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 05-24-2003, 10:15 Post: 55473
mjw



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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

Hi all, my b8200 will not run after it sets for an hour or so. I can bleed the lines repeatedly and get it to start. Runs great after that. If I shut it down and try a restart after a couple minutes, no problem. If I let it set for a while ( maybe an hour or more ) it will sputter and stall with lots of greyish smoke. Seems like bleeding the lines ( a couple times ) will get it to run but I can't figure how air could be getting into the lines, especially because it runs great once it gets there. My thinking is if air is getting into the lines somehow, wouldn't it also get in the lines while it's running and run poorly always ?






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 05-24-2003, 20:34 Post: 55495
Morgan



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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

Must be bad deisel. You think you're bleeding the air out, but you're really bleeding out the fly eggs, leaves, water, rust, and duck doo doo that got into the deisel you bought at Agway that sat in their tanks since 1987.






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 05-25-2003, 06:19 Post: 55513
TomG

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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

From the description I guess the lines have to be bled first thing in the morning too. I'm not sure if the lines bled are the fuel or the injector lines but I imagine it's the fuel lines. When air is in my system, I can usually see bubbles coming out of the filter bowl bled screws or hear air coming out the pump bled port.

Without trying to distract you from your explanation, I wonder if another explanation might be that it's a cold starting problem. You might check the pre-heating system, the battery charge and terminal condition. Diesels start hard if the starter isn't spinning the engine fast enough. One possibility is that the cranking associated with bleeding the lines is getting the engine warmer. If one cylinder is a bit weak, it may not heat up to ignition temperature for a few cycles and would put out gray exhaust.

I'd probably also change the fuel as Morgan suggests and the fuel filter and check any in-tank screen on general principal. I'm also curious if you turn off the fuel shut-off valve when the tractor is sitting. If it's a gravity fed system, it's a little hard for me to understand how air would get into lines while gravity pressure should be present up to the pump. My understanding is sometimes at question though.






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 05-25-2003, 10:27 Post: 55536
mjw



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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

Hi again, I flushed out the tank and filled with new fuel but still have the same problem. The engine spins fast with a fresh charge on the battery and I've got the glow plugs good and hot. It is a gravity fed system and I haven't been shutting off the fuel switch at night. I start bleeding at the injector pump and finsh with the lines. I blew the fuel filter out with air so it should flow fine. I should add the the long block is a fresh rebuild. New injectors, pump, etc. Tom, your suggestion of a cold start problem sounds right on time. Now that I think about it, when it finally does run it's only after I've been spinning the engine for awhile and bleeding the lines. I'm going to go spin it a while and let you all know what I find. Maybe I've been barking up the wrong tree !






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 05-25-2003, 18:24 Post: 55549
mjw



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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

seems it's a cold start problem after all. TomG, you hit it right on the head. I spun the engine for about 15 seconds or so
five times with the decompresion knob pulled. Then hit the glow plugs for about 45 seconds. Next crank she fired up.I can't figure why it's so hard to start. Fresh fuel, glow plugs are new, as are the injectors, pump, pretty much everything. Once warmed up, she sparks up very quickly.






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 05-25-2003, 21:20 Post: 55557
Chief



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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

I had an Kubota L245TP that was the same way. The dealer salesman and mechanic had a terrible time getting the engine started and told me that "they all start that way". A simple read of the owner's manual after I ordered it and it arrived showed proper the use of glow plugs when starting the engine. It was amazing how easy the engine started when I followed the steps in the owner's manual. You would think they would start easier than that and glow plugs would not be needed all the time. Anyway, glad you got the problem figured out.






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 05-26-2003, 05:34 Post: 55563
TomG

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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

Hope I haven't just thrown another wrong tree into the mix. I'm not sure either notion is sufficiently confirmed. Some tests that support or detract from one of the other idea would be good. With all this cranking, changing engine oil after it's over might be good. Fuel the injectors put out end up in the oil if it isn't burnt.

Since it's a new rebuild I'd check the valve clearances. I never have been certain if clearances become larger or smaller when an engine warms, but close tolerances when it's cold can lose compression. I'd also confirm that battery voltage is getting to the glow plugs when the switch is on.

In diesels, glow plugs heat pre-combustion chambers to near ignition temperature. Then the heat from a few compression strokes raises the temperature enough for ignition. However, spinning the engine with the decompression open doesn't heat the engine. It might be good to check the decompression linkage to ensure it completely closes. I haven't seen the linkage but I'd guess there should be a bit of play in it when it's closed.

I'm not sure that decompression should be required for starts this time of year. A dealer tech might know. If decompression shouldn't be required, the use of it may mask the real problem. A typical use of decompression for cold starts is to open it, spin the engine for a few seconds and then close it. The starter spins faster with low compression and the extra inertia of the engine gives a few strong compression strokes when decompression is off.

Another typical cold start technique is to open the hand throttle 1/2 way or so. Higher throttle positions keep the governor supplying high fuel delivery a bit longer as rpm increases when the engine catches. It's sort of a diesel choke.






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 05-26-2003, 09:03 Post: 55583
Murf



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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

MJW, you have a bad (brand new) injector in there. What is happenening is that when you shut down the engine, the defective injector is not holding pressure and allowing the fuel in the line to drain down into the cylinder. The smoke is all that raw fuel burning off when you first start it. The machine will run (almost) normally under these condiditons since there is such a small amount of fuel that can get into the cyclinder between power strokes. The leakage must be slow because it will not lose it's prime for a few hours, however in a perefect world it should hold pressure for ever. It's unlikely you were sold 'new' injectors, they are probably rebuilt ones, and mistakes do happen.

The solution is simple, pull out all the injectors and take them to a diesel injection specialist (or the place you got them from) and have them checked.

Best of luck.






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 05-27-2003, 05:49 Post: 55694
TomG

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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

Sounds like it was in the shop and had a bunch of work done. I'm wondering how many hours are on it since the work and if always started hard since the work. I'm also curious the reasons why the work was done originally and how many total hours are on the engine. I might as well keep wondering here. I'm curious if there is any exhaust smoke while is engine running normally.

Murf's leak-down idea is a pretty good one. It's a definite candidate since most other problems would affect the engine's operation or would produce fairly immediate hard starting after shutdown. If there's are a fair number of hours on the engine since the problem started the engine oil level might have increased a bit and then leak-down is almost certainly the problem.

The trouble is that there are a bunch of candidates for hard starting and the description is consistent with leak-down but it also is fairly consistent with marginal compression, especially if there's some exhaust smoke during operation. Well, poor timing makes smoke and hard starting too. This trouble-shooting buz goes on and on, but to solve it possible candidates have to be eliminated one at a time and eventually the problem will be found. In terms of likelihood and ease of checking, the injectors seem a pretty good bet.






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 05-27-2003, 09:32 Post: 55708
Art White



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 Kubota B8200 hard starting

First thing, did they use Kubota gaskets or aftermarket for the head gasket? Did they set the valve protrusions when doing the valves? That is the most common problems we find when people call us with these type problems. Murfs idea of a poor injector still might be on the mark.






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