Go BottomCub Cadet 7205 PTO clutch problem
 | KonaCoffee
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 12 Captain Cook, Hawaii 
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2004-06-10 88281
Hi:
I've got a three year old Cub-Cadet 7205 tractor with 405 hours on it. When the PTO is engaged or not engaged, life is good everything works (and sounds) fine. However, when I step on the clutch with the PTO engaged (at any engine RPM) there is a loud "clicking" noise coming from the "bell housing" of the transmission, located beneath the instrument console. The noise goes away instantly if I disengaged the PTO "on-off" lever.
The dealer says that this most likely indicates a worn PTO clutch pressure plate. His hood-of-the-tractor estimate for repair is 20 hours of labor at $75 per, and about $800 worth of parts (remember, I'm in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, everything is more expensive out here).
He admits to being mystified as to how this could be in this shape in only 400 hours (I'm the second owner), and he says there are no additional diagnostics available to narrow this down any further. The same dealer has done all of the routine service since the tractor was new (however, the last service was at 200 hours, two years ago). Further, he says it might last another 1000 hours, or it could fail completely tomorrow.
So, my questions are:
1) Do the signs I'm describing sound familiar to anyone?
2) If I just go with it as is, am I setting myself up for a more catastrophic failure down the road? It works fine now, so one part of me says use it until it fails hard.
3) Being on an island, there is no obvious source for a second opinion, so any thoughts on how to get a second opinion?
4) If you've had this kind of surgery before, is 20 hours a reasonable labor number? He says the tractor has to be literally "split in half".
Thanks!
Jonathan
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| mj4ster
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 5 NY
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2004-06-12 88361
My 7205 does the same thing, I have less than 300 hours. It did it since new. I run a mid-mount deck and it will only do it when I push in the clutch to disengage the deck, and then just for a couple of seconds until the deck stops spinning.
I wouldn't worry about it, I don't. I don't have the service manual, but I would say there is a one-way sprague that slips (clicks) and won't allow an implement to input torque to the system. ....
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| mushing_madness
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 23 Southeast Minnesota
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2004-06-14 88508
My 7305 (1998 w/ 500 hrs) makes the same "clicking" sound as you describe when I have the rear PTO engaged and push in on the clutch. It has done this since I bought it (350 hrs). I don't know if it is a problem - everything seems to work fine. ....
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| KonaCoffee
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 12 Captain Cook, Hawaii
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2004-06-14 88511
Hi:
I appreciate the responses. I just had too much trouble believing that there was a serious problem in such a young tractor. Also, the service guys were not confident what the problem was and I wasn't willing to go on a fishing expedition at my expense, especially since the machine works just fine.
Thank you for your comments about similar behavior in your machines!
Jonathan ....
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| bluetay
Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 44 Shippenville,Pa. 16254
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2004-06-15 88634
It is my understanding from questioning the same thing that this series of cub cadet has a over running coupler on the pto drive just as mj4ster suggested thus not to worry. ....
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| mj4ster
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 5 NY
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2004-06-16 88705
Another point of interest, several years ago I had a Satoh S650G which is also a Mitsubishi tractor. This machine exhibited the exact same condition and I never had a problem with it.
The more disturbing point not yet noted here is that your dealer was ready to charge you $2500 for a problem that doesn't exist. You would think that this is not the first tractor he's sold and should be aware of the condition. ....
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| bigrock
Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4 Westby WI
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2007-04-02 140937
I have a 7305 with 1200 hrs. Use it for landscaping and around my farm. Been a good tractor but I have the same problem only it's also when you are putting power to the pto. I know that the clicking is an over running clutch. Have talked to a dealer in the area but they don't sell the bigger compacts so they have never had one apart. I am trying to find the tech service manual. Any suggestions? ....
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| KonaCoffee
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 12 Captain Cook, Hawaii
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2007-04-02 140945
Almost four years and 400 more hours later things are still working fine. I purchased my service manual and parts lists from the dealer. Frankly, I find the owners manual has more useful information for what I need to do. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York 
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2007-04-07 141116
It is an over-running clutch that is making the noise. I've never heard of it on start up but definitely on disengage. You might be on the way out if it is ratcheting on the way in. ....
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| bigrock
Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4 Westby WI
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2007-04-23 141434
FYI Wound up splitting tractor and replacing overruning clutch. Mating surfaces rounded over. You can see the clutch through the oil fill hole. Quite a job to slpit with loader and mower brackets. 2 days. Working like new again. Wil have to keep an eye on it. 1200 hrs and worn out. Not happy about that. ....
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| frankielee
Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 7 minnesota
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2009-05-26 162983
I just encountered the same problem with my cub year 2000 - 7305. Really ticks me off that this thing only has 250 hours of very light use....3 acres gentle flat mowing with a 72" rear deck and I till a very small garden every year. Dealer says over running pto clutch $1150 labor and $750 parts. $1900!! Has anyone heard of anything class action on this? This is just plain wrong! I could see this being a problem at 25,000 hours, not 250! This machine has always clicked when you apply the clutch, since day one. Now they're telling me that the clicking noise was the sound of the gears rounding off! Hello! What's wrong with this picture? Anyone else suffered this fate? Really ticked at Cub! ....
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| bigrock
Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4 Westby WI
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2009-05-26 162984
My 7305 now has 1800 hrs. I did the fix myself. You can see the over running clutch through the hyd oil fill hole right under the front of the seat. May have to remove the seat but with a light, you can see the mating surfaces of the clutch. Hard to believe that it would be gone in 250 hrs. My tractor works hard in my landscaping business. Lots of hard impact type of work from tillers and grading machine. If the mating surfaces are rounded over, It won't work. I bought the parts from dealer and I think they cost about $350. Tractor has to be split to do it. If you have a loader and belly mower like I do it is a big job. If just a bare tractor. Not so bad. Where in MN are you? I am in LaCrosse Wi area. Bigrock email wangrdggar@yahoo.com ....
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| frankielee
Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 7 minnesota
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2009-05-27 163006
Hi Bigrock,
Yeah, it's unbelievable that there could be this type of failure at only 250 easy hours on my Cub 7305. As I said, I only mow a couple of acres and till a small garden. The tractor has never left my property, had never seen commercial action. I've babied it. MTD told me just today that there's nothing they will do for me. Dealer is quoting different labor prices every time the wind changes. They initially told me $1150 labor, $519 parts, total= $1669. This morning I went in and talked with the service manager. He then told me $1900. The rep at MTD said, "They want how much to do that? The parts are only $306.84 list!" acting as if their price was way out of line. Who to trust?
Was it a big job? I do have a FEL bucket, no under belly mower. Unemployed remodelor right now, can't afford that kind of money but acreage starting to look really bad as we speak.
Thanks for responding.
Frank ....
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| joegoesfishg
Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3 USA
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2010-09-12 173979
Just thought I'd weigh in on this. The clicking sound when the PTO is disengaged with an implement still turning is a normal sound you here from the overide clutch.
The clicking snapping while using an implement is trouble. At 1300 hrs I started using a tiller. Within 1 hour of use I heard a clicking & noted slippage with the drive to the tiller. The override clutch was trashed. $1,300.00 later I get the tractor back. This time I'm careful to purchase a new slip clutch for the tiller, adjust it to assure it slips. After several hours of use, the overide starts slipping & clicking again. This is definitely a weak link. When I have some downtime, I'll fix it myself. This time I'll have the slip clutch set very, very loose. Not happy as this is a major pain. This is not the most durable tractor out there, but it'll do for my purposes.
Joe ....
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| frankielee
Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 7 minnesota
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2010-09-12 173981
With all due respect to the posters on this thread, I'd be willing to debate strongly that this clicking sound is nothing to worry about. These tractors have a major flaw in that when the clutch is engaged while the PTO is running, that clicking sound IS the sound of the PTO clutch rounding itself off, no ifs ands or buts.
I guess what ticks me off the most about this whole deal is that at no time did my dealer ever warn me about even a remote possibility of catastrophic failure due to this problem. And I consider a $2000 repair on a tractor with only 250 hours not only catastrophic, but really poor design. At the very least, a warning should have circulated to dealers and then to owners explaining the problem.
The second major beef I have about this issue is that my dealer wanted $2K for the repair, and I got it done by a very qualified tractor mechanic for all of $800, parts and labor. Now I understand that the dealer has overhead and such, but that's just hiway robbery in my book. Hard to have any loyalty to a brand or dealer when they try and bend you over like that, especially considering that they acted as if they've never encountered the PTO clutch failure, and I now know that they've seen this as an issue before on other 7305s.
Planned obsolescence? Might as well be with their attitude. For what it's worth, I'd like to see this particular dealer go obsolete after trying to raid my wallet. ....
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 | auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2010-09-13 173997
There is a remedy between bending over and Class Action. (The first thing a CA firm will ask is "How many of those models were sold and when?" -- and when you say three hundred they'll reply, "And where were these three hundred thousand sold?".)
Other postings indicate it's a common problem but it's not certain if it's normal or ominous. If you get an authority on tape saying it's the latter, you could get the work done, pay for it, and file a Small Claims Court action to recover the outlay. If the advice is to let it ride, document that, and see what happens. (If you file, the dealer will pass the claim to the manufacturer or distributor to handle.)
To explain about "splitting," the bell housing not only contains various clutch-related components, but holds the front and back halves together. The only way to access most of what's inside is to separate the two. It's a messy and heavy job for a first-time non-professional, and re-connecting can be tricky. But for relatively little extra you can get any worn clutch components replaced and end up with an essentially new tractor. ....
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| bigrock
Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4 Westby WI
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2010-09-13 174002
My 7305 now has 2200 hrs on it now. This summer I had to split it again and put an new charge pump in for the hydro. The woodruff key sheared off and the pump impeller broke. I inspected the over running clutch through the hyd oil fill hole to see if I should change the over running clutch too as the pump is further forward and I would have to split in two places. It looked OK for now. I do use this tractor very hard. The pump was $625. with all the other parts I needed and hyd oil it came to over $800 to do the job myself. I had the notion to pull the rock shaft cover to see if you could service the clutch from there. It is right in front of it. Anybody had the rock shaft cover off? The service manual is very vague as far as servicing this part. The engine clutch is much further forward so servicing that at the same time means splitting the bell housing from the engine. I guess if you have it apart that far and want to service the clutch, it would make sense. The clutch is only used for engaging the 540 and 2000 rpm pto so I think it should last a long time. The over running clutch is a weak part of this tractor. Any pto implement that transmits a lot of shock to the drive system will take it out. Yanmar makes Cub Cadet now. Mitsubishi made the ones we are talking about. Anybody know how the Yanmars are holding up? Good luck!
bigrock ....
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| mj4ster
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 5 NY
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2010-09-14 174011
Hi.
I've had my 7205 for 11 years now - bought it new. I beat the heck out of it, cut the grass with it weekly, and have dug many, many, many holes with the bucket and have moved tons of material. I've zero issues with the charge pump or the over-running clutch. There seems to be several interpretations of the function of this clutch on here - all I do is refer people back to my original post. I really can't believe that Mitsubishi would purposely design a self destrucing clutch. If you check with ANY Cub Cadet dealer, they'll tell you that the older Mitsu tractors were much more superior than anything produced after about 2004. That's why most of them also sell Mahindra tractors - they hold up better than the new Yanmar Cubs. ....
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| joegoesfishg
Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 3 USA
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2010-09-14 174012
I too felt my tractor was solid. For years I used it with attachments that really didn't put a shock or strain on the PTO as a tiller, or direct drice post hole digger or similar would when encountering obstructions. Within 1 hour of using a tiller & encountering some rocks, my override clutch was destroyed. This happened with a properly adjusted slip clutch. The point is that the weakness of the PTO overide comes to the surface when is subjected to harsh loads. I say this so people will take caution. Going forward I'll keep the slip clutch very, very loose. ....
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| KonaCoffee
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 12 Captain Cook, Hawaii
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2010-09-14 174014
Aloha!
It's neat to see this thread pop back to life - just goes to show how valuable the Internet is for sharing experiences.
I'm the original poster from way back in 2004 - Yikes! Since my original posting my CC 7205 has continued to meet my expectation. It has 1100 hours on it now, averaging a bit over 100 hours per year, 95% of which are turning a four-foot flail mower to cut 3 to 6 foot tall guinea (cane) grass in our coffee orchard. This is a fairly low-impact use, except when I hit a large rock (infrequently) or bog the engine through some really thick and heavy grass/mulch.
I continue to observe the "clicking" sounds when depressing the clutch while the rear PTO (I don't have a mid-PTO) is engaged. I've noticed no change in this behavior since I first observed it back in 2004.
One question that does come to mind is whether there is a recommended or preferred procedure for disengaging a loaded PTO? My current process is to reduce the engine RPM a bit to around 2000 while quickly depressing the clutch and immediately disengaging the PTO lever followed by engaging the clutch - I do all of this as close to instantaneously as possible.
Anyway, good to hear from everyone!
Aloha!
Jonathan ....
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| frankielee
Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 7 minnesota
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2010-09-14 174015
Hi Jonathan, yes how time flies....
I would highly recommend that you throttle all of the way down before pushing in on the clutch when your PTO is engaged. The mechanic that split my tractor has worked on Masseys, IH's, you name it, it's all he's been doing for forty years. He had an awful lot to say regarding the weak design of the PTO on the 7305. Two parts that just loosely engage each other....that clicking sound is these two parts basically rounding each other off. The failure of this design is not if, but when.
Good luck with your coffee. I'll soon start envying you when old man winter starts blowing wind chills into the negative 50's or worse here in MN. I'm guessing you didn't need the optional block heater that I couldn't operate without.
Take care,
Frankielee ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-09-14 174016
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Quote:
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One question that does come to mind is whether there is a recommended or preferred procedure for disengaging a loaded PTO?[/QUOTE]
Jonathan,
First off, I think you'll find the clicking sound is a ratcheting dog mechanism clicking past the teeth it engages with in the PTO. They are generically called an "over-running" PTO, the implement can turn faster than the PTO shaft, but not slower because the teeth catch on the mating dog and lock them solid.
The ratchet mechanism prevents whatever the PTO is connected to from driving the tractor instead of the other way around.
I'm willing to bet if you engaged the PTO with the engine off and turned the output shaft by hand, you'd find it clicks in one direction, and is locked the other way.
As for the disconnect question, unless you are doing it a lot (like hundreds of times a day, every day) it really doesn't matter, step on the clutch, shift, what ever turns your crank. If you were on & off it a lot, then slowing down the RPM first would mean slightly less wear on the throw-out bearing, etc., but for normal use, it shouldn't matter.
Best of luck. ....
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| mj4ster
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 5 NY
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2010-09-15 174044
Murf,
I gave a similar reponse about four years ago. I think you and I are the only two on here that agree as how the over-running clutch works. I spin a 60" deck through 1.5 acres weekly - plenty of load on the PTO. My wife actually stalled the tractor a couple times in real high grass. ....
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 | earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-09-15 174046
Mj are you implying there's a correlation by the (clicking?) overrunning clutch and stalling the tractor?
An example of the overunning clutch would be using a rotary cutter and shutting off the engine while the PTO is engaged--then you would hear clicking.
On my blue hydrostat however, I don't (necessarily) need an overunning clutch. I can put the range lever in neutral and the engine and PTO are still connected. If I want to stop the engine the PTO implement will stop too. I can also clutch the PTO in gear---but when I do it loses power as does the drive system. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-09-15 174050
The add on over running clutches were a necessary item on the Case 1070 series farm tractors. I at one time had two 1070's and put the OR clutches on both of them. They fitted over the regular PTO shaft on the tractor with a regular 540 PTO spline at the end of the OR clutch. They did extend the PTO shaft back about 8 inches maybe, but were quite necessary on that series tractor. For some reason the folks at Case designed the PTO brake to stop hard and NOW. It was common to hear of someone tearing up a PTO shft or at best cutting a shear pin when shuting the PTO off with a good sized rotary cutter at full RPM. The over running clutch solved that problem. Droping the engine RPM's to idle before stoping the PTO helped bur wasn't a total answer. I don't remember what they cost but I'm sure I bought them at TSC.
Frank. ....
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| mj4ster
Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 5 NY
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2010-09-17 174088
No, not at all. I'm saying the PTO was rubust enough to withstand the torque from the deck bogging down in very high, wet grass which resulted in a stalled diesel engine.
It doesn't make the noise if you disengage the PTO - only when everything's up to speed, and you depress the clutch with the PTO engaged....and then only until the deck comes to a stop. Simply remedied by disengaging the PTO and depressing the clutch simultaneously. ....
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