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DRankin
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Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2002-08-15          41282

The factory literature says the 4100 is not compatible with any backhoe. I am guessing that one of the problems might be the cast iron, cast in place, center link mounted on the transmission may not be strong enough. Are there other problems? Have any of you put a backhoe on a 4100?

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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-08-15          41287

Mark,

The problem lies with in the strength of the trans housing in general.

John Deere, and even shortline MFG's, are concerned with breaking the tractor in half.

So is the story I have been told by the "powers that be"

What I do not understand is why no one has made a smaller, genteler backhoe. Maybe they do, and I just don't know about it.

But, as I have said before, there is so much info on this forum. And It's usually good info, it would not surprise me one bit, that there will be a link posted here directing us to one withins 48 hrs.

sit back and enjoy the ride. ....

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MRETICS
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2002-08-17          41338

OK........it's been 48 hrs. and no answer yet, guess maybe there isn't a mfg company that makes a backhoe for a 4100.

Or are all you guys mocking me??

C'mon....this ain't funny guys!!! ....

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Mark L
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2002-08-19          41384

Well - This is probably going to just frustrate you guys even more but there is a manufacturer of backhoes that does claim to fit the 4100. The only small problem is that they're here in the UK. However if a small little collection of compat tractor owners like us produce enough demand there MUST be at least one company your side of the pond. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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Jim on Timberridge
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2002-08-19          41391

it was a hugh frustration for me when i couldn't find a backhoe for my trusty LX-178, too.
....

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DRankin
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2002-08-20          41400

Well, I have thrown in the towel.
When I bought the 4100, 15 months ago, it seemed the most reasonable compromise for my needs. My assessment at the time was that if I had an occasional need for a backhoe I could rent one a couple of miles away.
Two things changed that assessment.
First was the dawning realization that I had literally dozens of mature tree and juniper bush roots to remove and hundreds of feet of water lines to install.
And the second was the introduction of tractor/loader/backhoe combination by Kubota, at a price under $20K…… way under!
In some areas it is under $15K!!
I paid $14.7K for the 4100, with a box blade and a post hole digger and everyone thought I got a great deal, and I agree I did.
But almost the same price for a tractor/loader/backhoe?
Watch me switch colors!
If I could find a B/H with a sub frame that would not tear up the classic cast iron construction of my integral frame/drive train tractor, it would cost at least $7K. That makes the total investment almost $22K.
Instead, I will try to sell my, still under warranty, 70 hours on the clock, tractor/loader for about $12.9K and keep the differential to about $3700.
Not a bad price for a backhoe and I get to have it attached to a brand new tractor!
Yeah, Yeah.
I know.
It’s got little wheels.
So what?
I live on a flipping sand dune.
And I feel no need to take it into the redwoods and go logging.
Check the stats. It puts more rubber on the road than anything in its weight class. And speaking of weight, Kubota added 250# of steel to the BX2200 to create the BX22, and make it strong enough to handle a backhoe.
It’s built on a ladder frame, unlike the traditional construction of the compact Deere’s.
The BX22, without any attachments, weighs the same as the 4100 in the same condition. And it outweighs its taller (and less stable) stable mates, the B7400, B7500 and the B2410, and makes more horses than the first two.
I see it as a marvelous compromise.
It will not be as comfy as a T/L/BH twice the price, but it sure beats the hell out of crawling around on my hands and knees hacking at a bunch of decades old roots with a garden trowel and a hand axe!
TTFN, Mark.

....

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TomG
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2002-08-20          41409

Mark: You might think of what the 4100 does well for you that a larger one may not do so well. I'm not sure that a compact of any size would be ideal for taking out 100's of stumps--backhoe or not.

I've got this attitude that there always are going to be jobs too big and too small for any single tractor. I'm a little happier if I keep in mind what my tractor does rather than what it doesn't do, and I know that there are always going to be contractors and small engines in my life. I know that attitude isn't help much if you thought of the 4100 with a hoe and now find that it isn't going to work.

Maybe the 4100 really doesn't do any of your jobs that great for you and it's always going to be an undersized thorn in the foot or elsewhere. However, a dozer guy really could make short work of the stumps and save a lot of wear and tear on any compact. If the trees are a one-time project, the 4100 might be pretty good for the on-going work you have.

Does a 4100 have cast iron or cast aluminum cases? In terms of strength, stress on the tractor could be reduced by turning down the relief valve pressure in a hoe valve and by limiting the hoe's reach when digging. Stress on the cases probably could be managed, although such a hoe may not dig well even with a narrow bucket. It might work, but I don't imagine that JD would ever endorse such an approach for warranty coverage. Even if something like that did work, I don’t know what the capacity if a 4100’s hydraulic pump is. If the frame was strong enough, the hoe’s speed may be less than desirable.
....

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MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2002-08-20          41414

Hmmmmmm.

It seems as someone is suffering from an affliction of back hoe fever.

He does raise some valid points. But then again, so does the infinately wise TomG ( a great assett to this board from the great white north).

I will give my prospective. And I will try to be as objective as I can. ( I sell green stuff)

I had the opportunity to test the T/L/B in question along with a couple others of different colors. In my humble opinion, they were all just too small to be as effective as I expected. Now hold on here!!!!! I said "all" of them, thus proveing my self acclaimed objectivity.

I've been around equipmentmy entire life, and have many hours on the seat(one girlfriend described this all as the typical male/seat/steeringwheel syndrome, I concluded she was right and she is no longer a girlfriend, call me stupid, I married her) I have learned a few things.(Not about women, she is still a mystery).

The best way to put in water lines is a trencher....less damage....faster. Unless you live in a particulalrly stoney location.(Most Flippen sand dunes are not full of rocks, I grew up a few miles from Flippen, therefore, I am somewhat familier with soil types and sub-strata from that area)

None of the models that I tested, in that class, impressed me, and I could definately see someone buying one, and being disapointed in it's performance.

However, I have spent alot of time on 300 and 400 series deeres, Case 580's, and other large T/L/B's, maybe I expect too much. I will add that the 47 and 48 Deeres, and other brands of that size, to me, performed well enough that I could sell one with confidence.



No matter what or when I buy, It is only a short time before I hear of a better deal, or a better model. Such is life I guess. ....

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NonMember
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2002-08-20          41416

When I was picking up my 4110 the Dealer in Connecticut was installing a B.H. on a 4115. Yhr B.H. was manufactured in Canada. They were having some problems with the install and had to fabricate some brackets. Can't remember the name of the Canadian manufacturer. ....

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DRankin
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2002-08-20          41421

Marks view of the world, as seen through the great tractor lens:
Aside from the B/H issue, the 4100, TC18, TC21, BX22, BX1800, BX2200, B7400, B7500, B2410, B2710, B2910 and a whole bunch of others, are all pretty much the same tractor. All weigh in between 1300 and 1750 lbs. All have 16 to 30 horsepower, and in the real world they all will lift a bucket full of wet dirt on one end and pull a respectable box scraper on the other. Nobody in their right mind is going to buy one of these under 2000 pound, marvelous machines to cut and bail 100 acres of hay, plow the back 40 every spring or do the excavation chores for a commercial construction company.
So what are they good for? In my mind they are motorized shovels, wheelbarrows, rakes and lawn mowers. (Yes, I come from a time and place when a motorized lawnmower was considered a luxury.) And they are directed at folks like most of us on this CTB, ageing baby boomers with large residential lots that require a good deal of maintenence, and maybe some light construction.
These machines will never compare to a full sized ag tractor or a 15,000 pound Case backhoe, and those two machines cannot compare to one another, because they are designed to do different jobs.
The rental yard down the road will rent all kinds of specialized, heavy-duty stuff for $200 to $300 per day. My tractor payment is $249 a month. So if I get a days work out of the thing once a month I am ahead of the game. If it takes a half-day to dig around a tree root enough to cut it loose that’s ok. A bigger, more powerful machine could get it done in an hour, and a 52 year old guy with a lot of bar fights under his belt could do it in two or three days with a shovel and an axe, and then spend another two or three days taking aspirin.
Tom. The whole rear end of the 4100 is constructed of cast components. It has a single place to attach the center link for the TPH. That lone place is a pair of ears cast into the axle housing. Deere will no longer even recommend the use of a posthole digger with this arraignment, although it appears to me to be strong enough for that usage, given a modicum of care. The shock loads from a TPH mounted hoe would most likely bust off one of the ears and maybe crack or break the axle housing.
In summary, I currently have a 1500-pound, 20 HP ‘estate’ tractor. I am going to end up with a 1500 pound, 22 HP ‘estate’ tractor with a light duty backhoe. And at $4k or less, my out of pocket cost will be less than the price of any backhoe on the market.
Anybody wanna buy a tractor?
....

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MRETICS
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2002-08-20          41425

OK Mark,

Your last post was well thoughtout and you have proven to me that you are not flying off the handle.

I give you my blessing.

Rock on Dude! ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-08-21          41453

$4,000 sounds like a good price for getting what may be a permanent irritation out of one's life. I'd probably got for it too.

A similar discussion on another board occurred awhile back regarding a BX. Finish mowing was the main use and the BX mowed just fine; it just didn't do the rest of the work very well. I believe trading up was more costly than $4000 but the owner sounded a lot happier afterwards.

Wish I could remember which tractor I saw a picture of where a chunk of the cases around the top-link bracket was broken out. These things do happen. If I'm not very careful, I think my 12" PHA beats on the 3ph more than anything else I have. I'm not surprised JD added PHA's to its list no 4100 don'ts.
....

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jyoutz
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2002-08-23          41539

Mark, I won't argue with anything you have posted, although I wouldn't trade my 4100 for one of those lighter duty BX machines with far less 3PH and loader lift capacity. But, I am a forester by profession. I'm very familiar with land management treatments, stumping included. I would never spend my time messing around with trying to pop acres of juniper stumps with a compact tractor-backhoe. Too much effort, too stressful on the equipment, too ineffective. Juniper stumps are tough, tough, tough. I would hire someone with a small dozer like a Case 450, JD 550, Caterpiller D4, ect... They can accomplish more in one afternoon than you could in a month's time. And they won't tear up the ground so much in doing this. You could then use your compact tractor and box blade or rake to smooth out the ground and clean-up. Also ditto on the discussion about the trencher being the way to go for waterline. Unless you have other uses for the backhoe, I certainly wouldn't buy one for the tasks that you describe. ....

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DRankin
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2002-08-23          41555

Jyoutz, good input. Here is how I see it and why.
4100 vs BX22:
Weight… 1517 vs. 1525,
Wheel base… 59 vs 55,
Width …43 vs. 45,
Horsepower… 20 vs. 22,
FEL… 882# @ the pivot point vs 460# @ bucket center (translation 775# @ pivot pin)
Bucket… 49”@ 6 cu ft. vs 48“@ 6 cu ft
3PH… 930# vs. 680# (I tried putting 900# on the back end of the 4100 and the front wheels came off the ground each time I engaged the clutch and yes I had the loader on the tractor. 650# seems like the maximum ballast a 1500# tractor can tolerate without adding extra weight up front to counter ballast. The heaviest implement I use is a 48” box scraper @385#)
Tires size, front… 5” wide vs. 8.5”
Tire size, rear …..9.5” wide vs. 12”
Backhoe … Not available, not recommended vs. designed with B/H in mind.

I have told myself a hundred millions times not to exaggerate, I have hundreds of square feet (not acres) of bushes (not trees).
The dozer: good idea under most circumstances but 75 % of what I need to clear is under the eaves of the house, or on 35 degree slopes within 2 feet of the house and decks, or growing on top of the septic, leach field and water lines or growing beneath the drip line of fruit and shade trees that I want to keep. The m/o is to clear the brush by hand using an anvil lopper and cart it off, then go in with the Kubt-hoe and make a little crater around each root system and chop it with an axe below ground level and refill the hole. Labor and time intensive but it’s the only way I know to do it without damaging walls, septic, decks, fruit trees etc.
In short it is the same work I have been doing with a shovel and a pick, just a lot faster and easier.
....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2002-08-23          41557

Mark, while I applaud your economics & logic generally. I think you missed what some of the others here in the audience were trying to say. I am a firm believer of the logic of very carefully considering a problem, looking at it from every angle, then asking someone completely detached from the issue for the right solution, LOL. Seriously, I am as guilty as anyone else of not 'seeing the forest for the trees'. Case in point, I carefully planned out how to remove a prized (85 year old) rose bush for a week. On the appointed Saturday morning I was all set, my work planned to DEATH. 2 minutes before I started a 21 year old employee said, "But Boss, the big backhoe will reach there from the driveway, why screw around?" Problem solved, the rose bush and about 3/4 yard of soil around it were moved in 3 minutes. DOHHHH!!!! I hate when they do that!!!

Sorry, Mark, I digress. Not to overlook the obvious, have you thought about merely wrapping a chain around the Junipers and hitching them to a (4 ton curb weight) pickup truck and taking them for a one-way drive?..... We have wild Junipers around here that stay put better than a politician nearing retirement age.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2002-08-23          41558

Been there, tried that. The Toyota Tundra would budge 'em. I think I am hearing what is being said. I am patient and retired. I won't be disappointed if I can't rip things out of the ground with a single swipe. If I gotta dig a ten foot circle around each one of those suckers I'll do it. Is anyone saying the pick and shovel will be more effective? ....

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Big Eddy
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2002-09-06          42083

I'm with Mark. He's thought it through, he wants a backhoe, and $4K for one with a new tractor his solution is cheaper than buying just a backhoe. I'd do it too.

Mark's getting lot's of good advice as well, as to the "effectiveness" of a small backhoe.

My position - as long as you are comfortable with the capabilities of the BX solution, and it meets your needs - go for it. My 855 with backhoe doesn't compare to a 580, I recognize it, and I don't ask it to. I even rented a full-size to do a specific job, because it needed to be done quickly, and would have taken too long with mine. Was worth the money for the time savings.

My only recommendation is that you insist the dealer allow you to trial the BX for a couple of weeks (days at least) before you ink the deal, and whatever you do, don't allow then to sell your trade until your deal is finalized and your trial period is over. That way you know what the BX is capable of, and if it doesn't live up to your expectations, you still have your 4100 to fall back on. ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-06          42086

My only concern at this point, having never seen a BX22 (I did drive a 2200) is how will I fit on it. There is not another reasonable alternative T/L/B combo out there.
As Mr. E points out the next jump in backhoe performance is way up the line, up to the Deere 4700. And while I have not priced such a package, you can bet the baby’s milk money it will be pushing $35K and $700 monthly payments.
Another thing I have learned is if you put a BH on a 4100 the ROPS has to go. No way even a midget could sit under it on an elevated rear seat. Wanna guess what a replacement foldable ROPS costs?
Plus the removal of said aftermarket hoe would require a lot of tool and laying under the tractor time, not just the pull four pins and go deal.
I will learn to adapt to the BX22 performance parameters, no choice, can’t afford the next level of performance. I just have to make sure my 6’3”; 280# and size 14’s are going to be compatible with the BH seating arrangement.
....

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MRETHICS
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2002-09-06          42088

Mark, you seem to know what you are getting into. I do not know anything you have not considered. You are going into this transition with an open mind. Again, with my blessing.

I will not accept the pick and shovel challenge on the juniper stumps. I'm just gettin' to old for that stuff.

Best of luck! ....

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DRankin
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2002-09-06          42097

Just back from the dealer where I got to inspect the first BX22 to arrrive in the area. The driving position is a little tight for me, but I knew that for trying a 2200. I was greatly surprised by the BH seating. Very comfortable. Lots of room for feet, knees, heads and other body parts. Also evident: doubled steel in many ares of the frame. Think this may work out. More later. ....

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