Go BottomDiesel fuel power
 | Jim on Timberridge
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 172 La Crosse WI 
|
2002-04-17 37558
I've seen several conversations on this site about tractor power, such as will a certain size accomplish a certain function (eg plowing).
So how much effect does the quality of the diesel fuel have on the power output. Are there factors like #1 vs #2, and age of the fuel?
Also, I recently cranked up my 4700 and was amazed at the relative lack of guts it demonstrated. The #2 fuel sat in it over the winter (no snow in Wis to plow); the filters are okay and it doesn't seem to have a gelling problem, just seemed doggy. I'm draining and putting in fresh this weekend, but thought I'd ask the question: does diesel lose something over time?
jim
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
|
2002-04-18 37572
Diesel fuel can be stored for years. However, there is a risk of algae growth, which is a real mess I hear. I think that algae tends to come from low volume fuel dealers who may also have questionable storage methods. I'm not sure of the role that condensation from poor storage methods over time plays in algae growth. Actually, we pumped out an old furnace tank at our camp before we demolished the building and added it to our other tank. I ran it through a 10-micron filter and it burnt fine. The oil dealer didn’t think the filter was needed if we didn’t pump to the bottom of the old tank. We figured the oil was between 5 and 10 years old. Of course an oil burner and a diesel engine aren't the same but furnace oil and #2 diesel are.
There's a chance that your #2 that over-wintered was already a winter blend that was adequate for the area and didn't gel. I'm not sure if fuel distributors make winter blends by adding #1 diesel (aka stove oil) to #2 or if they use the compounds found in anti-gel additives.
If did gel, there is some difference of opinion as to how warm it has to get to un-gel, if at all. However, the fuel doesn't have to turn into Jell-O to create problems. Fuels have cloud point ratings. Cloud point is the temperature at which wax particles start forming in the fuel (it becomes cloudy). Wax particles eventually clog fuel filters. Some #2 fuel have cloud points just below freezing, while #1 is around -25F and probably lower with anti-gel. If the doggyness continues, you might try changing the fuel filter. If that clears it up, then the fuel tank probably should be drained.
In terms of power, #1 fuel has fewer btu's and does produce less power than #2. However, it's not a huge difference. I start buying off-road #1 in the fall. By January I'm running close to 100% #1. I do this because sometimes I end up with a can of #2 I bought earlier and don't know if it's a summer blend or not, so I do my own winter blends. I use a fuel conditioner with anti-gel as well.
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
 Pics
|
2002-04-18 37592
I am pretty new to this diesel fuel arena, but I am getting the notion that what the EPA did to gasoline in 1975, they did to diesel fuel a couple of years ago. The result of the 1975 decision is that if you have an older car that was not designed for unleaded fuel you must add a lead substitute to each and every thankful of gas to keep the engine healthy.
And it is now the same with diesel. The reduced sulfur content is causing serious engine problems, especially in the area of injector pumps and injectors. I think that it is necessary to add a fuel enhancer that will replace the missing lubricants if you want you diesel to run as it was designed to run.
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
|
2002-04-19 37618
True enough about the diesel additives from all I've heard. I think it's pretty definite that older injector pumps were engineered assuming that some lubrication was present due to sulfur in the fuel. A fuel conditioner with pump lubrication is a good idea.
The conditioner I use is a 'one thing does everything' (including anti-gel) product. However, the product is yellow in colour, so I wonder if I'm just adding the sulfur back that the refiners have to take out. Seems like a pretty dumb possibility, but maybe I'd better buy a 20 year supply of it. Somehow I just don't think that government/commercial solutions are likely to hinge on the problems of old tractor owners in rural areas.
There is the possibility that pumps in newer tractors are engineered for lower sulfur content, but I don't know. I also believe that some owners may be operating under a misconception that off-road fuel or furnace oil has higher sulfur contents so using one of them solves the pump lubrication problem. There might be some differences, and perhaps more so when new standards come into effect. For the most part, I think that taxed, off-road and furnace oil comes out of the same refinery tap. The main difference is the dye that is added.
Quite awhile ago, somebody pointed out that sulfur contents wouldn't get too high even without regulation. If it gets above, I believe 2% was the figure used, then it pays refiners to reclaim the sulfur. Of course, maybe 2% are astronomic sulfur contents by current standards
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
Pics
|
2002-04-19 37628
Like with gas there is definately a difference in the power in the diesel. My truck has a computer to calculate the milage and if I get a bad tank my fuel consumption can increase by as much as 1 -1.5 mpg (5-8 percent).
Will it change over time? If the tank was open to the air then you may loose the lighter more volatile components out of the diesel. The lower fraction has the greater Octane rating and loss of power.
Your tractor has a polyethylene fuel tank. Plastic auto gas tanks must have multilayers different plastics to prevent the respiration of the lighter components through the walls of the tank. If this happened in the diesel then you would also loose the higher power content over time.
Could you spot this as a power loss? Maybe if the tank as not full before you put it away and you had a high low fraction fuel.
I better explaination would be that the tractor sat and the rings or valves are not seating properly. Bare metal will rust even in a valve train. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
| Greg H
Join Date: Posts: 1
|
2002-04-19 37630
In reference to the absence of sulfur: according to Mobil the sulfur is not the lubricant, but the de-sulferizing process changes the fuels lubrication properties. They claim to add back lubricants to their diesel. Do I believe them, naw, I add some anyway.
FYI
Greg H ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
Pics
|
2002-04-19 37637
Greg;
I wish I knew more about the process of desulfurization. I am not sure what is causes the change.
There was a sulfur compound that was used as a magic motor oil additive. This was a long carbon chain molecule that would be a rare fraction in diesel oil.
Lubricating base stocks are long chain carbons, short chain polyethylenes (PE) and other naturally occuring compounds. Synthetic oils are all short chain PE with a few additives. There should be a component of these in the diesel oil naturally. These chains are what provide the lovely the gel point in cold weather or waxing out.
What caused the change with desulfurization? I can not see that the extraction of the sulfur compounds would affect the short PE content. The chemical nature is quite different.
I wonder if this is mostly a winter blend problem when the amount of short PE is reduced?
I don't believe there is any sulfur in JP1. The pumps on the turbines are much higher tolerances than the diesels and require lubrication.
May be that they are cutting the fractions pretty fine these days as the value of a gallon of lubricating oils is much higher than diesel. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
|
2002-04-20 37663
Yep, it raises the sort of questions I like. Now that I think about it, it's doubtful that elementary sulfur is present in fuel. But even if it were it doesn't seem like it would be a very good lubricant unless it's in a form similar to graphite.
Long chain hydrocarbons that contained sulfur might have lubricating properties, so reducing the sulfur content may require removing these compounds. So, would I trust a fuel refiner to tell me that their additives are OK for my old injector pump? Agree! Probably not, and I'll just keep an additive since it seems like pretty cheap insurance.
I can speculate all day long, but sometimes it's nice to know things for sure. Maybe somebody here knows about these things. As long as I'm wondering about things, I'll wonder if the stuff that quick start spray manufacturers add to replace the oil the either washes off the cylinders walls is the same thing added to highly refined diesel fuel?
I made a comment earlier that some #2 fuel can cloud around freezing. That's what my fuel additive can says. Somebody did some research awhile back, and I believe a fuel distributor's stats gave 15F as a typical cloud point for their summer blend #2.
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
| Southerner
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 11 laurens,SC
|
2002-11-22 45270
I just run off road diesel available locally for farm equipment and other tractor type equipment. It is the same diesel that was available before the sulfur was cut back. It is also red in color so that it can be identified as off road diesel by the DOT when they bust you running it in a big truck. This fuel also burns hotter which equals more power and also contains the sulfur non automotive diesel fuel pumps need for lubrication. I sometimes run this fuel in my Ford with a 7.3(farm tag) and notice a little more smoke. There can be as mich as a $.50 price difference per gallon(cheaper) with the off road fuel. ....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add PhotoDiesel fuel power
| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
|
2002-11-22 45274
That dye is detectable for a long time I hear. Off-road #2 is about the same as furnace oil, which also is dyed and I wouldn't hesitate to pump some out of the top of my furnace oil tank. I don't know if furnace oil supplied to me has reduced sulfur content like the diesel fuel. Wouldn't make much difference since I use an additive with pump lubricant in everything anyway.
Summer blend #2 does give a little more power and I suppose may smoke a bit more. But it is possible for it to cloud even in the South. When I was stationed in Biloxi it got down to 14F. It was about the coldest I've ever been since the Air Force believed it's a tropical area and didn't issue cold weather gear. They still made us stand in formation though. I could have used some winter blend blood I think. At least the barracks had cold weather furnaces so we maybe had about the only warm places in town.
....
Reply to |
Quote Reply |
Add Photo
Go Top
Share This