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Hydraulic Noise

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Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 179 Justus, Pa.
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2003-12-08          70572


I had a 7308 FEL put on my (2002) TC33D about a month ago.
I took it off the tractor the other day as at the present time I can't get my tractor w/loader and back blade in a shed that I have. I wanted to use the back blade for snow removal. At any rate, here's the problem. Now that I took the FEL off the tractor, the hydraulic system seems to whine loudly for about half an hour or so whenever I raise the 3PH. It only does it while I'm raising the backblade. It didn't do that before I had the FEL installed; at least nothing like it's doing it now. The hydraulics work fine; I'm just a little concerned that I'm somehow abusing the hydraulics. The fluid level is fine and I even plug in the block heater for a few hours before starting it up to facilitate warming things up. The temps around here in NE Pennsylvania have been in the teens and twenties which really isn't too bad yet. Do I have a (potential)problem here or should I just buy a Walkman?

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-12-08          70573


There are others that know more about the 7308 than I do, but some NH attachments are plumbed so that you must route a return line back to an unused port on the hydraulic pump. If you don't do this, the high pressure bypass may be making noise.

I have not checked the plumbing on my loader, but what I have described can happen when I remove my NH backhoe. ....

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Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 179 Justus, Pa.
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2003-12-08          70576


My New Holland dealer is the one that installed the loader so I'm hoping they knew what they were doing.
Before I had the loader installed the hydraulics would make noise in the cold weather when raising the 3ph shortly after starting but things would warm up quickly and the noise would vanish. Now it seems to take a very long time. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-12-08          70579


This may not be related to the FEL at all. It could be related simply to the colder conditions. There is a little valve that controls the speed of the 3PH. On my TC45, it is under the seat. If that valve is closed down it will slow the lift of the 3PH and could cause high pressures and hydraulic bypass. I expect that the hydraulic noise when the relief valve bypasses could be making this noise.

If I remember correctly, it has turtle (slow) and rabbit (fast) markings. Move it toward the faster side and see if that helps. ....

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Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 179 Justus, Pa.
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2003-12-08          70588


Thanks AC5ZO. Yes, the control valve is located under the seat and I do remember turning it to a slower position in the past so you may be correct. I'll have to check it out tomorrow but I think you you have something there. Thanks again. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-09          70618


Hydraulics do make a characteristic sound especially when they're cold. I don't know if you've operated the tractor in similar temperatures before but 'cold' may be the answer. If so, it's likely no problem but switching to an all weather hydraulic oil would help.

You may have operated the tractor during similar temperatures and the sound is worse since the loader was removed. I don't know if the loader valve was taken off along with the loader but here's a possibility of what's going on. If the valve was removed, then the oil flows through fewer orifices etc., which would make it run cooler and take longer to warm up. That idea could be tested by warming up the system and then working it hard--either with traction or repeated heavy 3ph lifting to see if the whine goes away faster. If the loader were on, the bucket could be curled back and held to force the relief valve to open. ....

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Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 179 Justus, Pa.
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2003-12-10          70770


AC5ZO and TomG, I tried the valve under the seat yesterday thinking that, for sure, that would remedy the noise problem. It didn't. Now today was warmer and I tried the backblade again and it wasn't as bad. Thinking along the lines of what you mentioned about the all weather fluid Tom, I checked the manual on it's recommended hydraulic fluid. I believe it recommended NH 134 fluid for normal use or F200 as an "all Weather" type fluid. I decided to ask my dealer about it and a mechanic there said that the TC29's and the TC33's, after having FEL's put on, were subject to this whining in the hydraulics. The class III's were OK, it was just the class II's that had the noise. He didn't know the reason. He suggested a lighter fluid but said that he would first check with NH service to see what they would recommend for the problem. One thing I should mention...When I raise my back blade by pulling the lever all the way back, it will make that whining noise for several seconds unless I let off the control lever just a tad. Once I back off on the control lever a bit, the whining will stop. Now yesterday, when it was cold, it still whined. I have to emphasize, it was a lot warmer today. I'll see what the mechanic has to say tomorrow. That WALKMAN with the CD player is looking more inviting all the time. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-11          70793


Sounds like the mechanic is aware of the problem and the system is normal except for the noise. If lighter oil is a solution, I think some synthetics (if recommended) have better cold weather characteristics than F200.

I guess you've been around the tractor enough to know that many power steering systems make a whine, as do relief valves. When the loader was on you probably heard the relief sound when the bucket was rolled completely back. There's the possibility of a malfunction if that's the sound. 3ph's also have a relief valve but it's usually set for higher pressure than the system relief. A weak one is possible and I don't know if the blade is heavy for the 3ph. That would be rare on a new machine and there would be a loss of power. The whine when you're holding the quadrant lever back likely is that the hitch is still in lift mode. Most have an adjustment that controls when the position takes them out of lift but it's not a problem unless it won't go out of lift when the hitch is full height. Most flow control valves only adjust the rate of lowering and don't affect the lift. ....

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Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 179 Justus, Pa.
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2003-12-12          70944


Tom, the noise is a bit different from when the bucket is rolled back all the way.
I spoke to the mechanic at my dealer yesterday and he told me that NH suggested I remove the hydro filter and take the base apart. They said there is a spring in there that may not have enough tension on it and to expand the spring if there didn't seem to be any tension. I removed the filter expecting that perhaps I'd be able to feel a spring somewhere up inside but it became obvious that there would be a lot involved in removing the base for the filter. I quickly decided to put that step on hold for now. One thing I did notice was small bubbles, just like champagne after it's poured, rising to the top of the filter that I had removed. I replaced the filter and the noise, for the most part, was eliminated. I know what you're thinking and yes, I did try the backblade before I removed the filter and there was some whining but it's been in the 40's here so it wasn't bad. I'm wondering if air is in the system or if the champagne like bubbles are normal. The mechanic did say yesterday that if it's air in the system the tractor would have to be brought back to the dealer. Why would it be so difficult to bleed the system? Another question I have is if I wanted to replace the fluid with synthetic, which by my calculations would cost me about $100 minimum, how do I ensure that I have removed all of the old fluid from everything including the FEL? ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 928 Rio Rancho, NM 87144
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2003-12-12          70962


Replacing regular fluid with synthetic. You cannot easily get all of the old NH 134 fluid out. It is the same fluid in the transmission as well, so you will have residual on the gears and in any cavities in the housing. On the FEL, you can remove the hoses and cycle the cylinder manually to pump out the old fluid. Or, you can just figure that there is going to be some mixed in and leave it there. Personally, I like synthetic engine oil, but I don't think that I would arbitrarily switch to synthetic hydraulic fluid unless the noise is a severe problem.

re: air in the system. The system should be largely self bleeding. Air separates out when fluid is returned to the supply reservoir. I think that the problem that the dealer might want to see could be with an air leak into the system where there should not be one. That would have to be on the intake side of the hydraulic pump. If it was sucking air there somehow, you could never bleed it out, because it would constantly be renewed. (causing foaming) ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-13          71058


Well, here's some pure speculation, which of course isn't connected to the real world and could be nonsense.

Appreciable air in the suction line isn't normal and suction line leaks are good ways for it go get there. Suction lines have various o-rings, seals and some have sections of rubber hose with hose clamps. Although the temperatures talked about aren't that cold, suction pressure with cold oil would be greater than when the oil is thinner after it warms. Perhaps some seal isn't very positive and air is introduced into the suction line when the oil is cold but not after is warms.

If that is what's going on the question if it's normal or is a seal defective. You might check suction line fittings and clamps for tightness as well as the filter. In this context, I wonder what the spring in the base does? I also wonder if the bubbles disappear after the oil warms. If it's normal and the explanation is right, a lighter oil would help but maybe doing nothing except avoiding hydraulic work until it warms would do the trick. In general, running a pump with frothy oil doesn't do it any good but it probably makes little difference unless it's working at higher pressure and also gets hot. ....

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Cottageboy50
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 2 Clarkston Michigan
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2019-02-18          198198


I have a TC29 and the Hydraulics SCREAM in cold weather. Today I was plowing snow and a tube flared fitting failed on me. I need to replace the hydraulic tube now. I think its because the fluid is too thick. The outdoor temp was 17F. I see all kinds of heavy equipment sitting out in the cold and they use it to plow parking lots etc. So why is my hydraulic system doing this? The fluid that leaked onto the drive way started to turn to gel in about 30 secounds. You just can not suck this thick fluid through the filter and it starves the pump causing the winning. This is my opinion anyway. This fluid is supposed to be rated for -13F. I call BS!
If you change the filter yes it will fix it. However, it will come back. If the weather gets to 40 there is no whinning at all.
I'm going to buy a few different quarts of this hydraulic fluid and let them sit out over night. then pour them in the morning and compare which brand is the most fluid. I'm really tired of this whinning and I do think I'm damaging the hydraulics. The pressure is to high for the system when the fluid is a gel. That's why my line failed today.

I look forward to any comments anyone has on this.

Thank you all for your feedback. Happy plowing!
Cottageboy50 ....

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arcwelder
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 106 Florida
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2019-03-12          198235


With the loader off on my tractors, I have to connect the quick disconnects on the tractor side together. It may be that with the loader off, it is going through the relief valve instead of the hoses. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7140 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2019-03-13          198240


A couple of pointers here.

First, the scream could be cavitation, but it's more likely the relief valve. Either way the simple solution is a small magnetic block heater. I'm not recommending any particular brand, but there's a link below to what I'm talking about. You just stick it to the hydraulic sump. We use these on all our winter maintenance machines (see my picture # 6) and the difference is night & day.

Secondly, unless you have a seriously defective relief valve you are not going to burst a steel tube from over-pressurization. The flex lines and crimp connectors would fail long before the steel line.



Best of luck. ....


Link:   Magnetic Block Heater

 
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