and losing its prime. It does sound like its cavitating some of the times. Some times there is no noise except the pump rotating. When I removed the output of the pump and started the engine the pump spurted out some fluid. When I turned the engine off a suction still remained in the input line and I could hear it sucking air backwards to fill the vacuum. I preasure washed everything around the hydrolics system. I tried putting fluid in different areas and don't see evidence of sucking the fluid in. I am going to do some more experimenting with the clear hose filled with fluid. I am going to fill it with oil as before except I am going to fasten it to the pipe coming out of the filter. This way the who circuit will be on line. Then I can tell if its just sucking air or has no oil supply. Tom






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 10-08-2002, 06:48 Post: 43539
TomG

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 Hydrolic malfunction

Sounds like you have an organized approach and are likely to find the problem. It'll be real interesting to hear what it is.

Seems like I'm into an assumptions rut the past several days. So here's another, and maybe then I'll be out of my rut. I believe that some tractors (especially those with HST) have both input screens in the cases and canister filters. I think oil flow to remotes can run through both a screen and a filter. It would be a real pain if a clogged screen was the problem. I don't believe my 1710 has a screen, and I'm assuming a 1715 is similar.






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 10-08-2002, 09:00 Post: 43550
DavesTractor



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 Hydrolic malfunction

Tom,
We recently worked through a similar problem on a Yanmar YM1510D. Our particular problem was the tractor would have to run for a couple of minuites before the pump would prime. Then it would work fine as long as the tractor did not set for more than an hour or so. We decided it probably was not the pump since it worked so well once it was primed.

On the 1510, there is a metal suction tube inside the transmission that threads into a fitting that has 2 o-rings on it. The threads and the o-rings were above fluid level, so we were sure we were sucking air at that point, just enough to lose prime. We tore the trans apart and found the fittings to be tight and leak free. That ended up being wasted time. Eventually we swapped on a used pump and our problem went away.

We did learn, at least in this application, that a good pump is self-priming. Our other pump was weak and struggled to prime, yet was powerful and quiet after being primed.

Still learning......

Dave






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