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Re Diesel help

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johnnydee
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7 AYTON.ONT
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2003-04-13          53074


My TC29d just came up on 50 hours and was running like a top
I asked my local fueller to drop off a 45 gal drum of diesel
I had 1/2 tank so I topped off from the drum !
30 minutes later the engine started to choke and died
It now won't start ?
The fuel smells like diesel !
Any ideas ?
Thanks
John H

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Re Diesel help

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Jeff Earthwerks Unli
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2003-04-13          53078


Just before the engine died did the RPMs rise slightly--like some one shot ether into it or gave it more throttle?
If it did, it is likely the fuel filter is plugged--even after 50 hours. It's anybody's guess what may have been in that drum. Not only that, but the fuel that came from the dealer and subsequent refuelings may have contributed to it too. My 33D took a dump after running 20 hours new. It would run fine but wouldn't restart--turned out to be a 10 amp fuse. The filter on my '99 Dodge Ram diesel was plugged to the point it wouldn't run either.

Here's another thoght and there are other postings about this too: check the fule tank cap on the machine. I have head that if the vent hole(s) are plugged it won't allow atompheric pressure into the tank and causes a vacuum. Try removing the cap and then starting it. ....

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Re Diesel help

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johnnydee
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7 AYTON.ONT
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2003-04-13          53084


Thanks Jeff
The engine ran fine then started to choke a couple of puffs of smoke and died !
I would think that a plugged filter would cause a steady decrease in power compensated by increase throttle.

John ....

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Re Diesel help

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1545 Moravia, NY
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2003-04-14          53096


The problem with buying a small quanity of fuel from a truck delivery is: Usually they can carry 2 or more different products. If the truck had just finished a kerosene order guess what was in the hose. That said a 50/50 blend of kero and diesel will work unless you are really working the tractor, You'll burn a valve.

Of course the dealer may have already cut the fuel etc.

All this said not knoing where you are located.

My tractor is a little heavy on the kerosene side at the moment. I may have to buy some at truck stop until I get heating tank down enough for a straight fuel oil refill.

Good Luck Harvey ....

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Re Diesel help

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-04-14          53108


There's always a risk of making a connection between observations that actually are unrelated. In this case I think I might start by draining the tank and refilling it with fuel from a high volume gas station and then replace the filter, check any internal tank screens and bleed the lines if they aren't self-bleeding.

During the winter I end up running close to 100% #1 diesel fuel. I think of #1 as equivalent to stove oil and essentially is less refined kerosene but I suppose real kerosene might be a bit lighter. It's true enough that #2 fuel this time of year is likely a winter blend that would contain #1 fuel. If that were the only difference I'd think it would start easier than a summer blend.

Harvey: I'm interested in your comment since I'm well over 50% #1 for most of the winter and early spring. My dealer did say that the engine can use either #1 or #2 but all engines may not be like that--or worse my dealer could be wrong. I do think that use of #1 is preferable to actual kerosene because it's cheaper (off road #1 is available here) and also because it provides better injector pump lubrication (I use an additive anyway). The fuel dealer keeps off-road #1 because it's speced for year around use in institutional diesel backup generators. Most camps use it for stoves since the tanks are outside and #1 won't gell--at least most winters around here.
....

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2003-04-14          53114


I hope we are not searching for a cause and effect when there is none. Have you checked the fuses?

I guess with the cold weather you had last week there may have been a problem if he had delivered the summer blend. More likely he has stirred up the dirt or water in the barrel. Do you have a filter on the barrel pump? You need an inline filter to prevent material from the barrel or delivered by the fuel salesman getting to the tractors tank. ....

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Jeff Earthwerks Unli
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2003-04-14          53135


Johnnydee: At least the diesels I have in my equipment (except the Dodge Cummins) when all have run out of fuel or are starved for fuel have had a noticable increase in engine RPM. Since diesels are very closely related combustion-wise to 2 stroke gas engines (and there are 2 stroke diesels too) when the mixture leans out they will run hotter and faster for a brief moment. ....

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Re Diesel help

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marklugo
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 281 Tifton, GA
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2003-04-15          53159


I'm wondering if your fuel might have gelled as well. Here in the south, this is the time of year that the fuel companies stop delivering "winterized fuel". A cold snap will frequently cause fuel to gel. Basically what happens is that the parafin in the diesel separates out and coats the filter surfaces to "plug" the filters. After things warm up, occasionally things will start and run, but it seems that once fuel gels, it won't completely un-gel. Changing and bleeding the entire fuel system is the best remedy. One other thought, this time of year with warm days and cool night or vice versa, depending on changes in weather, you get a lot of condensation particualrly in steel containers. If your drum was steel, it might have developed some water in the bottom. Even if it was a poly tank, it might still do it. Usually, the pumps suction is right on the bottom of the tank where all trash and water settles. Shortening the pickup tube to 4 inches off the bottom and install a Goldenrod fuel filter in the delivery system will save a lot of grief now and in the future. ....

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Re Diesel help

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1545 Moravia, NY
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2003-04-15          53177


Hi Tom I remember when we used to have a choice of #1 and #2 fuel and kerosene. Currently we have on road diesel gold color and off road red dyed (Canada does it too?).

Here's my experience and understanding. We do road construction and trucks are topped off on fall and parked. Last few years we started to haul asphalt out of Nanticoke, Ont in late Feb, this year last 3 weeks of Jan. Frist few trips we'd lose a few trucks to gelling of summer blend. Our storage tanks might have as much as 5-8 thousand gallons of summer blend in them. The storage tanks are hit hard with a refinery blended (at the loading racks) and additional kerosene is added to the mix to help over come the gelling plus anti gell addatives are added. The refinery, (usually nanticoke, Imperial) blend a winter mix diesel that comes in by the 8,000 gal trailer load, not died. To the best of my knowledge this has no kero in it unless we ask for some to be added. We have run as high a mix as 40% kero on road. Our off road diesel for our loaders etc is died and cut with kerosene.

Watching the pyrometer in the first few hot days with the wintermix and kero they run a lot hotter under load so usually a lower gear is required to keep the exaust temps below 900 degrees F. The reverse is true with summer blend and hard pulls on cold days you usually will not even get close to 900 degrees.

Any way my fuel tank is outside and it has gelled in the past. My distributor cuts my fuel (dyed heating/offroad fuel) with kero, depending on the temps. We had a couple of really cold months. I burn wood and oil is a back up and helps to heat this big dump. So I really only use 200-300 or so gallons of fuel a heating season and 60-80 gallons or so of that went into tractor this winter. I can smell the difference in the exaust. Plus I get a little more smoke from the kero mix.

Bottom line maybe we are only talking semantics here. Summer blend VS. Winter blend. #1 and #2.

Of course I see lots of Southern trucks up here and lots of Canada trucks headed south. SOOOOOOOOOOO...

Harvey ....

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Re Diesel help

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-04-16          53209


Thanks Harvey! I'll think through your comments about exhaust temps but I doubt I have worries about the valves. I avoid doing heavy draft work on hot days anyway because I don't want to change to summer oil for the few days around here when it's desirable. I'd just as soon fish on those days.

Around here we have road diesel at the service stations (sometimes called clear diesel) and I guess that dealers manage to get the right blend in their tanks. Off road diesel still comes in #1 & #2 and probably is the same as summer/winter or furnace/stove fuel. The dye seems to be either red or blue. To me, kerosene is the over-priced stuff sold in box stores to unsuspecting uses of portables burners. I think it's just low-sulfur stove oil so people with lamps can pay a bunch to not stink up their places. Sulfur does provide injector pump lubrication, but so do the additives I use.

From earlier discussions I recall that typical #1 fuel has a cloud point of -25F and it was colder than that here a lot last winter. Cloud point is where paraffin particles start forming in the fuel and they can eventually clog a filter before it actually gels. I don't know at what temperature below cloud point problems can start, but running close to straight #1 plus additive with anti-gel last winter may have been a good thing. #1 does start easier than #2 but the lower power it gives is noticeable. There's a good chance that the lower btu's in #1 equals higher throttle in operation and that's what produces higher engine temps on hot days.
....

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1545 Moravia, NY
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2003-04-17          53272


Tom I think you have it pretty well nailed. I have never heard of two types of off road fuel here. "I BELIEVE" the red dyed is the same heating/offroad, I gonna bug them one day about it just to see. I know for certian I've never seen the Blue dye.

The kero trick is simply a way to use what you have for summer fuel in the winter. We can fill our home storage tanks on special fills around aug/sept for around $.95 a gal. I have a lock in price with dealer for $1.13 this year and they only charge me that, cause they are nice, with the kero blend also.

I do recall oil dealers here recommending across the board/brands to fill out side tanks with kero in the winter so I do suspect there is no difference in the red dye.

I would say the only way you might get tractor to those kinds of temps is good traction pulling a plow at full throttle and the rpm stays near the torque line of about 2/3 of your pto rated rpm. Brush hogging might do it but that is later in the year. ....

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johnnydee
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 7 AYTON.ONT
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2003-04-17          53283


Well I called the fuel dealer and he came over checked the fuel and said there's no water in it and it tested fine !
The NH dealer picked it up and I said you might as well put a block heater in it do a 50 hour service fix a hydraulic leak install hydraulic remotes and sell me a bush hog !
Wow I'm hoping he'll not charge me a float fee after all that!
Anyway the mechanic said it's full of water!
So now the question is how did it get full of water?
I believe that the water entered the drum from the top through the hand pump !
Perhaps it wasn't put on tight enough !
So can I expest any compensation from the fuel dealer ?
Thanks to everyone for your advice?
John ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-04-18          53340


You can get a big glug of water along with fuel from fuel dealers who have low volume sales and not the best storage practices. The water comes from condensation inside the tank. If that's the source the dealer would be responsible, but the solution is to just drain the water from the drum before using it further.

The best storage methods for fuel drums is on their sides but tilted towards the outlet end. That way, any water from can be drained from the tank periodically and it doesn't build up. An upright drum with a pump feed line on the bottom does much the same but if it's at a slight angle a big glug of water could build up and wouldn't be picked up by the pump. If the tank shifted position slightly then the water might be picked up and quite a bit could end up in a tractor's tank.

For upright drums where the fuel is going to be stored awhile, having pickup line that doesn't go all the way to the bottom might be better. It can be tilted on its side when it's nearly empty to drain the water and salvage any remaining fuel. One thing to avoid is having an upright that is repeatedly filled from new fuel deliveries and never drained. Eventually such a tank will deliver water instead of fuel. I wouldn't have an upright tank with a pump mounted that is exposed to rain. There'd always be the possibility of loose fittings, and then condensation wouldn't be the only problem.
....

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