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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Diesel Fuel Lubrication Engine Additives Forum

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 03-18-2002, 22:47 Post: 36483
DRankin



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Well, I haven’t stirred the ‘oil pot’ for a while, so here it goes with the latest observations and factoids. Dr. Peters take note. I look forward to your sage observations on the following:
1) In my area (Northern Nevada) Quaker State is advertising on the boob toob that if you use their oil and change it at their specified intervals that they (Quaker State) will warranty the internal parts of your engine for 10 years or 250,000 miles (?!!).
I didn’t believe it the first time I heard it so I waited until I heard it again. They did not specify which oil or the change interval, but to the best of my knowledge they do not market synthetic oil. Pennzoil (same outfit) does, but they usually do not cross-pollinate. This, to my mind, is astounding news. I do not think a company this size plays near the edge of the window. They gotta know that most engines treated in a similar fashion will go a half million miles or more before they make a guarantee like that.

2) Information from the Pennzoil website: Some guy with a Chevy pick-up and a really long paper route came to their attention recently. Seems he drove 800 miles a day and got his oil changed at the local quick lube every 4 or 5 days, always using some unspecified Pennzoil product. They started paying attention as the miles began to add up and when he hit one million (yes, miles) they traded his old truck for a new one and did some forensic work. Check the web site for the details, but they found cross-hatching still present on some of the cylinder walls and most of the specs within normal parameters. God only knows what the drivers seat must have looked like by then.

3) As I reported last month, much to the chagrin of some rather humorless folks, Deere is now marketing semi-synthetic oil and recommending that we owners can extend our change interval by 50 percent over whatever our owner’s manual said when we bought the machine. They go so far as to say that this is applicable to any diesel engine made by anyone, anywhere. We know for damn sure and certain that old green does not play near the edge, so what is happening here? Have we reached a time when the additive packages are that good? Or has the science of metallurgy and engine building reached a zenith? Or both? Or something more than this? I look forward to your thoughts, one and all.
Mark






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 03-19-2002, 06:34 Post: 36490
TomG

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I think I'd want to see some test results from an independent lab.

A cynical view might be that what is being played really close is the idea that market share is everything. Many individuals are excluded from warranty coverage due to weasel words or disinclination. The warranty may be for parts only, and many people faced with an old car and big labour costs for a rebuild may simply dump the car and get another one. There may be few people who pursue these warranties.

Creating excitement is everything in retailing, and a big warranty is exciting. If a company gains a larger market share, then they can afford to buy a few parts. Anyway, I think it's a common view now that the lifetime guaranteed exhaust systems aren't of any better quality than systems without guarantees. I guess I start out with a healthy skepticism here. Maybe there's something to new oils and additives and maybe it's mostly a marketing scheme.






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 03-20-2002, 16:07 Post: 36542
Peters

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Mark;
1) I have seen the advertising but there is fine print I am sure. The earlier program required change intervals and only Quaker State enter the engine.
It does indicate that they have confidence in their oils. From my testing they have one of the best hydrotreating processes at their new plant.
Quaker state does sell a synthetic. I used only the Quaker State semi-synthetic in the Ford I had. I found it performed as well in a none high performance engine at half the cost.
In the turbo Volvo I had up to 200K I used the Castrol full synthetic. For some reason the Quaker State is not perform as well in the heat of the turbo.
2) I have seen a couple of these. Remember that most of the wear occurs when starting and engine. This is where the oils will perform or not. If you keep an engine running constantly there is less wear. If he is on the road that much then? The oils companies normally run tests in Taxi cabs as there are a lot of starts.
Road diesel normally get more than 1M miles.
There was a small Lister diesel electric power plant that used the waste heat to heat hot water in the house and warm the house. As the system ran constantly and they had a large oil tank so it did not over heat, they were talking yearly oil changes. You could run the system on natural gas.
3) I would think it is more likely the oil than the metal. Deeres diesel construction has not changed that much although the QC on the incoming metal is better in the last 10-25 years. Trace analysis is done before casting.
As I stated before one of the reason I have not used synthetic diesel oil is that I could not find any for sale here. Well yesterday I found some. At $108 dollars a case now I think I am looking for the semi at Deere.






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 05-02-2002, 11:32 Post: 38063
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It's time to change my hydraulic oil because I bent adn have to replace my tranny suction line leading from my hyd. filter. Anyway it's tough to spend the $13.50/ gal cost of super udt or even the udt costs and am looking to buy Pennzoil Hydra-Tranz instead. Even if I don't go that route I still want to know why and who makes their oils and why is it so superior... PLEASE someone here has to know who manufactures Kubota oil.

I was actually working in one of my ponds cleaning it out with my excavator (well trying) and then decided to move some fill on the bank and decided to run over the spoil first and then get a better footing. Well the pile was combined with major rock (easily 2 feet in diameter and bigger) Well to make along story short I managed to get almost hung up on the pile binding up my throttle linkage with the hydraulic line that runs from my hyd. filter to the trans case. I wasn't going to worry about it until I seen the bend and the angle it was entering the trans case allowing fluid to drip out and thus probably get air sucked in. I still don't know what I am going to do but have to make up my mind as the parts are coming later this week. I will probably take the easy route and just buy the Kubota oil unless I find something or someone that uses something different.

It's funny that Kubota doesn't recommend their oil in my excavator KX91-2 but states the vis. ratings and a couple manufacturers. I'm not next to the manual and can't remember who but nothing Kubota. Hmmm. But does state----don't mix oils viscosity or manufacturer... Go figure.


check this if you like

http://oil-store.com/OEM%20Specs.htm

Darin






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 05-02-2002, 12:48 Post: 38068
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Ok Darin;
How do I get paid for this consulting? Are you going to come over and dig out my ponds?
From the price the UDT should be a full synthetic oil. I can not see any indication form Kubota or any of the other manufactures that it is a full synthetic. It seems to be cross referenced to normal hydraulic oils by the manufactures.
" ... Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil exceeds the hydraulic and transmission
fluid performance ... J20C, J20D, J14C; Kubota, UDT - All; Landini - All; ... "
To reduce cost I would give you have 2 options
1) Go to a full synthetic, normally for the same price, but you may be able to find a sale. Make sure it is cross referenced with the UDT.
2) Use one of the cross referenced natural oils. The Pennziol is from their patented hydrotreating process, which from my measurements and oil engineers reports is a superior process. You can also use the Quaker State product which is just badge engineered Pennzoil. Go for the least expensive.
I am not sure how much residual oil you will have in the system. If the oil is cross reference I don't think you need to worry, just don't add a quart of a different oil.






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 05-02-2002, 12:53 Post: 38070
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PS
Personally I would decide on an oil that you are happy with for both the excavator and the tractor and stick with it.






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 05-02-2002, 15:01 Post: 38074
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Excellent info and thanks a bunch. You see that's what I am trying to find out which oil I can use for both hydraulic applications but one needs a trans fluid combined and the other just asks for ISO 32 or 68. I'm at a lose here because I am collecting all sorts of different oils. Dang it's mind boggling. ha,ha.

Well I bit the bullet today becaues my part arrived and I still didn't have my oil so I went to the orange store and bought the super udt which I don't personally feel it's superior though but it's my safe gaurd I guess. The service manager basically just stated that for the extra 20 buck per 5 gal you know what you have, which is true I guess but still want full syn oil for all my equipment. I also have a ford 7.3 turbo diesel which is a pain too. Certain oils, coolant, & fuel additives. WOW!!!! I just want my things to run. ha,ha.

Oh since I've got you here what the general thoughts on the coolant that is run in these machines. I've flushed and just put in fleetcharge (purple color) in both excavator and L35. In the ford I haven't finished that one yet. Thanks again.

Darin






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 05-02-2002, 16:48 Post: 38076
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Oops almost forgot. WHen you mentioned don't mix a quart or any oil does that mean viscosity or brands? It states something like that in the manuals and am wondering why or if I really should be concerned by doing it.

Darin






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 05-02-2002, 19:19 Post: 38082
Peters

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I would think the trans/hydraulic oil is probably a better grade than the regular oil. According to the spec sheet the Hydro-Tranz is a ISO 68. Go for it.
Do not mix oils from different manufactures, unless it is a necessity. Even the different sources of for the oil (each well - area is different could cause some incompatibility problems. It is better to be safe than sorry. Certainly do not use the old oil can that maybe some years old. The SAE codes tell you that the new oil is far different than the old. Start a antique collection.
As for anti freeze I normally just look for multi metal compatibility and have been using the low tox propylene glycol in the tractors. Again I am looking for something I can buy by the case and can use in anything. My Cummins has a aluminum rad so I need to be careful.
I am not prone to using the OEM (original equipment manufacture) oil. I do with the Deere as the oil is the same price as the other oil commonly sold in this area Dutch oil, but in general I would rather buy oil from an oil and refining company. I am unsure about Dutch oils refining so I stick with JD. The reason I do not normally buy the OEM material is that they will change suppliers based on price not necessarily quality of the product. You may have totally different oil in the can with the same label.
On example is batteries, Dekka (east penn manufacturing), Delco, Johnson Control, Exide, GNB and two other small players make car batteries in this country. All the others are just labels slapped on the side of the case, so to speak . What do you get if you buy a Diehard. Who knows?






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 05-03-2002, 05:29 Post: 38096
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Regarding coolants: There are coolants specifically for diesels. I believe they are low-silica types and have additives to reduce cavitation.

Some diesels are especially prone to cavitation, and the additive degrades over time. I believe that test strips and additives are on the market--wish I could recall what it's called. For engines that are especially prove to cavitation, I've heard of drip systems that continuously replenish the additive.

Excessive cavitation can erode water jackets and wet sleeves to the point of leaking coolant into the crankcase. However, I haven't heard that excessive cavitation is a problem in typical compact tractor engines. My dealer just recommends changing coolant every two years—something not mentioned in my manuals.






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