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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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robertpberg
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9 ohio
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2010-07-09          172207


i have a woods 1050 backhoe, the problem i have is when i pull handle to raise or lower boom , the boom creeps down until valve is all the way activated. any help would be greatly appreciated i have some knowledge in hydraulics.
thanks in advanced,
Buckeye Bob

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2010-07-10          172215


Robert, I assume the "lever" is the boom up/down control, and I don't exactly get what happens when the boom sinks. But hydraulic seals do fail in time, usually requiring troubleshooting to locate where, and bringing that part to a hydraulics shop for a new seal. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-07-10          172216


Bob;
Welcome to the form, we try our best to help if we can, and sometime you likely can help one of us too.
I'm not familliar with your backhoe valve but have used other brand hoes. So far I haven't had to get into a valve, but I'd guess they all are pretty similar inside.
Perhaps a bit more description on the way ot acts would help. If I get it correctly when you move the control lever you have no function between creep and full speed? Is there some linkage between the lever and the valve spool that may have enough wear or an obstruction like a dirt buildup making the spool hard to move?
From there getting into the valve itself is something I haven't had to do yet on a backhoe, but I've had other valves apart. I'm sured there are "O" rings, springs, balls, etc. etc. that will jump out all over the place when it comes apart, so I hope you don't have to get into that.
Frank. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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robertpberg
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9 ohio
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2010-07-10          172220


Okay i will try to describe my problem in more detail. when i try to feather boom up, the boom falls until i open valve all the way. In other words when I move boom control in the upwards position, just part way not fully up, the boom falls or creeps down until valve is fully activated. i hope this helps, if anyone needs more detail i will be watching the board.
thanks in advance
Buckeye Bob ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-07-10          172223


Bob;
Ok, I'll make a couple assumptions here.
First - With the boom lever in neutral position the boom does not creep down? If so that rules out a cylinder problem and also rules out a sealing proiblem in the valve when in neutral position.
Second - Did this situaton happen all of a sudden or start a while ago then got worse as time went along?
If it hapened all of a sudden then I would suspect a broken "O" ring or a broken ball retaining spring if your valve uses them.
If this was a long time happening, then an "O" ring or rings loosing the ability to seal from wear or a valve seat or seats that need replacing.
OK, now I don't want to pretend to be an expert on backhoe valves. I have worked on remeote valves on farm tractors and have a pretty good understanding of them but a backhoe valve is designed to control the flow in a different way than a tactor remote valve, so I won't speculate much further.
Frank. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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robertpberg
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9 ohio
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2010-07-10          172224


Frank or any hydraulic wizard out there. Maybe this will help, I have a link to the woods backhoe control valve assembly
http://www.messicks.com/Woods/7.aspx
There are shock/ dampening valves, check valve assemblies and a myriad of other hydraulic gizmos that I know very little about. This schematic should help those of you with a hydraulic background. To answer your question Frank, the boom does not drift down when the control handle is in neutral. I don't remember if this problem happened all of a sudden or over time. Thanks for everything,
Buckeye Bob

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Link:   

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-07-10          172225


Sounds like a check valve for each up and down circuit may be opening or not closing fully. Or the spool is worn and fluid is leaking back through the down circuit. Try switching the up/down circuits at the valves or if easier at the cylinder and see if the situation changes. Report back. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7141 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-07-12          172247


Sounds to me like you've either got an 'open circuit' machine and 'closed circuit' hydraulics (or vice versa) problem, or you've got a 'power beyond' port going to the wrong place.

What you describe is often what happens when you get the plumbing a little scrambled.

It sounds like the flow is dumping to reservoir as is the return line, but before the pressure goes to the lifting side.


Best of luck. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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robertpberg
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9 ohio
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2010-07-12          172249


earthworks,if i flip hoses at the control valve and lets say the same problem exist,what does that tell you? this sounds like a good way to isolate the problem! thanks ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-07-12          172250


I'm leaning toward what Murf said if nothing changes. If it does change then check the check valve cartridge(s) or switch them around. The machine will need to have a load or have gravity or pressure to duplicate since a cylinder that was used to pushing will now have to pull ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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robertpberg
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9 ohio
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2010-07-12          172251


Murf,i don't know if backhoe is open or closed center system. it has it's own onboard gear pump. i have not tinkered with hydraulic system since i bought it new.if you want to look at the pump and control valve assembly, i have posted a link about 3 or 4 messages back. if you get a chance take a look. thank you for your imput. buckeye bob ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-07-12          172252


All tractors have an on board hydraulic pump. Do you mean it has it's own PTO-powered pump SEPARATE from the tractor's sytem.

I don't know that that would make a big difference or not. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-07-12          172254


EW; Well yes, the Woods hoe having it's own PTO powered pump would take the open/closed center issue out of the problem. I "Think" the aftermarket backhoes I'm familliar with, which isn't a lot of brands use an open center system.
A power beyond circut on a Deere compact provides continus flow which would mean an open center hoe system???????
Seveal years ago a friend put a Kelly, I "think", three point hoe on a 4430 Deere with a closed system and my memory tells me he had to get a PTO pump for the hoe. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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robertpberg
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9 ohio
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2010-07-12          172256


my backhoe has it's own pto driven gear pump.does anyone know if the shock/dampening valve would contribute to my existing problem? there is a check valve on this schematic but i can't figure out where it's located on the valve assembly. i will post the link below for my woods backhoe. thanks to all of you!
....


Link:   messicks

 
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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-07-12          172257


Bob;
I did get the link from Messics to come up this time, and found the valve assembly page. Yes a lot more parts than I been used to with a common SCV valve on a farm tractor.
OK, now the "Shock Dampening Valve" you mention on the schenatic, I don't know if that could be your problem. I've not dealt with shock dampening valves in serviceing a common tractor valve unless it was called something else and I didn't realize it.
Strictly from my pint sized knowledge of hydraulics a "Shock Dampening Valve" would be in a hoe system to protect it from real sloppy clumbsy operators like me who jerk and yank way more than a seasoned operator does.
Again, please correct me if I'm speculating way too much here but likely a shock dampening valve would be modulated to have it open and close a tiny bit slower than a common pressure relief valve. My Wall Mart quality brain says that if it were not modulated it would only cause the shock to be worse??? ....

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____________________________________________________________________________________
problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7141 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-07-12          172258


Bob, now we're talking about a different beast.

I would need to see a "Hydraulic flow diagram" for the unit to tell you much, the parts drawings don't help at all, it doesn't even tell me what kind of valve it is let alone how it's all plumbed together.

Basically it sounds like it's down to 2 possibilities in my mind though, 1) it's plumbed wrong, if it's 'factory' plumbing that's not too likely though, or 2) you have a bad 'O' ring in the valve.

If it's been acting this way since new, either one could be the culprit, if it's just come recently, it's likely the 'O' ring.

The shock/dampening valve wouldn't have anything to do with it though, it's really only a safety valve. In your system there is no relief valve in the circuits once they're closed. So to prevent something from bending/breaking/rupturing they have to put in a valve to take up shock loading. Unlike a relief valve which dumps back to the reservoir above a set PSI limit, it is basically just a dead-end pipe with a spring-loaded piston in the end. If the pressure gets above a certain point, the piston moves back some to take it up, then moves back to it's 'normal' position once the overload is gone. As an example, if you are driving around with the hoe in the air, and you hit a bump, the weight of the hoe will create a massive pressure spike for an instant. If not for the valve, and the pressure exceeded the limit of a hose, it could burst. Hyd. fluid everywhere and the hoe dragging on the ground, not fun!

Best of luck. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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robertpberg
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9 ohio
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2010-07-12          172260


Murf, to clarify, are you saying a failed O-ring in the spool valve? also,could a bad check valve cause my problem? thanks, bob ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7141 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-07-13          172274


Bob, I doubt a bad check valve could do much to cause your problem, after all, if the b/h is dropping the fluid is going somewhere and for that to happen it must have a path to the reservoir, if the spool valve is working it would stop it.

I think you'll find the spool valve is the culprit.

The fast way to diagnose it would be to lower the b/h and relieve all pressure by cycling all the valves repeatedly, then swap the two lines on the SCV for the boom circuit for two lines on say the dipper circuit. Fire the machine back up and cycle the circuits to purge any air and test it.

If the problem has moved from the boom to the dipper you know it's the boom circuit of the SCV that's the problem.

If it's not, then maybe the seals in the cylinder itself are bad, this can be tested on the machine too, but it's a little harder to do.

Best of luck. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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robertpberg
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 9 ohio
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2010-07-13          172280


Murf, thank you and all other contributors! i now have some ideas to get started on running this stubborn problem down. if it proves to be in the spool valve Murf, is removing the spool valve idiot proof? thanks in advance, buckeye bob P.S. anyone with more ideas please forward. ....

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problem with 1050 woods backhoe

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7141 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-07-14          172298


Bob, you know what they say about fool-proof right? As soon as somebody makes something fool-proof, someone else comes up with a better fool. ;)

All kidding aside, yes, swapping out a SCV is no more complicated (usually) that unhooking the hoses and unbolting it from it's mounts. Any good hydraulic shop will be able to test and repair it for you in pretty short order.

If your half handy you can do it yourself, it's neither tough nor complicated.

Best of luck. ....

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JD-855-in-WI
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 36 Wisconsin
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2010-08-05          172826


I had crazy problems with my Woods hoe dipper / bucket circuit. Turned out a nut down in the linkage had come loose and one of the little arms that operates the valves had moved out of position causing the bucket to roll slowly when drawing in the dipper. Couldn't see it with the covers on. Don't over look the simple stuff. ....

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mrbackhoe
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7 Northern Illinois
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2010-09-09          173895


This sounds like a "load check" problem. Backhoe valves usually have one load check per spool, so you can use two or more functions at once and not drop. I pulled up the 1050 manual on the link below. Page shows a little bitty picture of item 3 that says it's a check valve and takes 6 per backhoe. It goes in the back side of the valve, so you probably have to unbolt the valve from the backhoe. If you put the bucket and stabilizers down, you may be able to do that without taking everything apart. Just make sure to relieve pressure on everything. Unscrew the check on the boom section and look for a broken poppet, or cracked seat. I'm betting on the cracked seat, so the poppet can't close off the passage. Will probably take a new valve section to fix. ....


Link:   Backhoe Load Check

 
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