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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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pjells
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4 Western Massachusetts
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2009-12-13          167465


I have a Jinma 224 with a FEL. The loader suddenly stopped working. The power steering works and the 3pt works. The bucket will lift if I move the steering wheel back and forth. The bucket is tipped all the way forward and moving the steering wheel does not help to tip it back. I am guessing it is a problem with the loader control but have not found anything obvious wrong with it. Is there a any way to diognose the control further before replacing it? Any help would be appreciated.

-Pete

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2009-12-13          167467


If it's like my New Holland, each system has it'own pump. Sounds like yours is shot. Have you run it out of fluid or had it low enough on a slope that it sucked air? ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2009-12-14          167472


Quote:
Originally Posted by pjells | view 167465
The bucket will lift if I move the steering wheel back and forth.
It's a vented system (self-bleeding) so air isn't ordinarily an issue. The vent doubles as fill plug and dipstick, it's behind the operator seat. I clean mine out with solvent and compressed air at least once a year, which is usually enough to keep it breathing.

There's only one pump. But there's also a priority valve that splits the steering sub-circuit off from the main loop. I believe your problem may be a partially obstructed priority valve. It's located on the right side of the engine, just forward of the brake pedals. That said, whatever dirtied up the priority valve may have partially obstructed the curl control (valve) as well. Once these valves are disassembled for inspection/cleaning, folks often find either strands of Teflon tape (that shouldn't have been used in the first place) and/or chunks of damaged O-ring.

//greg// ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3583 iowa
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2009-12-14          167474


I'd go along with the priority or diverter valve, both the same thing I think. I had a Case 1370 tractor once that was the opposite, the power brakes wouldn't work till you did something else hydraulic powered, turning sterring wheel a bit made them kick in. The brakes would still stop the tractor but they were non power assisted. Scarry at times. ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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pjells
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4 Western Massachusetts
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2009-12-14          167475


The Loader control inlet line comes directly from the pump, then the outlet goes to the steering diverter valve, so I am assuming that my problem must be in the loader control. I know that there is some sort of diverter valve in the loader control but I don't see anything wrong with it although I don't really understand how it works either. ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2009-12-14          167476


Quote:
Originally Posted by pjells | view 167475
I don't really understand how it works ...
That's why we're here to help. Don't discount the priority valve though. The fact something outside the steering sub-circuit can be made to work by turning the steering wheel - is a classic symptom of a problem in the priority valve. When there's no steering input, the PV is supposed to close - which routes all fluid around the main circuit (loop), which in your case runs the loader and rear hitch. But a malfunctioning PV can stick open - or partially open - unnecessarily feeding the steering circuit at the expense of the main circuit. Turning the steering wheel of a PV that's malfunctioning (dirty) in this manner has the effect of (temporarily) returning some flow back to the main loop.

When this happens - and your loader will lift but not curl - gives evidence that the curl valve is dirty too. Your loader and control valve types remain unknown, but typically there is no additional priority valve associated. More common is a controller that consists of (a) lift valve, (b) curl valve, and (c) relief valve. Two out of those three appear to be ok, but only when provided fluid by turning the steering wheel.

Make more sense now?

//greg// ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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affordable
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 93 Bellville,Texas
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2009-12-17          167545


On the backside of the loader valve are 2-caps with 2- screws in each one, remove the 2-screws and confirm that everything is tight underneath them, if it is I would look at the relief valve on your loader valve.

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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pjells
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4 Western Massachusetts
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2010-01-06          167920


FYI: To anyone reeading this who has the same problem. I isolated the problem to the loader valve. I did a little reasearch adn found the original valve was a P.O.S. anyway so I replaced it with a new style. I purchased it from ronald@ranchhandsupply.com. The FEL now works better than it ever did. It is faster and smoother. The price was a little hard to take but I didn't want to replace the old valve with another P.O.S valve and be in the same situation again.
Hope this helps,
-Pete ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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auerbach
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2168 West of Toronto
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2010-01-06          167923


P.O.S.
Product Of Shanghai. ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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scavengerr2
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3 United States littlerock,ca
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2011-06-23          179139


hi i have sort of the same problem. one of my main pump hoses broke and the pump got hot. i rebuilt the pump and everything works but the loader, her is the kicker, the bucket will work only when i turn the steering to the right or left and hold it tight and i can see the line from the pump get pressured up, the bucket will go up and holds the pressure but will tilt only on the way down. could this be the loader valve. thanks ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2011-06-23          179142


Some debris generated by the previous work has clogged up the priority valve. Some folks call it a diverter valve. It's what sucks hydraulic pressure out of the main loop to operate the power steering. If/when it gets fouled, symptoms such as you describe start to happen.

Locate/remove/disassemble/clean/reinstall the PV. It's just forward and slightly to the left of the brake pedals

//greg// ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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scavengerr2
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3 United States littlerock,ca
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2011-06-25          179164


hi when you changed to the FEL did the hoses still fit or did you need to change out the fitting thanks leroy ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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dnaraG_1M
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 17 central texas
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2011-07-11          179349


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_g | view 167476
That's why we're here to help. Don't discount the priority valve though. The fact something outside the steering sub-circuit can be made to work by turning the steering wheel - is a classic symptom of a problem in the priority valve. When there's no steering input, the PV is supposed to close - which routes all fluid around the main circuit (loop), which in your case runs the loader and rear hitch. But a malfunctioning PV can stick open - or partially open - unnecessarily feeding the steering circuit at the expense of the main circuit. Turning the steering wheel of a PV that's malfunctioning (dirty) in this manner has the effect of (temporarily) returning some flow back to the main loop. //greg//


Yesterday, while moving some fill dirt, *almost* the
same thing happened to my FEL (ZL-20]. I say ALMOST
because although I have steering and 3-pt function,
nothing will make the FEL work. The loader frame won't
move and the bucket won't curl either. Steering has no
effect on the FEL (non)function; the FEL doesn't even
_try_ to move. Usually the FEL hoses will shake a bit
with useage, but not now....No pressure???

Does this still sound like a PV problem? Or is it likely
a different suspect? Since both functions of the FEL are
gone, I assumed - dangerous, I know - that it is not
getting pressure. The pump is generating pressure clearly.
So something must be preventing it from getting to
the FEL?? It's not at all likely that BOTH spool
valves could die at the same instant, right?

Feeling clueless......
johnd
....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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richwaugh
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 96
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2011-07-11          179351


If your FEL is equipped with quick-disconnect hoses, you should check them out carefully. Those Chinese QDs have been known to fail, blocking flow through the coupling. I suggest you disconnect them and examine them closely to make sure the sealing ball/cone will function properly. Then connect the two hoses from the pump to each other and start the engine and see if you're getting flow through the hoses. After that, reconnect the FEL hoses and see if it works. Whatever you do, do not run the engine with the hoses disconnected from the FEL but not connected to each other - that will deadhead the pump and possibly ruin it. ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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dnaraG_1M
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 17 central texas
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2011-07-11          179354


>If your FEL is equipped with quick-disconnect hoses,
>you should check them out carefully.Those Chinese QDs
>have been known to fail, blocking flow through the
>coupling.I suggest you disconnect them and examine
>them closely to make sure the sealing ball/cone will
>function properly.
Sure thing. I'll check 'em in the AM.

>Then connect the two hoses from the pump to each other
>and start the engine and see if you're getting flow
>through the hoses.
Don't know how to do that?
I may be misled, but I thought that there had to be
flow thru those hoses to make the steering work.
The output of the pump seems to be only connected to
one of the hoses. If it was blocked, wouldn't that
kill the pump? And not allow steering?

>After that, reconnect the FEL hoses and see if it
> works.Whatever you do, do not run the engine with
>the hoses disconnected from the FEL but not connected
>to each other - that will deadhead the pump and
>possibly ruin it.
No, No! Bad thing.
I've been warned not to do that.

I'm still confused. Failure of both FEL functions
make me think "no flow" but the steering and 3pt
working make me think "flow is OK".
My brain hurts...............

cheers,
johnd
....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2011-07-11          179358


Quote:
Originally Posted by dnaraG_1M | view 179354
I thought that there had to be flow thru those hoses to make the steering work.
You are correct. And if both the steering and rear lift are working, the problem's not the PV either. Typical Jinma FEL flow goes around the PV, not through it.

Sounds to me like your loader controller is bypassing. Bypass is the normal condition when you are NOT using the lift or curl valves. But if something's got it stuck open, fluid is going straight through it full time regardless of input from the curl and lift valves. That's the first think I'd check anyway.

//greg// ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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dnaraG_1M
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 17 central texas
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2011-07-12          179363


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_g | view 179358
You are correct. And if both the steering and rear lift are working, the problem's not the PV either. Typical Jinma FEL flow goes around the PV, not through it. Sounds to me like your loader controller is bypassing. Bypass is the normal condition when you are NOT using the lift or curl valves. But if something's got it stuck open,fluid is going straight through it full time regardless of input from the curl and lift valves. That's the first think I'd check anyway.//greg//


Thank you for your help!

Yeah, that seems to match the symptoms I'm seeing.
I'll check the controller first. There are too many
stories of cr@p floating around in chinese tractors for
me to overlook that possibility......

One nagging question is bouncing around my brain. Is
there a single point failure in the FEL controller?
One place which would prevent flow into BOTH spool
valves, but allow flow to bypass? That would be the
most obvious place to look first. If there is no single
point failure, I have to assume both valves failed at
the same instant.......not likely I would think.....

Is there a way to backflush the controller before
disassembling it? Would save a lot of work...Maybe.

cheers,
johnd
....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2011-07-12          179364


I haven't had any loader failures John, so I can't be much more specific. If/when I do, the approach I'd take is simply "follow the flow" and try to determine where it stops. In the case of your loader controller, that's where the supply from the pump enters the body of the controller. I'd start by confirming that fluid is actually getting TO the controller. If yes, then I'd work my way in from there.

Don't have a clue about backflushing, although I have my doubts. One option is to just dismount the controller and carry it to a hydraulic shop. I say this because you have to have some kind of pump to generate flow. In my case, that would only be the one installed on the tractor. But that's dangerous, because - if you inadvertently block the flow yourself while troubleshooting - the tractor has enough power to damage/destroy the pump. You could hurt yourself too. Hydraulic shops should have standalone pumps to use specifically for troubleshooting flow issues.

//greg// ....

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dnaraG_1M
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 17 central texas
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2011-07-12          179365


Quote:
Originally Posted by greg_g | view 179364
If yes, then I'd work my way in from there. Don't have a clue about backflushing, although I have my doubts. One option is to just dismount the controller and carry it to a hydraulic shop. I say this because you have to have some kind of pump to generate flow. In my case, that would only be the one installed on the tractor. But that's dangerous, because - if you inadvertently block the flow yourself while troubleshooting - the tractor has enough power to damage/destroy the pump. You could hurt yourself too. Hydraulic shops should have standalone pumps to use specifically for troubleshooting flow issues.//greg//
[QUOTE=greg_g;179364] I haven't had any loader failures John, so I can't be much more specific. If/when I do, the approach I'd take is simply "follow the flow" and try to determine where it stops. In the case of your loader controller, that's where the supply from the pump enters the body of the controller. I'd start by confirming that fluid is actually getting TO the controller.//greg//

Yep. I assumed that the flow was there because steering
and 3pt work. But, this AM I did as suggested and bypassed
the FEL by removing the quick connects and routing
around the FEL. That worked. Steering and 3pt still work
as before - no change.
Unless the pump can "half work", putting out enough
pressure to operate steer and 3pt but not enough for
the FEL, this should prove flow is OK and pump is OK.

But it's always best to CHECK. As pilots say "In God
we trust, all else we check". To check what I had in
mind was:
1-Connect input Quick Connect to pump.
2-Disconnect output Quick connect and remove connector,
putting the open end of hose in a bucket.
3-Open the compression release.
4-Crank the engine, but don't let it start.

If the flow is there, I should get a squirt of fluid in
the bucket.........






Yeah, I have this suspicion that you are right about
the controller being the villian. So it's likely that
I'll end up in the hydraulic shop...........Or cough
up the money for a better controller.

The more I think about it, the less I think backflush
would cure anything. If the flow passes thru the
controller to work the steer and 3pt, then it's not being
blocked. Nothing to backflush...?..
It sounds to me like the MALF must be at a point common
to the two valves - preventing them from getting fluid,
but not preventing flow from input to output port of the
controller. Wish I knew how that dern thing works
internally........

cheers,
johnd

....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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greg_g
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1816 Western Kentucky
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2011-07-12          179366


So far your troubleshooting has cost you nothing but time. But a very common complaint about the Chinese loaders is their erratic movements - even on brand new machines. Most of which - if not all - can be traced to the OE controller. Some frustrated owners didn't even wait for their controllers to malfunction. They simply replaced them with aftermarket joystick controllers. Happy campers for ever thereafter. So depending upon how fancy you want to get, it might not be much more expensive to get a decent controller - than to invest any more in this one. After all, hydraulic shops don't work cheap.

Having said that, perhaps a hydraulic shop in your area might even have a used or rebuilt joystick controller that would work.

//greg// ....

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richwaugh
Join Date: Mar 2010
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2011-07-12          179367


JOhn,

I would suggest that you open up the pressure relief valve on the loader controls and clean it out. If that PRV sticks open you'll have complete bypass and no pressure to operate the loader. It does happen. Just watch carefully when you disassemble the PRV so0 you don't lose any parts or get them in the wrong order - a digital camera can be a lifesaver here. The valve has a spring in it, so take it apart slowly and carefully so it doesn't go "sproing!" and send parts flying all over. ....

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Jinma 224 Loader does not lift or tilt

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dnaraG_1M
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 17 central texas
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2011-07-12          179368


Quote:
Originally Posted by richwaugh | view 179367
JOhn,I would suggest that you open up the pressure relief valve on the loader controls and clean it out.If that PRV sticks open you'll have complete bypass and no pressure to operate the loader.It does happen.Just watch carefully when you disassemble the PRV so0 you don't lose any parts or get them in the wrong order - a digital camera can be a lifesaver here.The valve has a spring in it, so take it apart slowly and carefully so it doesn't go "sproing!" and send parts flying all over.


AHA!! A place where there could be a single point
failure if it got jammed with a piece of crud. Gosh,
Rich, if you keep this up, you might cure a small
part of my ignorance...........Maybe.

So I just tried to find my documents that might have
a parts "exploded view" of the controller and came up
empty. Does anyone have a web link to a page that shows
that? I am suspecting that the relief valve must be
under the round cap (on top) that seems to be made to
be removed with a Hex Key wrench....?...
Directly beneath (on the bottom) the round cap is a
pipe that is capped off. Probably related........

Thanks again for all the help,
johnD

PS That "sproing" sound is the 2nd worst sound I would
want to hear. The worst is "OOPS" from a Doctor
doing surgery on my bod!
....

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st1100man
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 2 Porterville, CA
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2016-04-11          194957


My Jinma 284, loader and bucket, stopped lifting today. I pulled the seat off,removed the micro fine wire mesh hydraulic screen filter, and replaced it. I had an extra. The old one was absolutely the dirtiest thing i've seen. Embarrasing.

Anyway, after that all was well. The loader and bucket worked flawlessly. ....

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