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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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8NBoom
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7 Saskatchewan, Canada
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2010-03-24          169480


I couldn't find a better place to ask this so I picked Tractor Implements.
I recently bought a 8N boomer and it has a mid pto. I have no use for it and no plans for a mower. I have a bucket so likely wont put a snow blower on the front either. I was thinking how I'd like more hydraulic power though and wondered if I could put a PTO pump on there so that my back pto is left free. Does anyone know if this can be done or has been done? Any pros/cons? I'm thinking if I could get enough volume I'd put a hydraulic snowblower on the bucket mounts since I already have one for bobcat.

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-03-24          169487


8NBoom;
I'm far from an expert on hydraulics but I have home built quite a few hydraulic drives for farm augers, etc. I have a 4310 Deere with the mid PTO and have a pump, universal shaft, the bracket pieces cut to hold the pump etc. My goal is to operate a side mount small rotary mower to trim road ditch banks with while keeping the tractor on the level.
I got my pump from the Surplus Center, they have a website and catalogs, plus some very helpfull people to walk you thru what you're wanting to do. The catalog shows the pump displacement per revolution to help you get a rough flow rate by taking the displacement times the RPM. Some pumps work in one rotation directon only. Some will work either way, you need to know that too. You'll need a bypass relief valve somewhere on the pressure side of the pump and a resorvor for the fluid. By using the blower in the winter you may get by without a radiator to cool the fluid.
The guys that are better at this than me can tell you the hose and line sizes that have the least flow restriction, pressure loss and all the more technical stuff, I pretty much did this by what looked right then added 20% to everything and most always it worked out. Frank. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2010-03-25          169492


An 8N boomer? Never heard of such a thing. My New Holland is a Boomer though.

Why not get a PTO extension shaft and install another PTO pump of the size you need? That way you can run two pumps in tandem--not a good idea though because the first one needas to be lubricated while running. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
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2010-03-25          169494


Jeff, brain freeze on the 8N boomer? Have you not seen the retro? Not sure they have any on the local NH lot now but they are neat looking.

Frank, there are many many side mount hdy cutters built by a local company (Hardee, some Bush Hog's) designed for the 3 pth hitch with fully self contained hyd system driven off the rear pto that have NO hyd cooling built in other than the hyd tank not being enclosed. Those are mostly used by farmers for cutting ditch or pond banks and are mostly used in none farming time meaning fall and late winter. If they don't have a heat problem doubt you would either. At same time it amazes me how enclosed the hyd tank on an excavator is but guess all run a hyd radiator. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-03-25          169499


KT;
I wasn't aware that anyone built a side mount for compacts, the county uses them on full size tractore, but I never paid any attention to the brand. I really don't absolutely even need one but just wanted the challenge of building one myself. The plan was to use a light weight four ft. rotary cutter mounted more on the side rather than the three pt.
It's just another one of the dozen or so things that I have all the parts to build it but just haven't gotten around to it yet. By the time I get it built weeds may be a thing of the past by some genetic altering thing or sometning. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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8NBoom
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7 Saskatchewan, Canada
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2010-03-25          169500


Thanks guys. I am reading your responses so I thought I better let you know. I don't know what else this mid pto would be good for since I already have a 72" zero turn mower and the bucket on the front. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7154 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2010-03-25          169504


Before you go too far down that road you better check your machines PTO's out.

It's my understanding that regardless of what the PTO setting is put to, if the PTO is engaged, both shafts are turning.

If that's the case, then no matter what you used the rear PTO for, you would be running the hydraulic pump.

It sounds to me a much easier, and less spendy, solution to just hang a Prince PTO hydraulic pump from TSC, Princess Auto or wherever off the 3pth and be done with it. Especially since you won't be able to use the 3pth for anything else anyways, you will need it to carry the reservoir and such.

Best of luck. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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8NBoom
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7 Saskatchewan, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2010-03-25          169507


You might be right Murf. One downside to the mid pto is it shuts off every time you get off the seat. I'll probably just get a 3point blower but thought it would be cool to actually have a use for that mid pto. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-03-25          169509


Murf;
I don't know how the orange or blue works but on my green one the rear PTO can run without the mid one turning, but the rear one must turn to have the mid one going, so the mid pump can be at rest anytime regardless of the rear shaft use.
You want to take all the challenge out of things by buying an off the shelf thing, has your do it your self thing gone astray?
Another question, are all compact tractor mid PTO's the same size and speed??? ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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8NBoom
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7 Saskatchewan, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2010-03-25          169510


Hardwood, I can answer your question.
The Rear PTO on my tractor is 1-3/8" shaft 40HP 540 RPM
The Mid PTO on my tractor is 1" shaft 36HP 2000 RPM both at relatively same engine speed.


....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-03-25          169511


8NBOOM;
I'd have to go measure the mid shaft on the 4310, but I'm guessing it's a one inch also. I bought the PTO shaft from Deere that fits my pump shaft and the mid PTO of the tractor, and have had it for a couple years, so my size memory has faded since then.
The mid PTO control switch is on the frnder, pulling it up engages the mid shaft, but the rear one has to be running to make the mid one go. So it is independent of the rear shaft to a point. The PTO will run while off the seat if the park brake is locked, it has ran lots of grain augers with nobody on the seat. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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8NBoom
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7 Saskatchewan, Canada
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2010-03-25          169513


The manual for my tractor shows three options.
1) Mid PTO
2) Mid & Rear PTO
3) Rear PTO
There's a lever on the left side of the seat to chose this.
You can get off seat and leave Rear PTO going but not the Mid PTO. If you get off the seat the tractor shuts off. I'm not saying every tractor is like that though.

Have you used your pump yet hardwood? I'm curious if 2000 RPM is way too fast for them as most pto's only run 1000 max. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2010-03-26          169531


8NBOOM;
I know my mid PTO will run with nobody on the seat because I let the tractor idle once with the PTO on to determine which direction it turned.
There are lots of places to get pumps, valves, etc. but my favorite is the Surplus Center because they will list the direction of rotation, max speed, max pressure, displacement per revolution,, etc for each pump.
No I haven't got the system mounted on the tractor yet, I've made the brackets etc, but just another of my someday jobs. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 7154 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2010-03-26          169535


The problem with mounting a pump on the mid-PTO isn't logistics or even cost so much as it is the PITA factor.

Unless you mount the pump out in front of the tractor it will significantly reduce clearance under the tractor. If you do mount it out front it is open to lots of potential problems with damage, etc., plus the reduced clearance to the FEL and the problems of mounting the shaft such that it clears the pivoting front axle, etc. on top of the need for an external reservoir which could only be located at the other end of the tractor, and would need to be removable in order to use the 3PTH.

All in all, unless you are building a dedicated machine for some specialized task, I can't see using the mid-PTO to power a hydraulic source as a very viable solution.

Frank, bear in mind, not matter what system you go with, there's still lots of DIY required, and you still have lots of off the shelf parts.

Best of luck. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2010-03-26          169541


Murf;
Yes off the shelf parts., except the home fabricated mounting parts.
No need to take the pump off, so less PIA than a rear PTO mount. Shaft is about 12 inches long. Already have guards to protect the pump. Clearance won't be affected very much in the planned location.
The tractor sump is my reservor, I've did this before on other tractors, so not a new concept.
Don't want you and me to get like me and Jeff, he won't hardly respond to my comments anymore. Got a new welder, just want to justify it to the Mrs. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2010-03-26          169552


Sorry Frank. I just had to accept that you are right.

Then I woke up---it WAS a bad dream. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2010-03-26          169553


EW;

Glad to hear from you. No that was a good dream of me going past on my GEAR DRIVE Deere. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5223 South Carolina
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2010-03-27          169575


Hardwood, there is a company who makes side mount cutters for CUT or assume they still do. That is the issue that first brought me to TP. In those years my experience has been all over the board on this issue. If need be can post it but am still working on a mower that I think will work with my CUT that is totally self contained hyd system using rear pto pump to operate the cutter and control it. Found a small flail mower at good price (one company's bankruptcy is another's fortune)that I am able to run with my excavator's hyd and think will also work on my cutter design. For my nickel I like a flail mower more than a rotatry for such a cutter.

8nboomer...this site helped me very much with such thoughts as you are asking here. It provides a great sounding board. ....

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Mid PTO hydraulic pump 2000rpm question

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8NBoom
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 7 Saskatchewan, Canada
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2010-03-27          169577


Thanks guys. Yes, I enjoy boards like this, especially when they e-mail to tell you when there's a post.

I did some checking around and it appears there are no pumps made specifically for the mid pto but could be made. I don't know if I'll ever do anything as I'm more into buying things already to go. I do see under my tractor, there's a frame for the front end loader underneath that would hide and make mounting a hydraulic reservoir not too much of an issue and close to the MID Pto. so, I'll keep thinking about this. Have a good day! ....

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