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Mississippi - state of mind

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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2006-08-03          132948


We had a couple of comments in another thread that concerning the MS state flag. Many of the statements in the post are misleading and others clearly incorrect. As I live on the AL MS border I thought a little history correction is in order.
MS had a referendum on the state flag in April 2001. The results were along the racial Mix in the state. For removal 36% against 64%.
The confederate flag changed in its short history. The battle flag was used for only 4 years and was not the confederate flag, but only the battle flag of the confederate. The original flag of MS was the blue bonnie, a star in a blue background adopted in 1810. In 1861 the blue bonnie was placed in the corner and the magnolia was added to a white background. This remained through the war and until 1894. We now have the current flag with the battle cross in the corner. Why was it changed?
The major corner stone of the 1860 election was the issue of slavery. When the Republicans won the seven highest slave holding states seceded. In these states the slave to free population was nearly one to one. In MS the ratio was about 1.25 slaves for each person and one half the families owned slaves. In the confederate south as a whole thirty one percent owned slaves. About forty six percent of the population in the confederate States were slaves.
In 1860 the per capita income of the whites in the southern states was double that of the northern none slave holding states. Basically you earned the wages of the slaves. The prospect of loosing half your wages was a strong motivator to go to war.

WW “For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery.”

Well with 46 percent of the population being a slave and one in three families owning one it seems unlikely that a southern soldier did not know what one was or believe they were not fighting to preserve their way of life, base on free labor.

WW “It shows the same type of disagreement to the Stars and Stripes as did the Stars and Stripes did to the Union Jack.”

What do you think happened to the people that flew the old red white and blue union flag after the revolution? About 10% of the people were forced to leave due to persecution and Lynchings.

WW “The Red and Gray is a Battle Flag, a flag that many thousands died defending. That is reason enough it should have respect.”

The Nazi German flag was also a flag that many died for a morally wrong cause. Is that reason enough to respect it? It is also used by racists is I guess this does not tarnish its function in your eyes either.

Ex 21:6 "Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.” The eighteenth and nineteenth century slavers bought and sold kidnapped people, these were not people who sold themselves into slavery.

Racism is alive and well in MS. My kids had a friend attacked with a shovel on the 4th of last month, in the middle of the day and at a festival. A 200+ 17 year old and his friend decided to try and take the head off my daughter’s friends 13 year old little brother (maybe 110 lb). He was just walking up the road with his sisters and my daughter. The boy is mulatto. Despite the a deep bruise on his back and a bunch of witnesses. The local sheriffs and police closed ranks and refused to do anything. I overhead the local police conspiring with the 17 year olds parents and said something. Naturally he offered to throw me in jail.

Basically many still believe they have the right to do what they please because of color of skin.

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Mississippi - state of mind

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DenisS
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 367 NJ
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2006-08-04          132951


I'm walking down the street in one of the "ever so diverse" towns in central Jersey when I see a thugmobile with two negroes parked in my church's parking lot. The thugs are blasting their rap while a white stripper is performing right infront of their car. and there ain't a thing I can do about it. Had that happened in the blessed state of Mississippi, the neighbors would have called the cops and you know what would happen to the scum. Maybe that's why this sh*t doesn't happen in the south.

food for thought... ....

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Mississippi - state of mind

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-08-04          132952


Peters I find your topic interesting in that you say racism is still alive (technically all humans are a race, so we really aren't pitting one race against another since there is only one Race and that the Human Race). We are talking "Ethnicity".

Anywho, as I mentioned I'm a Michigan yankee working on the MS Gulf cleaning up Katrina (yes, still).

Nearly every day I have to knock on doors looking for work. I have been discriminated against not for my color, but from where I was born (and I have german and french roots) by dyed-in-the-wool MS locals who have told me to my face, "you ain't frum heeah--you all haven't done NUTHIN' fo' me--an' I don't give ANY wouk to ANYONE that ain't frum heeah". I tell them I understand, and they calm down a bit and shake my hand, and I never hear from them again.

Now keep in mind, I'm white, male, and 43 years old---and travelled 3600 miles total getting my equipment down here to help out (and of course pay my bills---I'm not a non-profit organization but it feels that way sometimes LOL). What I think they're referring to is the Civil War. I've met numerous people from MS and Arkansas who are still living the War (well-to-do white males in their late 60's early 70's). We Yankees see it as History---get over it. You can't move forward if you can't get past your past.

That said, I have met many nice people down here, many of whom have opened their homes to me and allowed me to set up camp on their property (not always for free of course--we trade work for rent). This probably wouldn't happen in the north.

I really like it down heeah. Oddly, this place feels more like home than "home" does. ....

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Mississippi - state of mind

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2006-08-04          132953


As a Christian and a Southerner there are many things that are part of these issues.
1) Slavery is or never was right.
2) Slavery has been a part of this world in most if not all countires at one time or another.
3) It is an issue addressed in the Bible more than one place.
4) For the most part those who went to Africa and first PURCHASED the BLACK slaves were Northern ship owners. Why are they given a clear bill on slavery?
5) In many rural circles of the South the "Colored" and "White" got along very well and respected each other. This was very true when my father who passed away in 1970 was farming.
6) It will surprise many to realize the race wars were worst for the most parts in Northern Cities than the South.
7) Racism is most often not caused by color of skin or accent, rather attitude.
8) I am not 100% sure but think you will find there is more "Black on Black" violence than White on Black violence. Just like there is more abuse by people you know than strangers.
9) Were there not also "white" slaves within this country in the North?
10) As long as a person wants to blame some one else for their failures they will be able to find a party to blame. They will themself be the biggest failure.
11) As to the Stars and Bars...today it has been hijacked by worst than the Southern Slave owner.
12) No doubt the slave owners profitted by the work of the slave, sort of like any employer expects to profit by the work of any employee.
13) The slave owner also had financial risk to provide for the needs of the slave different than an employee, you could not just lay them off, yes you might be able to sell them.

Please, do not get the idea in the least I think slavery of any kind is proper. It is not and never was. Just don't pick on it in one location or one time in history and turn a blind eye to it even today in our country. Look around you today at the slaves in the country of the United States of America. You can make a slave of a person in more ways than with the gun and sword. Look as such drugs, the ACLU and those who tell you can not think for yourself for is it the fault of someone who live over a hundred years ago.

....

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Mississippi - state of mind

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kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005
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2006-08-04          132956


earthwrks,

No doubt you have come across the term of "Damned Yankee". It comes from the attitude of so many from the North who for years and those today that go to great pains to tell the South how stupid we are.

Funny how such a smart person was so dumb to get right in the middle of really stupid people.

It is easy for me to tell the difference between a DY and a Northerner. It is attitude.

As to the difference in attitude, you need to realize any war the attitude is always different where the bleeding and killing took place compared to the land who sent soliders. I am not discounting the loss of many in the North here. Not trying to justify anything.

But if you were to go to Germany or Japan and ask their thoughs on WW II it will be much stronger than in the US. I am afraid that is something we do not understand in Iraq. We (the USA) think we are giving so much and we are but to them it is survival. The same for the South as not only lost people, we had our country destroyed and then invaded by the know it all Northern politican.

Again, please don't take any of this as support for slavery or any other I hate you because of such as accent or your name. A Northerner (or just plain Yankee) built my house and my oldest daughter's house. A great guy who did a great job. My youngest this week is moving into a house built by a lying DY! There are all types in any region or family.

For the sake of the world I am thankful this county did not break apart. It takes this total country with all it has to offer to make a difference.

I do thank God for our great county from the great South to the great North from us on the East coast to those on the golden West.

I think there are no better words than those of my Lord Jesus Christ here, "let him without sin cast the first stone". Pitcher up?

But, I do thank God for being blessed to be born in the South!

....

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Mississippi - state of mind

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan
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2006-08-04          132966


KT: "Funny how such a smart person was so dumb to get right in the middle of really stupid people."

I'm at a loss as to what these means. Are you referring to me?

As far slavery in the north, the automotive industry is a good example, employees ARE seen as property. 'Nuf said.

And I have never heard of notherners buying and selling slaves. Unless you're talking about the East Coast, then yes like Boston.

Further, it well documented that it was in fact the friends and families of the "africans" that sold them originally. It wasn't as though an american ship pulled into port and then abdcucted them and took thm back to america to be sold. They were sold by their own people. ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2006-08-04          132978


Peters
An African American (screw that) A balck man broke into my White senior citizens house and clocked him in the head with a house brick (121 stitches), He knew the man was white and he knew the man was over 80 yrs old before he broke into the house ( we all saw him walk thru the alley earlier in the day and look directly at the old man trimming his roses) later that night (it was 85 degrees) he came thru his window to take the mans wallet.
Why did he not go into the house next to this guys? Could it be because that person who lives in that house is black and about 40 yrs old???? Me thinks this thug was a black racist.
Number 2
Two 16 yr old white boys from my school ran out of gas on
the other side of town. They decided to walk home to get a can for gas (no cell phone and wouldnt you know it,,, all the pay phones in the ghetto were not functioning) They had to walk thru the central city where we live (about 25 blocks) They never made it! They were jumped by 4 black boys 13 years old and 300# a piece about 6 foot tall all of them were!! One white boy had a broken jaw and three busted ribs. The other lost all his front teeth.
WHY??? because they were white!
Please Peters with all due respect, anyone who wants to preach racism in this day and age can kiss my white ass!!
For the most part, your story about the cops conspiring against a black boy is bull shit.
Theres way more racism on the other side than what is coming from the white boys now a day! Is there white against black racism in this country? YES but only a fraction as much as the other way around, just walk thru a ghetto some after noon.
Think of it this way. Whats the chances of a black girl walking thru your a white neighborhood at about 9pm and getting thru pretty much un harmed? DAMM GOOD
Now whats the chances of a white girl walking thru the ghetto in your town at dusk and making it thru? LOL
Dont kid yourself! ....

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____________________________________________________________________________________
Mississippi - state of mind

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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2006-08-06          133017


Peters

I surely do not know where you mustered your figures from. Would like to read them, I have shelves of civil War books here and I can not find your statistics.
The South provided much of the Raw Materials for the Industrial North. The South consumed what was made in the North, both depended heavily on the other.
Your percent of slaves doesn't mean a one on one TRUE ownership. Some Plantation owners or Dock owners near New Orleans may have owned hundreds. Are you aware of the term "White Trash"? They too were counted as slaves, yet they were very White. They made deals to come here and work under the same script as Blacks. The Blacks were treated far better than the White scripts or slaves, for the owners knew at the end of the term, the Black could get a cabin, 4 acres of land and never become a competitor but rather stay and work as a FREE SLAVE or a RELEASED FROM SCRIPT. All the owners knew the Blacks could NOT make it on their own, so it wasn't uncommon for the Blacks who had fullfilled their SCRIPTS to stay and continue to work. The Whites on the other hand, were usually worked to the death, starved and whatever possiblly to ensure they did NOT make it to the end of the contract to become Competition. They were referred to in some parts as Clay eaters, because they did indeed eat clay to stay alive. Today we use the term to describe the lowest of the Whites and the term is from a brutal past.
Anyhow if you have 100,000 Slaves and 100,000 people it DOES NOT mean that there is One Owner Per Slave as you so duly implied. Florida was a Confederate State and Missouri was a Slave State. Slave was a word that did NOT always mean what many precieve it to be. Back then many many were needed to harvest the crops on the large fields and they were referred to as field Hands in the 1860s. The South also controlled the Mississippi for anything that was to be shipped from the inner North, went down the Mississippi and to the Gulf Ports. The railroads changed all that later and the Chinese who worked the railroads were also referred to as Slaves in the counts. Slaves encompass many and not always were they in chains and being whipped. "Approximately one-fourth of the region's Whites owned slaves OR WERE IN A FAMILY that had slaves working for them. Owning over half of the slaves, about 45,000 planters controlled the government and economy of the southern states." This says something entirely different from your numbers. To be counted in the figure, I need only be a member of a family not have knowledge of slaves. 45,000 planters owned one half of all of the slaves. Economics was a big role, for the Large Slave Owners had Power and in a growing Congress that made a difference. Loyalties to the buyers had presence over Loyalty to your country. The South Exported as well. What countries helped the South in the civil War and why? More info for you "Most plantations were owner-operated and the planters themselves often worked in the fields. Of the total southern white population of 8,099,760 in 1860, only 384,000 owned slaves. Of these, 10,780 owned fifty or more. It was calculated that about 88 per cent of America's slave-owners owned twenty slaves or less.

The death-rate amongst slaves was high. To replace their losses, plantation owners encouraged the slaves to have children. Child-bearing started around the age of thirteen, and by twenty the women slaves would be expected to have four or five children. To encourage child-bearing some population owners promised women slaves their freedom after they had produced fifteen children.

The wealth of the South was concentrated in the hands of around a thousand families. These large landowners would usually own well over 100 slaves and relied heavily on overseers to run their plantations. In 1850 it was estimated that these thousand families had an income of about $50,000,000 while the remaining 660,000 families received only $60,000,000." http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USASownership.htm
So the actions are really of the NOT SO MANY in the South and as far as the boys who died on the battlefield, I will still say 90 plus percent, did not own one and DID die for other reasons. Why? look at todays military. There are 300 million people in this country and about 1 million currently in uniform. Of the 1 million in uniform in any given year, only 150,000 are in harm's way. So 150,000 out of 300 million, I do NOT think for a minute that the FIGHTING BOYS are from Properpous families, meaning families that would be able to have Plantations or Slaves. Now make the country even MORE rural than now, elimate Railroads, Highways most forms of Commo and you will begin to understand my point. Regardless of how many people in the South owned slaves, the ones doing the dying did NOT.
The Confederate Battle Flag was indeed a Battle Flag an then there was the State Flags, the Divisional Flags, the Regimental Flags, the company Flags and then Banners etc. The State Flags flew with the Confederate Flag. Your point about the nazi Flag, pathetic. I am talking aout the Americans who died on American soil by fellow Americans. As far as I am concerned to address your point, I have NO PROBLEMs with the German Flag or Nazi Flag. I have a problem with Hitler, Goebbels, Henrich and so many others. The people are the problems, not the flags. Rommel served under the same flag and to any Good American Soldier, he is a man to be admired. Did he share Hitler's vision? No! as many did not. They were soldiers following orders. The Nazi Flag was destroyed by germany so they would not be reminded of the mistakes they made. The SS is a far more ruthless symbol.
I know you will argue with me about the symbol of a Flag, so does that mean you support Flag Desecreation? It doesn't matter what your views are, the Flag is sacred to those who have and are serving her. The Flag to me is Mountains, Streams, green grass and home, Applle Pie, Baseball, Hot dogs and freedom. To others, it is something else. I serve the flag and my views are second rate to those who have not served it. How funny. they feel they are entitled under free Speech to shit on it, piss on it or whaever. your views please, you seem to hold no sacredness in a flag. ....

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Mississippi - state of mind

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earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2006-08-06          133019


I was told by some higher educated MS resisdents that the reason I was shunned by the older white guys who didn't want this Yankee around was for one reason: The guys didn't want my Northern views put down their throats. I asked what exactly that meant. Much to my astonishment hey replied "slavery"---huh? Slavery? I thought we were past that? But it still pervaids the last generation's thoughts that the North tried shove their way of life on the South---and that's what they I was here to do. Where does this stuff come from? Are there stories that are apssed down to the generations? Is it a frame of mind? Are these guys on drugs? Please, someone give me some insight to this. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-06          133020


Earth

It is an EXCUSE and most have no idea what they are impying, they just find it COOL to be hateful of the North. Rebel has a ring to it, Yankee does NOT.
I hear every day with the Democrats and the Republicans. Most have no clue why they hate President Bush only that he is a Republican and therefore he has to be hated.
The people who act that way are puppets, controlled by a frenzy and no brain cells to allow them to think for themselves or to even try reasoning.
Street gangs, another example. they kill over colors or symbols or hoods. They do not know the other guys, never tried to go over and have dinner with them, play some ball, nope! got to be Kool got to pack some ice and kill them.
These people were not around for the 1860s have no clue of the entire picture, their feeble little minds say it is about Slavery and the North wants to take our blackies away. Damn. talk about lack of brain cells. do you really beleive for an instant that the idiot who gave you the reply had enough intelligence to explain the Civil War to you? or count to 100? ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-06          133025


WW: I'm not up on my Civil War but the terms Rebel and Yankee, aren't they associated with fighting the Britians for independence? Maybe Damn Yankee is a reference to the slavery part of the CW? In the north the Civil War is taught from a perspective that here are the facts (whatever the "facts" are depends on which side the Mason-Dixon line you're on I suppose).

You mention not liking Hitler and his gang. Incidentally, my great uncle fought against his uncle in WWII. You may have heard of him Albert Von Kesslering. Family folklore says my great uncle took a lot flack from his fellow soldiers when his name was read aloud. Just like the CW, brother against brother, uncle against nephew.

To answer your question about "counting to a hundred"...that was waht boggled my mind: this guy was very wealthy as were the other jerks who gave me a piece of their mind (or what was left LOL) 150 years ago these same guys could have been the slave holders we talk about! ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-06          133026


Here's another thing I noticed about the culture here: It seems there is a lot of engrained discrimination not against blacks, but white against white.

MS people on the Gulf resent New Orleans "Coon Asses" buying property here.

New Orleans people don't call themselves rednecks (Yankees lovingly call anyone south of Toledo rednecks). They call themselves Southerners.

White New Orleans people associate themselves more with their Boston, Mass. cousins than anywhere else in the country just by the way they speak.

White N.O. people don't like to let on to MS people where they're from---not that that they can hide it when they speak, mind you.

I heard a 19 y.o. MS girl in a Subway restaurant making fun of the way her New Orleans boyfriend talked, like he was retarded. I told her she sounded different to me too. She said, "why not? MS people are known for being the dumbest and poorest people around" I was shocked that she not only was talking about herself but that's how she was taught.

What I have to laugh at is people are people no matter their background, where they are from, or how they live. The only thing that makes them different (good or bad) is the the name they themselves give themselves that divides them.

Just like blacks, if you want to be like a white american and have all the same choices as white americans--don't call yourself and African-American---now yu just gave yourself a name and divided yourself against the majority. Then you put up a wall that says I'm different than you, and tough--you're gonna like it. Or so says this FrancoBelgianGermanAmerican-IndianEnglish-American.

But I'm jis' sayin'. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-06          133029


Earth

No! during the civil War the men who wore Blue were Yankees or Northerners, the Southerners were Confederates or Rebels.
During the Revolution we Colonists, Minutemen, Militia or just pissed off farmers.
You made some excellent points. ....

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Peters
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2006-08-06          133030


Denis: Yes it goes on and in smaller communities than up north and by both colors of skin.

WW: My data was from the US census of 1860. Major numbers are from the census directly. The percentage of families with slaves comes from the individual town records. If you go thought the individual census records you have the owner and the number and names of the slaves owned. I did not do this directly but got numbers from someone that did.

Winston County in AL and one other seceded from the Confederate. They county had few slave owners and did not what to have anything to do with the war or succession. I am not sure what other counties in the Confederacy did so, but I assume that the decision was discussed openly as it was in Winston county. Winston County has a play based on history and plays it every summer on a weekly basis. You might say they are proud of the fact they did not want the war and why. You might also say that this was publicized at least in AL. No I know that many knew what was going on. Yes there were those that were just caught up with the fervor, just as many were in the Nazi cause. When you are indoctrinated from youth it is difficult to shed the blinders. We met one in South America that had 3 tanks shot out from beneath him on the Western front. When he found out what Hitler was doing to the Jews etc. he left the country and never returned. He said it was like scales falling from his eyes. I have met another from the western front since. Some never saw the light and still believe in Arian superiority.

“I know you will argue with me about the symbol of a Flag, so does that mean you support Flag Desecreation? It doesn't matter what your views are, the Flag is sacred to those who have and are serving her. The Flag to me is Mountains, Streams, green grass and home, Applle Pie, Baseball, Hot dogs and freedom. To others, it is something else. I serve the flag and my views are second rate to those who have not served it. How funny. they feel they are entitled under free Speech to shit on it, piss on it or whaever. your views please, you seem to hold no sacredness in a flag.”

De 4:23 – 25 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. After you have had children and grandchildren and have lived in the land a long time-- if you then become corrupt and make any kind of idol, doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God and provoking him to anger.

As a Christian why would I care if someone takes his own possession and destroys it? What do I care if it represents America neither the flag nor the country is an idol to me. I am not allowed to make idols of anything. Nothing is important, nothing is sacred in this world but Christ and him crucified. I think it is a nice symbol and don’t even like to hang mine on the flag pole to get ravaged by the wind, sun and rain, but sorry in the next life it will not be important, nor should it be to any Christian in this.

Think about what you are saying. “I know you will argue with me about the symbol of an idol, so does that mean you support idol Desecreation? It doesn't matter what your views are, the idol is sacred to those who have and are serving her. The idol to me is Mountains, Streams, green grass and home, Applle Pie, Baseball, Hot dogs and freedom. To others, it is something else. I serve the idol and my views are second rate to those who have not served it. How funny. they feel they are entitled under free Speech to shit on it, piss on it or whatever. your views please, you seem to hold no sacredness in an idol.

An indentured servant is not the same as a slave. You were not born into slavery. Your children were not born to be traded. Your family was not ripped apart for financial benefit of the people. The man did not have total control of your reproduction and family. Slavery was outlawed by the church and was non existent in Europe, prior to trade with Africa.
I do not know where you got the idea that the blacks were sold into slavery. Maybe at first, but when the majority were moved they were basically kidnapped. A village was attacked but armed slave traders and the health taken into slavery. The forts along the coast which look like castles were designed like large prisons. They held the slaves in chains until the ships came to load them for the voyage. My facts could be wrong, but I have talked with my friends from Nigeria, Sierra Leone and Ghana.
I was talking with a friend of mine who is a black MS general contractor. He made the statement that I was a slave. I said what do you mean, slavery ended in 1864-5. He said when he was a child his father was a share cropper. The whole family had to work to bring in the cotton. One year all the kids were sick with the flu and running fevers. The man came and told his father he had to get the kids out and pick cotton. His father argued but had no choice, all the kids got out in the field, although some passed their lunch. This was in the late sixties. I don't know anyone in his family that is lazy.
The old share cropper’s houses are still standing in some areas and so are the mansions. A share cropper’s house was not much different than a slave’s and neither was the work or the demands. ....

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Peters
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2006-08-06          133031


EW: Prejudism takes on all forms in this country. Anytime you say we are the best, some else must be second best.

In N England we rented, lived and worked in 4 little towns. All of these towns would have been in the same school district where I grew up. People in each small town would talk bad about the other town. If you were from one of the other towns they had nothing to do with you. If you were from some other area, forget it. In KY I found the same thing although they were spread a little wider and were alot more accepting of someone from another area.
In AL and MS there is a lot of rivalry between schools but less bad mouthing towns of the other towns. Racism is bad in MS and in parts of AL. Being from the north or anywhere else is not good. Why are you here has been a question all over the US.
In B.C. where I grew up people were from all over. I new people from AL, OR and MS in my church. I never remember any conflict. Like when I return people what to know what AL is like.
As a Christian this is a problem in the US as we are told to Heb 13:2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. This was so important in the first church that Roman governors fed them to the lions, because they were unnaturally friendly to strangers and foriegners. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-06          133033


Peters: I'm a christian myself.
However, invoking scripture is out of place here. This borders on preaching and this isn't the place for it. And I for one don't want to hear it. Period. This isn't a soap box. I not only feel uncomfortable about hearing it, I get very suspicious of motives. Besides, invoking God and His word doesn't lend credence to your or anyone's else's argument; rather, it weakens it to the point that the argument is nothing more than quotes. And it shows a complete lack of reasoning, thought and logic. Anyone can spew old, written down thoughts and words, and this isn't what this venue is for. So let's keep it lite, accurate, and above all... fun. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-06          133034


Peters: You said, "Being from the north or anywhere else is not good. Why are you here has been a question all over the US."

Is this directed at me? If so, what exactly do you mean by that? If not, what do you mean by it anyway?
....

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kthompson
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2006-08-06          133035


earthwrks,
KT: "Funny how such a smart person was so dumb to get right in the middle of really stupid people."

I'm at a loss as to what these means. Are you referring to me?

NOPE. I was referring to those DY who thinks all others are (they think this of anyone who does not agree with them regardless of where they are, North, South, East or West) so stupid that they must save them.

EW, on another reply you had you mentioned what the locals there said about the reason they don't like or trust the DY's. If you lived there for a little while it will not be long before you hear the DY's line of "that is not how we did it up North". They will tell you the economy or taxes or what ever is terrible where they moved from but do their best to change here to the way they did it. You will never hear them say we did so and so and this worked and this DID NOT. All was perfect where they decided to escape from.

Please know, there are many from the North and elsewhere who have moved here and really taken it to heart to be their home and have made great contributions. Again it is attitude. Of my friends I count a couple from NJ, NY (not the city), Ohio and about all Northern States. It is totally attitude.

In the best of us there are areas that could be improved upon. That my friends is why Jesus Christ died for me and you. Red, Yellow, Black, White or Brown.

God Bless ....

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kthompson
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2006-08-06          133038


The question why are you here, could be for more than one reason.

For the most part Southerners are move to a little slower pace and want to know who they are dealing with. They only deal with a person from anywhere only when they have time to get "comfortable" with them. I deal with a lot of people from many states in my business and a question I ask a lot is why did you move here? It really can be very interesting. Moved for work, have family here, or what ever. It helps build relationships. I have no doubt my family that moved North (good Southerners gone bad LOL) were asked the same questions. Just when you are asking you don't remember it the same as when you are being asked.

There are many reason for attitudes, one is we think others think on us or discuss us more than they really do. Try this with your best friends, take a group and be talking and let another one walk up and the conversation goes quite. That person is sure the others were plotting against them. Human nature.

The fear of the unknown. All sales people run into this. So does the parent of a small child as they try to get the child to eat a new food. Nope, don't like it. But you have not tasted it. Nope, don't like it.

The fear of change. I believe it was earhtwrks a while back said something along the line of preferrring "the devil I know." This is true. We are creatures of habit and any change must be at my comfort pace or I buck against it.

God Bless ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-07          133044


Peters

"My data was from the US census of 1860. Major numbers are from the census directly. The percentage of families with slaves comes from the individual town records. If you go thought the individual census records you have the owner and the number and names of the slaves owned. I did not do this directly but got numbers from someone that did."
Your friend went through the Individual census records and added them all up????? That is alot of twons to do. I printed the 1860 census and the number of slaves and how many owned them. Here it is again 'Of the total southern white population of 8,099,760 in 1860, only 384,000 owned slaves. Of these, 10,780 owned fifty or more. It was calculated that about 88 per cent of America's slave-owners owned twenty slaves or less."

My Lord! My God has forbidden me to look at my Country's flag as Sacred? Peters, you are taking the Bible a wee bit too far. I am not worshipping the Flag, I look at the flag as I do a Headstone in a cementary. The Flag has no Net worth as would a Painting or a Piece of gold, it's total networth is how it is precieved by the person looking at it. I value the flag not because I have led a charge and watched men fall before me trying to keep it flying, but because I have read of so many others who have. I know what Francis Scott Key felt when he looked over the Fort through sulpher filled air and with the noises of battle. I know what the Marines feel when they lay a flag over the coffin of a fellow Marine. My mom had a Military Funeral and I still have her flag. You are telling me God views all this as wrong? come on, be serious.

Allow me to correct you, there were Slaves in Europe long before there was a New land. You should do some reading about your hero Christopher Columbus, he cut the front of the feet off of the Indians so they could not run away. He brought back many to serve as slaves. He murdered countless thousands. You should also find out what ever happened to Poconatas. Italy used conquered people to serve them, Gladiators were slaves selected to fight and they could earn their freedom if they were lucky. Sorry Peters, slaves have been everywhere for many centuries. Those Slave traders you speak of bought their slaves from Black Africans. Blacks raided and captured the Blacks who would be sold.

You seem to waste a lot of THIS life with the Promise that you are going to have more in the after ife. What is a Good Christian suppose to do, just run around preaching about the NEXT life and wasting the current one? What happens when you die and find out that the NEXT life is just one of many more, will you waste the next one as well preaching about the next one to come. I think God wants you to enjoy what has been given to you and use what has been given to you and be good and not evil. Looking at a Flag as sacred is NOT evil.

It sounds like to me you have been looking for that Dream Land. People have flaws, it was built into them by your God. Kids have certain areas of the playground etc. I have lived in the N.E. for a good share of my life and I never was hated in another town, nor was I ever asked what town I was from when I went shopping etc. If I struke up a conversation the question may have come up, but I never got less service or whatever. Heaven is going to have these same people there. hey! what Ice Cream do you prefer? What Team do you like better? come on, everyone is predjudice, some openly admit it and others do not. ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-07          133049


I am of the same mindset as Peters when it comes to the flag-burning amendment. The flag is important, but I cannot support measures that smack of idolatry.

First, give me an ammendment that would prohibit the burning of crosses. Now there's a blasphemy! ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-07          133056


Denis

To show RESPECT to our flag is not worshiping the flag. No one is putting the flag in place of God. I do not understand where you mean it would be idolatry. To tell people they can NOT piss on it, shit on it, or use it as Art or whatever is NOT worshipping it. People who have served the flag and for those who have it flying on their Headstones, it is just asking for RESPECT FOR IT. To me that RESPECT goes for ANY flag used by Americans and includes the Flag of the South. If Americans died for it, it should be RESPECTED and NOT used to feed an ego of some Political agenda or Racial cause. I think PATRIOTISM is a better word than IDOLATRY. ....

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Peters
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2006-08-07          133058


EW: The question why are you living here? Only indicates that we are not following what we are commanded to do as Christians and have no concept of what it means to be a Christian.
If you are not comfortable about talking about the most important aspect of your life, you might need to rethink your objectives and priorities.

WW: Patriotism is a better word, but does not change the reality of what is happening.
You are off by a factor of 10 on your number of slaves from the census. There were more than that in MS alone, something like 450,000. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-07          133059


Peters

I never gave reference to the Number of Slaves only the number of Slave Owners and that was the topic. You challenged my point about 99.9% of the soldiers dying did not own slaves, didn't know what a slve was etc. You said that 46% of the families owned slaves and I refutted that with facts from the 1860 cencus of the South.
I have no idea how many slaves there were I do know many stayed as slaves even after they had letters of freedom in their possesions. So not all slaves were unhappy or being brutalized. Many were, I do not argue that, we have employees who are treated the same way in sweat shops, so you don't have to be a slave to be mistreated. The point was about who was doing the dying and I stand by my figures that 99.9% of the soldiers who were doing the dying did not own one.
You may live in Mississippi but I do not think you can speak for them any more than I can for Vermonters. Politicians think they can, but seem to respond to those who lobby with the most money and then claim they heard their constiguents speak. ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-07          133060


WW
I have all the respect in the world for the flag, people who burn flags are despicable america-haters, but I will not cross the line of protecting a civic symbol against the 1st amendment guarantees.

There's another issue with the flag-burning amendment. Flag burning is clearly a political statement - and that is what 1st amendment is intended to defend. Why do we put so much effort into chipping away at the freedom of political speech when things like porn and cross-burning don't get a mention. Criminalize porn and cross-burning first - these are NOT forms of political speech. After you do that, come back to me about protecting the flag. Until you deal with indecency in American culture that has flourished under the 1st amendment guarantee, I don't want to hear about flag protection. How about we protect our children and Christian symbols first.

EW
A debate is a debate - Christian viewpoint is as good as any. If Bible passages make you feel uncomfortable, maybe that's because they are hard to refute. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-07          133066


Peters

Flag burning is NOT protected under the 1st Amendment any more than yelling "FIRE" in a crowded movie theater would be protected under the 1st or Saying "BOMB" on board a crowded commercial airliner.
I agree with you somewhat about Porn, but as a Bible man, why is Making Love deemed as indecent and killing is selling like crazy in theaters? Why is the human body deemed indecent and yet it is created by God? I fully agree with Killing Child Molesters and Rapists, but have we not created the immense curiosity by making nudity so taboo? Do the African tribes who run naked have the same crimes as a clothed society does? Are Nudist Colonies evil? Why is it a Sin to look at a woman with Lust, I do even when she has all her clothes on. Smile..
There is some Porn that should stay Porn but much is not. In New York State now a woman can be Topless in public and it is not Indecent Exposure. Breast feeding in Public is no more Taboo than a Hug. It is how it is precieved by the people who have their noses stuck too high in the air. I came into this world Naked and maybe the delivery rooms should be classified as PORN, I mean there my wife was, legs spread and people gathered all around. Ah! but it is said it was for Medicine and therefore OK. If Raedon comes from our homes what comes from our clothing? Am I being ridiculous, yup! to prove a point that we are a bit too carried away I am. Nakedness is NOT porn. Just my opinion. God created woman and did a right fine job and he gave me eyes so I could appreciate his work.
Oh! and Bible passages are easily refuted, don't forget the Bible was written over a period of 1600 years and by 90 authors, so you can guarantee me there is NO exaggerations or bad intel? Don't get me wrong, I beleive in God , I just don't trust anything that man says. ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-07          133068


WW, you confused my post with Peters; I'm honored ;)

Flag burning is NOT the same as yelling bomb - the latter can result in a stampede and injury and is therefore dangerous, the former is an expression of a political viewpoint that does not pose direct physical threat to anyone.

Human body is not indecent, the selling of it is. You have it on loan from God, you and I will be held responsible for how we treated it in this life. Sacred things, like procreation, are not to be paraded in public. Societies that do so degenerate and cease to exist. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-07          133072


Denis

Sorry about the confusion who I was responding to.
you made a good point but I feel I must challenge it.

Flag Burning is said to be protected under the Freedom Of Speech Amendment or Amendment 1, no where in that Amendment does it state that Freedom is revoked if it causes panic which causes harm. That has been assumed and accepted. It only says "abridging the freedom of speech" I agree that yelling FIRE in a crowded theater may cause Physical Harm, but isn't mental anguish or Mental harm equal and therefore disrespect to the American Flag by fellow Americans should be disallowed? If you are going to give EXCEPTION to the 1st Amendment based on precieved Physical Harm then why not Mental Harm as well. Now SLANDER causes No physical Harm (it may but more often than not, it doesn't) and yet you may go to Court and be sentenced for Slander, Assault (not Assault and Battery but just Assault), deflamation of character etc etc. Now where is the limitations of the Freedom of Speech for these actions written? surly not in the Consitution but in Federal and State laws, so does the State and Feds have a right to change the protection of the Constitution without ratifing a Bill and making an Amendment? ah! so we really could do the same for the Flag, we just rather hide behind the Freedom of Speech Amendment and hope anyone who wants passage just gives up, more of that Tolerance stuff.
Really denis, be honest, does it really bother you MORE to have a Flag Disecretation Amendment than it does me not having one? So you are (meaning everyone who is against, how about a people vote) telling me and all Veterans who have served the Flag (I believe you are a Veteran too) and for those who are buried beneath the flag ex: U.S.S. Arizonia or died carrying the flag into combat, or raised the flag on Mount Surabachi, or San Juan Hill, or Shilo, Gettysburg, Or any of the hundreds of battles or have it as an arm patch to represent WHO they are, don't matter? Do you put your hand over your heart when the flag goes by? why? Do you stand up, face the flag and put your hand over your heart when the National Anthem is played? why? Do you mean it when you look at the Flag and Pledge Alligiance? why? If you said YES! then what is wrong having everyone either RESPECT IT or ignore it but DO NOT DISRESPECT IT. Having an Amendment to Respect the flag does not mean you have to change any of your NO answers to YES (unless I am standing beside you j/k)it merely means that the Veteran and many other GOOD People of this country find a need to keep the flag with dignity and repsect and to piss on it, burn it or shit on it is a real SLAP in the face for those who look at the flag as all they have served for.
Come on Denis would the Flag Desecration Amendment keep you awake at night because you Honestly would look at it as imposing on YOUR Freedom of Speech rights?

My body is on loan? don't you mean my SOUL? My body stays here it is my VEHICLE. My Soul is what will be judged. you said "Sacred things, like procreation, are not to be paraded in public. Societies that do so degenerate and cease to exist." What makes procreation sacred? a concept can be sacred but not a flag? I am confused. Will ALL naked Africans go to Hell? Doesn't this go back to what I said months ago, "it is only a sin if you believe it to be a sin and do it"? Doesn't one of the Ten Commandments say "Love thy neighbor" kinda like the Second Amendment now isn't it, depends who reads it will determine what is meant by it. J/K Now! with Viagra and four hour erections, wow! alot of neighbors can be loved, start knocking on them doors. I don't think God would think that if I hugged my wife while we were at a nudist colony, I was evil. Adam and Eve were both Naked in the current public. I would think too, that if Adam and Eve only had to TWO sons, Cain and Able, then incest probably played a role in kick starting the Human Race. So Denis, the Bible is a tool, it is a guide and people need to read it and learn and not become parakeets or puppets. Seek to do good and you will be rewarded but seek to be bad and be punished. Pictures of Making Love is evil and pictures making war is good and earn Pultzer Prizes? I am sooooo confused.
Denis and Peters
My goal is NOT to discredit God but to discredit what man says about God.
question
"Can God create a Rock that he can not lift?"
If he CAN NOT create a Rock he can NOT lift, then he is NOT ALMIGHTY.
If he CAN create a Rock he can NOT lift, then he is NOT ALL POWERFUL.
God! I am sure is the creator of Heaven and Earth, man is the creator of Hollywood.
....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-07          133076


Peters and DenisS: For the record I'm a Fundmentalist Baptist.

"EW: The question why are you living here? Only indicates that we are not following what we are commanded to do as Christians and have no concept of what it means to be a Christian.

If you are not comfortable about talking about the most important aspect of your life, you might need to rethink your objectives and priorities."

My "priorities and objectives" aren't up for discussion here. Again, we can have a discussion without being preached at. Just because you lean one way or another religion-wise doesn't mean you have to bring it to the table (read: keep it to yourself). Bringing the bible into the fray is like saying you have the last word, or that no one can challenge it---case closed. That is very dangerous. From your religious perspective (not a "thinking-man's") you have the last and final word, because YOU have it from/on a "higher authority". That's bunk. Anyone who thinks this way is like a machine---"garbage in, garbage out".

Here's another analogy: It's sort of like when a little brother says to the older brother at dinner time "come inside and wash your hands". Big brother doesn't listen does he out of instinct but moreover self-preservation (you ain't in charge)? BUT if little brother says "MOM says come in and wash your hands" there is no question that he has "authority"--no discussion---no debate---AND no reasoning--no thought on big brother's behalf. See what I mean? If you leave MOM out of it and use your own words and thought processes to get your point across you will fare better in a discussion. You should be able to think on your own, reason on your own and speak on your own in an intelligible way without having to bring man-made, feel-good, look-at-me, "religion" into it. Anyone can regurgitate scripture to make fit a particular purpose or cause--look at the problems we have terrorists and al Queda as an example. And they think THEY are right and hell-bent on having the last word. Borderline zealotry has no place in discussions or debates. And for that matter in society in general.
....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-07          133080


Earth

Simply OUTSTANDING, well said and not mean Spirited in any way, raw and very to the point. Good job. ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-08          133084


WW,

For the record, I'm not a veteran. The closest I've ever come to serving was enter my info for the selective service.

"Mental anguish" is difficult to measure and prove. It's also very subjective. I, for instance, experience mental anguish, whenever I hear a liberal open his or her mouth.

Having said that, you make a convincing argument as to the need for protecting the flag. Personally, I think we have greater priorities and I listed them earlier.

On indecency, one more time: naked bush-men in africa don't exploit their bodies, porn industry does. That's what makes it wrong. How you treat God's creation, especially your very body, is a reflection of your respect for God. When you were a kid, you wouldn't go into your mom's garden and stump on the flower beds or wreck your dad's work-shop. But we feel we have the right to utterly abuse the creative work of our heavenly Father. I'm not talking about anyone in particular, I'm explaining my point on why indecency of any sort is blasphemous. Flag, as important as it may be to men, is a human creation. I do not feel as strong about its destruction as I do about abuse and desctruction of human life. ....

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kthompson
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2006-08-08          133087


Youse Guys (a Northern term, I use "you all" LOL) there is so much that is lost in print. The attitude or tone is not as easy to pick up and therefore how something is meant can be lost.

A person can ask "Why are you living here?" and not mean any thing wrong. Or they can be meaning you need to move as we don't like your KIND. A person can tell you the Bible says such and such the same way. It comes back to the reason you are asking or telling and your attitude.




....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-08          133089


Denis

"Mental anguish" is difficult to measure and prove. It's also very subjective. I, for instance, experience mental anguish, whenever I hear a liberal open his or her mouth."

LOL, Ditto..... So can we outlaw Liberals?????

Now them African Bushmen put gourds on themselves and prance around with this silly looking Gourd on their, well theirs. The Young males in some tribes have a BIG ceremony where they are circumzied in PUBLIC. Girls have a ceremony where they go thru Nude, processes as well. The people doing the ceremonies don't look at what they are doing as Bad, so in God's Eye I am sure it isn't.
I fully understand your point of view and you are entitled to it. Allow me to take it a step further. Would not muscle building and then showing off the body in competitions and shows not be the same exploitation as you refer to? Why is showing a couple making love evil? in what way? Yes! I understand there is Porn that takes it way beyond normalcy but there are Shows on TV that do the same for the violence end of it, such as Terminatior, Aliens and most Prime time Shows. Are we committing sins just entertaining ourselves with programing? We are able to watch EXTREMES on the violence side and anything to show the Love side is deemed Bad taste or Porn.

I am not presenting my arguement well, I know in my mind what I am thinking but am having a difficult time putting it all in words. ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-08          133090


EW: please disregard, bible quote moment : )

WW,

"Are we committing sins just entertaining ourselves with programing?"

we sure are; to paraphrase: "If a man so much as looks at a woman with lust he has commited adultery in his heart". I'm not trying to be killjoy here, I'm just saying there's a far greater decency standard out there than what is allowed by FCC and it would behove us to go for the higher standard. Do I always follow the higher standard? I'll plead the 5th on that one...

....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-08          133092


KT: "Youse guys" isn't a northern thing as in where I'm from. It's mainly eastern seaboard (NY, Mass., etc.). We...ahem... speak proper english, thank you very much. Where I'm from where "you" can imply one or many in a group, just like "they" can mean one or many. BUT we (I) do say "you guys" and I have to catch myself down here in mixed company as a matter of respect. Case in point, I was working for a female customer yesterday whose friend/helper is in-your-face gay. He refers to himself as Mary---so I was at a loss for words when I bid them good-bye as I started to say "see you guys later"--neither was a "guy" LOL. Mary had a wide grin on his face when he watched me trip over my words. All in a day's work though. And KT, like you suggested privately (thanks) I had many a Coke, even dinner and lunch with them and they are just good, down-to-earth people. But, to be fair they were long-time transplants from New Orleans living here is Miss. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-08          133094


You are forgiven my son. Go forth with thine post and prosper. Fill your loins...errrr...that was a line from a porno flick---never mind---wrong discussion group.

What's funny is the naked bushmen being exploited by porn as stated above. Now that's NOT one video I'm going to rush out and buy---"Bushmen Gone Wild", or "Umaba Does Africa".

And while I'm on the subject, ever notice that those who preach against porn, prostitution, being gay publically are the ones who are addicted to it privately---Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker come to mind.

Porn, just like any thing else is in the eye of the beholder. Just like drinking is. I saw a preacher the other day drinking a beer, on a Sunday. And back home south of Detroit (I lived north of) the Catholic churches have "beer tents", "carnival days", and "Bingo nites"---hmmm. The last time I looked those were all Sins (capital S).

Bottom line, it's all what you want to make it into. Or for some, justify.


But I'm jis' sayin'

....

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2006-08-08          133095


EW,

"you all" fits both ladies and gentleman and those who are
neither.

For the record I learned youse guys from nephew who grew up in Dayton Ohio. Lady who works with me is from NORTHERN Ohio and she uses it.

As to some of the SINS you mention, some are very well spelled out in the Bible in very simple language. Some are not so well defined. Those you mentioned are well defined, just as homosexual is. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-08          133097


KT: I can understand now since they are from Dayton! The use of the slang term "yous" is used by largely those of limited...ahhh...edumacation. However the term "ya'll" is not necessarily considered slang as it a contraction of two words "you" or "ya'" for short and "all". ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-08          133099


EW,

ain't nothin' wrong 'bout havn' a beer or two on a Sunday or any other day, even for a preacher - he's just a man, too.

I come from eastern european stock - we take our beer seriously. ; ) ....

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2006-08-08          133121


WW: I am not sure why you can not find the data the 1860 data is below from the government site. The % families that have slaves is a little more difficult as you need to review individual county returns. An example on the web is. www.usgennet.org/usa/region/southeast/ncmacon/1860/1860ss.html

I have always wondered why anyone was fooled by the likes Baker or Swaggart. Unfortunately, “Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile, but public definite enlistment for Christ makes you a Christian.” Billy Sunday ....


Link:   Data for 1860 census

 
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wingwiper
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2006-08-09          133125


Peters

I didn't say I could not find the 1860 Census, I said I could NOT find YOUR figures and your percentages that you were quoting from the 1860 census. I posted the total SLAVE OWNERs and it is not important how many slaves there were, we were talking about OWNERS and that I posted., TWICE.

I agree with you on Bakker, Roberts, Swaggert and the rest of the PTO or Make Me Money from your Stupidty Group.
I do not care to compare notes though on the merits of Christ. ....

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Peters
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2006-08-12          133243


WW: Your original statement was "“For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery.”
You also stated that there were 8,099,760 in the south and 384,000 slave owners. My calculation are more like 394,000 but enough said about that. 384,000/8,099760 is what percentage? I calculate near 5%. As only men went to war and in that day and age men held most of the wealth you could say near 10 percent of the men owned slaves. The number of people in the south does not represent house holds. If we assume the average house hold at the time was 5 then we have 2 million people in house holds with slaves and this is close to the stats I found gave of 33%. This is much different than 1%.
In the state in question MS, there were 450,000 slaves and 300,000 non slaves. There were about 31,000 slave holders. Again assume household averages of 5 you have 155,000 which is similar to the data I provide of 50%. Actually the number of families was 63,015.
I might be just the majority of the young men going to war were not the head of their own households and called to go to war, but the household I grew up in is slave based one. The society in which I live was slave dependent. They were living off the profit of a slave based economy. Like I stated in a county like Winston AL there was debate and rejection of the concept that they should go to war for the slaveholders.
EW and Ken; "Why are you here?" can be asked in many ways, but I don't remember anyone asking this question to someone from another country living in Canada. Your not from around here are you? Is basicly the same question although a little more direct and not necessarily directed to someone from another country, just anyone with a different accent.
If you look at the 1860 census from MS you had 750,000 people. Last census we had 2.85 million, therefore the population has only increased 4 times in 140 years. As the world population has increase about 4X in the last 50 years and the US population is 11 times since 1860 we can only assume that a lot of people have moved from MS to other territories, including Canada in the last 140 years. If Mississippians are migrating to other areas of North America for 140 years, why shouldn't someone migrate to MS? I don't know some of this might be an inferiority complex. I think I have been posed the question in both ways. Your not welcome and how could you be so stupid as to move here. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-13          133263


Peters

You Dance a good Dance.
Yes! I did say "For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery." your point??
Only 93,000 Southern Confederate Soldiers died in Combat. 93,000 out of strength of just over a million one hundred, that is just under 9% Killed IN COMBAT. Those 93,000 came from all over the South and NOT just Mississippi.
You got your 394,000 because you added states that were NOT apart of the Confederacy but stopped Slave owning with the election of Lincoln. Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri had Slaves but were not part of the Confederate States.
http://www.civil-war.net/searchofficialrecords.asp?searchofficialrecords=McClellan%20Antietam Great site to get numbers from. Has all of the 1860 Census info.
Looking at the numbers per state I added ONLY the Confederate State population and got 9,083,000 including Slaves, I added all the Families for there was a distinct number for Families and I got 1,555,262, it doesn't say if it included Slave families or not. There were 316,413 Slave Owners in the whole of the Confederacy. Now if you look at the Total Population for the Confederacy and the total KIA you have 1%, back off the Slaves from the population and you will still have UNDER 2% of the total population KIA'd. I will continue to say the majority of the Confederate KIAs did NOT own slaves.
To say that the 2% killed, came from the Non Slave owning families would be possible considering who serves and who does not. Who was educated and who was not. etc.
There is a flaw in that web site and I am sure that is the site you retrieved your info from. The flaw? read slowly.
For Mississippi it says there were 63015 Total Families
then it says there were 30,943 Slave Owners and right below that it says Total Familes that owned Slaves 49%. WRONG! The site is comparing Slave Owners to Families and then declaring the answer gives a total percentage of Families that own slaves. Wrong! It assumes there can be no more than ONE SLAVE OWNER per Family and that is pure hogwash. You could have 3 brothers and a Father from the Same family own slaves and be apart of the Total Number of Owners and yet be only a part of a single family. The data in the Premises is correct but the Conclusion is FALSE. Total number of Families owning slaves IS NOT 49%, the RATIO of SLAVE OWNER to FAMILY is. You would have to have a poll of each family that owned slaves. I have no doubt as I said earlier from another site, that there were some Owners who owned 100s of slaves. The Large Cotton Fields needed labor for the job, the Combine had not been invented yet. Families and their cousins could have owned one Large Plantation and they would make up a substantial Slave Owning number but would be only ONE or Two Families. So even Census can sum up false info.
My whole point was to preserve the Southern Flag because I do not believe it represents Slavery as much as it does SACRIFICE, period.
Play with numbers all you want and challenge my 99% but the point was what the Flag stood for. Not how many slaves there were.
The Civil War was NOT about Slaves it was about Economics and the Wealthy Slave owners had the greatest influence and control as well as Political influence, that is what scared the industrialized North and in order to beat the Wealth, Power and Influence of the Slave owners, it was best done by abolishing the means that gave them the Wealth and Power and that was where Slavery stepped in. You could compare the Slave owners to Organized Crime bosses of the 20s and 30s. They basically spoke for everyone, so to speak, only because everyone else was too busy and had no idea what was going on.

....

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Peters
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2006-08-14          133315


I don't understand your math or logic.
In the seven states that succeeded first SC 26701 slave holders and 58642 families or 46%, GA 41084 slave holders and 109910 families or 37%, AL 33730 slave holders and 96603 families 35%, MS 30993 slave holders and 63015 families or 49%, LA 22033 slave holders and 74725 families or 29%, TX 21878 slave holders and 76781 families or 28%, FL 5152 slave holders and 15090 families or 34%. 494766 families and 181521 slave holders or 37%
The states that seceded after attack of fort Sumter are: VA 26%, NC 28%, TN 25%, and AR 20%. 533192 families and 135111 slave holders or 25%.
In the Confederacy 1027958 families and 316632 slave holders or 31%
WW "For Christ sake, 99% of the boys who fell under the Red & Gray had no idea what a slave was, never owned a slave, couldn't have owned one if they wanted to and were dying for their State and not for anything to do with Slavery.”
Basically one third of the families in the south owned slaves. If you considered extended families, aunts, uncles and grandparents there were few counties where everyone did not have contact with slaves in their immediate families. I doubt anyone in a grey uniform did not know that this war was concerning slaves and the ability to own them.
Slave families were not counted, they were never even given last names and many took the names of their slave holders after the war. I showed you in the link to the data from VA. If you look in the cemeteries and I don't need to go too far in this county, the black and white family names are the same.
I agree that the bulk of the enlistment would have come from the poorer segment of society, but the south was twice as wealthy as the south, at least concerning the men that counted (i.e. white). It seems to me that you subscribe to the trickle down theory of economics of the republicans of late so we can assume that they were fighting to keep their money and way of life. Would not the average soldier in the Confederacy have greater wealth than the north? Many in the north enlisted in the north for the money, I am not sure this was the case in the south.
The election prior to the war was fought over slavery, Lincoln was known as an abolitionist, all you need to do is go and read some of his speeches from the campaign trail. The southern 7 state seceded soon after he won.
If you look at the battles in the civil war and the number of hours that soldiers had to sit around and talk or march and talk. You believe that 99% of them had no idea what the war was about and had no idea what slavery was about? The field commanders in the war were not sitting in a bunker 100 miles from the front, but riding a horse in front of the troops.
Call me simple, but the Confederacy lasted four years, before this time the States were part of the US and after this time they were part of the US, why are these states promoting a battle flag of a failed revolt unless it is in defiance of the union? You might say it is in respect of the soldiers that fought, but the average guy in the south with the Southern Cross on the truck is not showing respect for the fallen any more than the white supremacist is wearing the swastika for the fallen Germans.
Now for the kicker, what MS state flag? The bill in 1894 making it the official flag was rescinded in 1906 and no flag has been legislated to replace it or make it official again. Law suits to remove it have been thrown out as there is no legal flag (see below).
In MS little had changed since slavery in the 1950’s for the black population. As my friend stated he was a slave. When the Brown decision came down they decided to make the Sovereignty Commission (1956) to combat the integration. They were allowed to use any measure necessary to prevent the intrusion of the federal government. To a greater or lesser extent you had state funded terrorism. During integration the use of the battle flag reappeared and therefore it is associated with racism like it or not. ....


Link:   Flag?

 
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wingwiper
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2006-08-14          133320


Peters

My Math is very simple and yours is messed up, your percentages in the first paragraph of your post are worthless and meaningless. You can NOT take the Total Number of families and devide by the number of slave holders and then claim a percent of families owned Slaves. Christ, learn basic math and logic would you. You are on a wild tangent and you are using a Faulty source. I have been to the web site and it is WRONG. The Total NUMBER of FAMILIES devided by the TOTAL NUMBER OF SLAVE OWNERS does NOT, I repeat DOES NOT GIVE YOU A PERCENT OF FAMILIES WHO OWN SLAVES. your source is hogwash, so quit quoting garbage. You are WRONG! You have NO idea what you are talking about and you are adding your own assumptions into False data taken from a web site that had a a WRONG conclusion as I pointed out to you.
Find yourself a third grade math teacher and have them explain to you in person. YOU ARE WRONG. end of discussion.
You also have no clue what soldiers talk about, NOW or 140 years ago.
The point you have gone so far from was when I said the Confederate Flag and the Mississippi Flag needs to be flown with Pride, not from owning Slaves, I made that clear. But from sacrifice and call of duty. You preach your faith and how you devote your life to it. Same with a FLAG. I don't care if you don't put any value in the flag because you think the Bible forbids it, good for you. You do not control my thoughts and it is clear to see you act like a Parakeet, it doesn't matter if your sources have wrong information, you don't understand what you read, so you quote it as truth. Once again, I will say it again slowly.
YOU CAN NOT TAKE THE TOTAL FAMILIES, DEVIDE BY THE TOTAL OF SLAVE OWNERS AND COME UP WITH THE PERCENT OF FAMILIES WHO OWNED SLAVES. IMPOSSIBLE. G.I.G.O. Which stands for Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Find another subject you have done poorly here.
Many people will abuse any flag. regardless, that does not mean it should not be respected by those of us who are above the those standards. I have seen the U.S. flag, burned, trampled, pissed on, shit on, and dragged down the streets. I am above them and they are my enemies for they put evil above good and preach that the flag is a symbol of murder and evil. Their ignorance does not justify disrespect for any flag that a decent man has died for, period. I bet you have never asked one of those pick up truck owners why they have the flag have you? My brother lives in Normandy Tenn and he flies it and it is on his pick up and he flies it for Southern Pride and he doesn't own a slave, never has, came from the North, will talk and drink a beer with a Black man any day of the week. I for one beleive very strongly, that you have Niggers and you have Blacks and you have Honkies and you have Whites. I do not associate myself with the trash or the honkies or the niggers, I prefer to associate with the Whites and the Blacks. Is Pride something you rather call by every other name than Pride? You assume every pick up with the Rebel Flag flies it because he wants to own a slave? You see Slavery in the Rebel Flag, maybe Peters is the one with Tunnel Vision and refuse to see what it really means. I can see you become easily obsessed with a thought as you did with WRONG information here, maybe you have other wrong information as well and you think the rebel Flag is an Insult. My ancestors served with the Vermont Volunteers and we are buried on many battlefield. My family has fought from the Revolution right up to Iraq. Myself and every brother has served. I support the War in Iraq because I believe 24 million Iraqiis have a right to basic human life, without having to live in Fear or oppression. Do I sound like a Slave Supporter? I hold Flags in very high order and I do not support slavery in the least bit and yet I have the greatest respect for the southern soldier and their flag. Why Peters, why would a Yankee support the South/ BECAUSE it has NOTHING to do with SLAVERY, but Honor, Pride, Devotion, Sacrifice, Courage, Love, Respect.
You claim to know what a soldier was thinking. Maybe slaves were mentioned in the early days, by a very few, of the suspected one week war. But when that week turned into months and years and New soldiers came and died, they did not have SLAVES on their lips. When they pulled the trigger and felled a man in Blue it wasn't for the thought they would own a slave if they killed enough Yankees. Slavery Peters, was an excuse and maybe even the Heart but not the reason. When the Southern boy returned home after the war with a leg or an arm missing, I doubt the bar talk was "Damn I can't own any slaves now" ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-15          133330


while we're dragging the South through the mud, why don't we delve into how the white Pilgrims robbed and murdered the indians, then let's move on to the wrongful annexation of mexican territories and Hawaii and conclude with the discussion of the rasist policies of FDR that resulted in the incarceration of Japanese during the WWII. And when we're done let's all shoot ourselves because white men are and have always been good for nothing and caused nothing but problems for this world.

"the average guy in the south with the Southern Cross on the truck is not showing respect for the fallen any more than the white supremacist is wearing the swastika for the fallen Germans"

Wow! take it easy, will you?

If memory serves me right, I think it was Marx who said "the way to defeat a nation is to rob it of its history". Our enemies are sure getting there.

....

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Peters
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2006-08-15          133352


WW: You do not know what you are talking about. In the census a household is one family. The head of the household filled out the statistics for the census. One head of house hold means one family. Even if the person is single but is the head of a house hold he is counted as a family. If there are 63 thousand households and 31 thousand slave holders in MS then where do the extra slave holders go? How does 49% become 1%? The only way the stats could be skewed the way you are proposing was if there were a lot of corporations which held slaves. This was not the case in 1860. There was no reason to incorporate a business and most if not all were family farms.
I know statistics and have studied math far beyond where you finished off. You have not shown me to be wrong, only how pig headed you are.
Personally I could care less that you and your family were in the US military. Like the 4 years of the civil war is this the only experience that guides the rest of your life? Is this your shining achievement? Who told you that you deserve special treatment because of it? Who told you, you were special in some way? Who told you that you have special knowledge because of your experience? Who told you that you were better than I? Members of family have served in the military since the French and Indian wars. The Vietnam War was over before I was of age and I injured my knee smoke jumping while serving the state in college. I led teams of men in the woods and everything under the sun was discussed to kill time. Maybe you were part of a stupid platoon? Some of the crews I led were work release from the Pen. I find it hard to believe that marines are stupider than cons, but you said it not I.
You call me a parakeet. I was trained to think, problem solve and create new ideas. I have patents, thesis and papers that state that this information is new and no one in the world has thought of this before. Do you? Or are you just parroting what you have read, been told and fit with your point of view. I am willing to change my mind if you can show me where I am wrong. You have not, nor do you seem capable. You fault my source of data, mainly the University of Virginia stats. What source are you using and what slant does it have? The one bit of information you posted has nothing to do with the question.
If one in three in the south is from a slave holding family what is the probability that just one in one hundred dies on the battle field? What is the probability that one in one hundred has no idea what a slave is? I can do the math for you but you obviously can not comprehend.
Posted below someone’s calculations that confirm the estimates and number I posted. Sorry to be so obstinate but I live and work here. I have been here far longer than EW and I am near the prairie where the slave holders mainly where. I deal with the problems that were not resolved 140 years ago every day. I have discussed the flag on the back of the truck with natives in MS. In fact I had the discussion with a young man a week and a half ago and last week with some one from South Carolina last week on a plane.

Denis: I am sorry this post has spread out so long and degraded to name calling. I have tried to stay above that, but WW has started to use my name and my God’s name in vain. Which is has end in other threads so a guess it can be expected. Those that forget history are destined to repeat it. I have studied a lot of history both in university and on my own. Most of history in the text book is a white washed version of the truth. Few scholars give the facts and present war as it is, a messy and dangerous affair where stupidity and indecision abound. For example we all learned about the war of 1812. Some from one side some from the other. Pierre Berton wrote a scholarly book called “Flames Across the Border”. It details the conflict and the actions on both sides. If you read it you arrive at the conclusion that both sides were a bunch of Pratts and it is a wonder that anything was ever resolved. The stupidity was not just the politicians, but extended to all levels of the military. On both sides it is considered a victory in the school texts. ....


Link:   Estimate of Confederate soldiers from slave holding families

 
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wingwiper
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2006-08-15          133353


Peters

I am afraid it is YOU who does not know what they are talking about. The rules of the Head of household did not come into play until after 1913 with adoption of the Federal Income Tax Amendment. More than one member of a family could very easily own a slave and be counted as seperate Slave owners. Sorry Peters, you numbers are full of holes one BIG one when you try to devide number of families by number of SINGLE slave owners and come up with a Percent of Families who own slaves. It is a drastic assumption with no merit for fact.
It really doesn't matter who is head of household etc, we are talking 1860 and for all you know the Slave owner could be a slave owner in several states. Most Cotton fields cross state lines without prejudice. Even today that is true.
No one has used your name or God's name in vain, there you go making up stuff again. Where was I asking for Special Treatment? You make shit up as you go along and you believe your own B.S. Good God Peters, I made statements and I really don't care what you think. You started this whole thread for posts I had in another thread so end your B.S. and your Holy God crap. You are very predujiced for a self-proclaimed religous person and you assume way too much and you put people in catagories because they have a flag decal on their pick up or they fly a pecticular flag.
I have No Doubt you are one of those people who think the war in Iraq is over OIL. The Civil War was about Economics and who controlled the raw goods needed by a growing nation. Yes! slavery was used to harvest, that is the only reason why Slavery was sought to be abolished, because abolishing slavery took power away from the Wealthy few who owned hundreds and control a huge chunk of the Raw Materials.
Unless your major was the Civil War and you are a recognized source on the Civil War all of your thesis, patents and education is meaningless. Doctors are smart in their own field but are just as ignorant as the next guy in areas they are not educated in. I have read hundreds of pages of Civil War Diaries, been to dozens of battlefields, have read hundreds of books on the Civil War, I have done micro fiche research with the Harpers, Charleston and several other papers of the period, studied Military History, but you are right, you are an educated fool and know more than I do about the Civil War. You judge the 1860s with a mind buried in 2006, people back then were very uneducated only a select few could even write their names. Most people had their last names changed during the Civil War, because Paymasters would sound out the name or drop letters from it. The Press did the same thing and many had no idea how to really spell their own names. BUT you will tell me that they were able, with out computers or machines be able to tell if people were counted more than once, if they were owners in more that one state and had accurate counts and dealt with ONLY Head of households and only counted the same family once and no other census taker counted them again and so forth and so on and that if you devide the number of families by the number of slave owners you will get an accurate percent of families who owned slaves. That the Census Taker who rode a buggy or a Horse, actually did an Accurate count and rode to every house to check on the validity of the information he supposedly gathered. No short cuts, no lying, no made up numbers all 100% accurate because Peters wants it to be. Peters, your ignorance of the period is showing.
You claim to be better in Math and yet you have No idea about my credentials, you are assuming again. You have side stepped my point about the false conclusions drawn from the two base premises and they were 1. TOTAL NUMBER OF FAMILIES
2. TOTAL NUMBER OF SLAVE OWNERS and you insist that with those two numbers and ONLY those two numbers you can conclude the following PERCENT OF FAMILIES WHO OWNED SLAVES. For someone who claims to be so good in Math, you have stood by pure B.S., My best advice to you, go back and take Math and Logic over, you slept during the important part of class.
Good Day, and you are the Bible man and not me, so if I take the Lord's name in vain, which I haven't, it is of NO CONCERN of yours. You need to stick to a subject you think you know more about.
I would take one Marine over 1000 of you any day of the week. Marines are stupider than Cons? Really? where did you gain that conclusion from? My my Peters how arrogant you are. I never once implied any thing of the sort and I never implied I was better nor that I was looking for Special Treatment. You cried to Denis saying there was Nasme calling. MY MY how you lead the pack, Ignorant is not Name Calling, it is stating a fact when someone is not aware of the real information. Now you have flown your True flag and your posts will merit no worthiness by me. WoW! You avoided the Draft by sitting around with work crews.. Atta Boy, I used to use Prisoners as well to clear grass and the such around Ordinance bunkers. BIG DEAL. You jumped too! WoW! so didn't I, except I did it in the Marines. You put out fires? WOW! I mixed Napalm and started them. Used some W.P. as well and some good ole Det Cord. LOL. Good Day Peters, I really don't care about you, you have proven to me, who you are. You claim that you can't learn History from Text books and then quote some Book. real piece of work you are. Now we are going to play playground games, and you assume you are more wise than I and because I am military I must be some stupid person, right? Ah yes! When a person starts degraded another with assumptions and then tries to spell out their merits with filled in B.S. it speaks volumns about the person. Yup! you did a fine job.
I have gone to name calling in other threads? really, Peters what other threads? give me the details. You made the accusations now back them up. Or are you all wind? Looking for a partner to agree with you and then you will feel you have won over me. childish and you claim to be educated and act like a school boy. a spoiled little school boy, crying to his teacher about billy. Want name calling, you read the posts and your last one was filled with insults aimed at me as well as this whole thread you started with your intital post trying to discredit me with your BULLSHIT. prove you wrong? I did over and over and I am through with you, you aren't worth any more of my time. ROFLMAO you have been amusing and the sorry part is, you believe your won Bullshit. ....

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2006-08-15          133355


WW: So where did you come up with an estimate of 1 % not knowing anything about slavery? Show me the data. Nothing you have written to date has any validity and you have not presented where you have found your so called data or the logic behind your conclusion. Yet you have continually attacked my logic and data.
Did you get beyond highschool math? Did you get beyond 4th year college calculus? Did you get to graduate school stat and advanced math classes? What school did you graduate from? If so I retract my statement. If not my statement stands.
Show me how you got your numbers and quit telling me that my assumptions are wrong. Where are your statistics backing your statements?
Did you look at the logic behind the numbers in the posted link. Yes there are assumptions and yes I know there are errors in the data. In a poll of 9 million people the errors will tend to average out. The answers might be one or 2 points off, but 30 as you claim seems hard to believe?
Concerning marines, you are like most I have met, right when wrong, always prepared for a fight and never willing to back down. Very predictable. In high school we thought it was sport to go down to the city and kick marine ass so we could be carded, sent home and have the marine in irons and have to admit he was thumped by a 16 year old. From my point of view you were better with one of me than at 10 marines of the marines I met. You were the one that start denigrading people who where non military.
You stated that I knew nothing about what men talk about in camp etc and there is no way they would talk about the reasons for the war and slavery. I am stating that in the logging camps and fire camps we did talk about such things. Naturally I can underestimate the intelligence of the average US or confederate military person.
You stated you have studied civil war history and as a Ph.D. nothing I say is valid as I have not an expert in civil war history. Do you know what Ph.D. stand for? So you read a few books and you are now an expert? Where is your data to back your claim. Where is your degree in history? Or are a few diaries and the odd book the whole basis of your opinion? How have you trained your mind to think critically about what is presented? From what I have read here?
I am not your average school boy. I paid my way through school doing jobs that made being a being a marine in Vietnam look safe. What draft did I avoid? There was no draft for me. I looked into military flight training after college, but would not be accepted due to my bad knee.
By the way we mixed napalm to start fires and used exposives in the woods on other jobs. Not the most dangerous material I have worked with. ....

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2006-08-15          133361


Peters

You sure toot you own horn alot and your PhD means jack shit when it comes to the Civil War, ZERO POINT Shit. Your PhD is only good for your major, I suppose you know how to do Surgery too because you have a friggin PHd? ROFLMAO give it up will you, you are making such an ass of yourself.
Look at you, you shove bible verse in people's faces and you set a real good example. I am suppose to believe anything you say? I do not. You have no credibility as far as I am concern, you defend your bullshit with ignorance and Soapboxing with credentials that if you really had them you would know the moron you are making of yourself. Any basic math person can see the flaws in your statement about percentage of families owning slaves and you show your arrogance by continuing to defend it. You talk the talk but sure don't walk the walk. I do not believe a word you say.
You mixed Napalm to start fires in the woods, really? how did you mix it with what and what percentage? What Explosives did you use? Come on be careful now, because your answer will tell me how much Bullshit you are throwing.
Oh wow! I am sorry, you LOOKED into Military Flight School, Oh! and you had a bad little knee so they didn't take you? Bullshit.
You had jobs that made a Marine in Vietnam look SAFE, Good God, you just keep going, there is no end to your bullshit. Damn.... I paid my way through College with the GI Bill, did 6 years and hardly paid a dime out of my own pocket, who is the fool now? LOL
Kick Marines Asses, ROFLMAO, you sure can sling the shit. Sure you did, LOL I bet you did. God, you aren't even a Bible Believer as you claim, you are nothing more than a WANNABE a DREAMER.
Good Bye.. you are way too much, I have my feet off the floor because it is getting so deep with every post you post. You best go back and reread the posts, you were the first to throw the mud. This whole Thread was started by you, was it not. Now doesn't the Bible say to turn the cheek? whatsa matter, your Love of God is Bullshit too? You do a lot of pretending is there anything REAL in your life????? I am done with you, I will not respond to any more of your arrogant posts. Knock yourslef out and go sling your Bullshit to someone who believes you, I do NOT. ....

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2006-08-16          133386


WW: Now you call me a liar. To what level won’t you stoop?

You claim to have six years post secondary education. Did you finish anything? This came up before and you made some off handed statement. With the way you write I would need to see the degree to believe it. What school let you through?

Any of the stats I have seen place the literacy in the South for the white population at greater than 80% in 1960. Why do you think they placed literacy demands at polls in MS after 1877. If the total man power was between 1.2 million and 1.7 million, the high number being inclusion of the Border States, and assuming 900,000, the mean number of the estimates, went to war at the maximum that leaves you with 344,000 illiterate from the man power pool or 38% of the army if all enlisted. If at bare minimum 62% could read and write don’t you think they read the papers and literature of the day. Why wouldn't they know what was going on? Again there is a long way from 62 percent to 1 percent and you have provided nothing to support your theories just started to bad mouth me.

If you read other posts, if you can, you would realize that I was born not far from Murf and raised in northern and southern B.C. What draft was I avoiding? What government G.I. bill? I made the equivalent of 150,000 a year in today’s money and sent myself through a private school at ~26K/year in today’s money.

I was not always trying to follow God and I did a lot of things that I am not proud of. Goading young marines in Vancouver into the first swing is not one of them. I started entering the bars at 16 and was never questioned. From working in the wood I looked much older. I also took marshal arts training and played hockey and rugby. Scrapping in the area I grew up was common place. With a bunch of loggers and fishermen it was a rough society. I lived in NE five years, just a few miles from Vermont, believe me it is a kinder gentler society.

Falling on the west coast the odds of being killed was one in one hundred per year. I was part of the first group to log with choppers in B.C. It was a learning proposition at this point and more dangerous than falling or High line work, which I had worked on previously. I saw friends hurt and a few killed. Odds of being terminated in Vietnam were 2% for the 15 years of the war. I spent 4 years working in the woods or 4%, probably or higher if I consider the work and the number of times I was with in a hairs breadth of being killed and the higher risk work I did.

I have no idea what ratios of benzene and polystyrene you were using for Napalm B. We used the old formula modified, diesel oil and natural rubber. We had a lighter on the end of the spigots and need it to flow deeper into the vegetation. We mounted them as drip torches under a chopper and used it on back backs. We used nitrates and diesel with a small stick of cut dynamite with the igniter. When you are blasting a lot of granite it pays to be cheap. ....


Link:   Literacy

 
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2006-08-16          133391


Somehow we managed to get back to the topic:

" Why do you think they placed literacy demands at polls in MS after 1877"?

Eric, what is wrong with making sure only the educated are entrusted with political decision making power? Electricians and plumbers are required to demonstrate a level of competency before they can do their jobs, but you can be a total numbscull and still have a right to select the leadership of a nuclear superpower. Makes no sense to me.
....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-17          133410


Peters
I just could not ignore you last post of B.S. I promise I won't answer you again, after this. I am laughing so hard at you right now, though, it really hurts.

What U.S. Marine Base was ever in Vancover B.C. or even within 500 miles of Vancover B.C.? See that is what I mean, You knew I was talking about U.S. Marines and you are talkin about some kind of Marine whatever in Vancover. Here is your line of B.S. "Goading young marines in Vancouver into the first swing is not one of them. I started entering the bars at 16 and was never questioned." "Concerning marines, you are like most I have met, right when wrong, always prepared for a fight and never willing to back down. Very predictable. In high school we thought it was sport to go down to the city and kick marine ass so we could be carded, sent home and have the marine in irons and have to admit he was thumped by a 16 year old."
"You claim to have six years post secondary education. Did you finish anything? This came up before and you made some off handed statement. With the way you write I would need to see the degree to believe it. What school let you through?" I claimed???? I made a point. It came up before?? Well maybe, I don't answer your question because it isn't any of your business and I don't Soapbox like you do. With the way I write and you need to see my degrees? Not in this life, Buckwheat.
"WW: So where did you come up with an estimate of 1 % not knowing anything about slavery? " Where did I write 1% did not know anything about slavery? You not only can't read well, you are confused and can not even quote numbers that are printed in front of you. PhD my ass.
"I made the equivalent of 150,000 a year in today’s money and sent myself through a private school at ~26K/year in today’s money." What the Hell is that suppose to mean? You mean you made $30,000 Canadian, back when, and thru Inflation and thru the rise of the Canadian Dollar it is now equal to $150,000 TODAY's Money?? Now is that U..S. or Canadian? and Big Friggin Deal. No one cares if you went to a Private School, no one cares how much you made then or now. You must really be a wannabe to use Today's Money value to make people think you were really a BIG Deal. LOL
"I also took marshal arts training and played hockey and rugby. Scrapping in the area I grew up was common place. With a bunch of loggers and fishermen it was a rough society. I lived in NE five years, just a few miles from Vermont, believe me it is a kinder gentler society." WOW! Now we are getting a Life History of a nutcase. You lived just a FEW miles from Vermont? Where and exactly how far is a FEW, I mean you are judging Vermont and yet you have NEVER been there. I grew up with Loggers and Farmers. Known many who have died in the Woods. Vermont was a BIG Logging State not too long ago. I guess you knew this, you only lived a FEW miles from Vermont for five years. ROFLMAO, Kinder, gentler.. you had it so bad, you poor little thing. Give me a break. How the Hell do you even get on your soapbox?
Here is a line from your whatever "Odds of being terminated in Vietnam were 2% for the 15 years of the war. I spent 4 years working in the woods or 4%, probably or higher if I consider the work and the number of times I was with in a hairs breadth of being killed and the higher risk work I did." Hate to break the news to you, Buckwheat, Vietnam was NOT 15 years. It was 1963 to 1975. Unless you are counting 50 American Advisors a WAR. Even then the War as you saw on the News didn't start until 65 or 66. How did you come up with these percentages of 2% and 4%. Are we including Wounded as well, or loss of limbs? Belly shots don't rate mention in your comparisions? LOL. You were a hairs breadth away from Death? How do you measure that? How do you know you were ever near death if you didn't die?
"I was part of the first group to log with choppers in B.C. It was a learning proposition at this point and more dangerous than falling or High line work, which I had worked on previously." Now are you trying to imply for your Great Ego that you were a pilot or on the ground while the Choppers (what childish reference) flew overhead? were they 53s? or 46s? or were they Bells? Loaches? Cobras? Hueys? old 34s? what is a chopper in your reference? Peters you are way too funny. My gut hurts from laughing at you.
"I have no idea what ratios of benzene and polystyrene you were using for Napalm B. We used the old formula modified, diesel oil and natural rubber. We had a lighter on the end of the spigots and need it to flow deeper into the vegetation. We mounted them as drip torches under a chopper and used it on back backs. We used nitrates and diesel with a small stick of cut dynamite with the igniter. When you are blasting a lot of granite it pays to be cheap. " Back Backs??? Ours was mixed 45/35/20 or there abouts. we used Gasoline and NOT Diesel. We didn't want a quick poof, we wanted it to spread and burn, Hot, slower and cover larger areas, that was the job of the polystyrene. Ours were dropped in Cannisters, from aircraft. It sounds to me as you were using more of a piss poor Flame Thrower and used Diesel so you all wouldn't hurt yourselves. Interesting why you would have to mix Diesel with anything, seems it would have more of a tendancy to Gel and Jelly Napalm is worthless mostly when trying to push it through a nozzle. I am confused about Your OLD formula, the U.S. Military hasn't used it or made it in decades. So OLD meaning what? What is CUT DYNAMITE?
Here are some questions, see if you can answer them.

There are 10,000 Families
There are 4,000 Automobile Owners
What percentage of Familes have Automobiles?

Ok! try this one

There are 10,000 Families
There are 2,700 Home Owners
What Percentage of Familes Own Homes?

Maybe this one

There are 10,000 Families
There are 1,800 Dog Owners
What percentage of families own Dogs?

Ok, this one you already answered

There are 63015 Families
There are 30,943 Slave Owners
What percentage of families owned slaves?

I read your posts and find thm hilarious. I have never known anyone who loves to soabox as much as you and has such a WILD Imagination. Note, I have never said LIAR in any of my posts and yet you said "WW: Now you call me a liar. To what level won’t you stoop?" I will say, If the Shoe fits, wear it.

I swear this is my last post to you, I just couldn't help it. The Marine Part had me rolling, I thought you were referring to U.S. Marines and I could see this 16 year old popeye walking into a bar. ROFLMAO, turns out it wasn't U.S. Marines after all, but maybe Marine Animals.


....

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Peters
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2006-08-19          133476


Denis: I see no problem with a literacy exam today for voting rights. You graduate high school, have a reading comprehension test and are given the right to vote. Theoretically everyone now has a chance to attend school. It might give them added incentives not to graduate people who can not read and for people to learn to read. The same thing should apply to citizenship.
Naturally both would require that the US designate English (or some other language) as the official language, something that the legislative branch of the government has not gotten around to in the last 230 years.
My point concerning MS was the white population could read and had schools. The black population could not and did not have the opportunity to schools. They had just been given their freedom. In the first election after the war the first black Congressmen were sent from MS. In Mississippi there were more slaves than white. The law was intent on having the black population remain subservient to the white. It is pretty hard to build schools for the people when you have no say in government.
The heart of it is that the average white man in MS must have been able to read. It would have been extremely difficult to pass a law that excluded the bulk of the white population and the bulk of the black. Naturally this contrary to what the plane polisher thinks. ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-21          133546


Eric,
I understood what you meant by your comment on literacy requirements (and poll taxes for that matter). No question these policies were meant to suppress the black vote.

But there was also some validity in these policies as they identified the portion of the population that was less than prepared to make educated political decisions. The black population should have been gradually admitted into the political process as their education and standard of living rose to the levels of white population. Instead, the republican administration of that time instituted Reconstruction policies that trampled on states and property rights, completely antagonised the white population and led to the rise of KKK and subsequent anti-reconstruction reaction, including the resurrection of the Confederate Flag.

Having said all that, importing African slave labor was, by far, The stupidest thing in the history of this country. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-22          133565


Denis

Actually! I would say putting all of Our EGGS in the Fuel Oil Dependancy Basket is the STUPIDIST thing we have done or rather doing.
Oil prices have put this country on her knees. As China increases demand we will have to pay more as the Prices rise under pressures of the highest bidders.
Our Nuclear Research has been stagnant.
Our Solar Research has been stagnant.
Our Thermal Research has been stagnant.
Our Wind Research has been stagnant.
Our Tidal Research has been stagnant.
and so on and so on. The Pressure to Research and develope in other areas has been lax. Our dependancy for Oil is a real self inflicted dependancy. We create Oil Hungry implements for items that worked well and were good for us, such as Push Lawn mowers to Gas Mowers and tractors. Brooms to Gas powered blowers, Bikes to ATVs, Axes to chainsaws, Candles to Generators, there is No question these items may be needed on a large scale but for the regular home owner they are oil consuming Luxuries that many can no longer live without and they DEMAND the Government to protect their OIL CONSUMPTION.
Our depandancy is where we can be put onto our knees, by Oil Rich Terrorist countries. It may cost us millions of lives as a result of the New Tech Wars. At least Slavery allowed the country to prosper. Our Oil depandancy is a Time Bomb with no real happy ending and the end of our Prosperity. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-22          133566


WW: What about Big Business? They are the biggest stumbling block to progress. Case in point: Back in the '20's I had a great uncle who was a machinist for GM. On his own time he made a device that looked like a simple impellor that mounted between the carb and the intake of a Caddillac. It nearly doubled the fuel mileage. He contacted one of the big gasoline supplier of the time. They came out and bought his invention and the tools in basement for $3000.

Why?

They didn't need competition. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-22          133568


Earth

True! in the Late Teens there was this guy who took a Ford and placed it on Stage, he had everyone come up to the car and inspect it for any hidden Fuel tanks or fuel supplies. When everyone was satisfied there was no fuel hidden anywhere, he attached a tank, filled it with WATER and added a large Tablet, something like the Old FAB TABS, into the tank, after a few minutes of allowing the Tab to desolve in the Water filled tank, he started the engine and it ran fine. He claimed the tab was made from Peat and Sod and some other stuff and that the recipe was so simple, no one would ever find it.
Rumor had it that the guy who invented the Tab was killed on his way to Washington to achieve a Patent on his invention, Furthur rumors said it was American Standard Oil People who killed him.
In the Mid to late 80s there was two guys in Florida who took a (Hamms ??) Diesel Engine, did $600 worth of modifications to it and then drove to Washington D.C. on $1.65 worth of Diesel Fuel. Ford Motor company called them while they were sitting in front of a large Committe and no one has heard another thing about it. I watched it on a 10 foot dish, long before there was Scrambling and the NEWS covered it for several days.
I just tried to do a google search on any of the experiments and there is not a word, that I am able to find.

Note; I understand when you add acceleration, braking, passing, hauling etc, a vehicle designed for incredible MPG will drop dramatically. If you want Torque you will pay to move. I have sat for hours in 10 mile long traffic jams, I have wondered all to often how much fuel was burned, Nationwide for poor timing of construction. Pa. started to do a lot of Night construction. ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-22          133572


EW,
It's a free country - what stopped your uncle from marketing the invention himself?

WW,
Oil dependency is stupid but not the stupidest and here's why. We have the military wherewithalls to ensure our oil supply, we just don't have the resolve to do it.

Our nation has no unity of purpose because our national identity is slpintered among ethnic faultlines.

Do you hear what I'm saying? Race is a fundamental identifier imbedded deep in our genes; for millenia, identifying with your race allowed for your survival, that's why a man will nearly always side with "his people" regardless of what the circumstances of conflict are. To ignore this fact is to ignore human biology and when social policy goes against human biology, the biology always wins. People are herd animals and they prefer their own herd. We have too many different herds in this country and not that much pasture. Hence we have internal conflics related to our heterogeneity. We're weak from the inside. As long as the white majority ruled the country - America was strong and the minorities, though they had no political influence, were strong with it. Now the white majority is waning, the Western European civilization based on the Christian principles of Universal Redemption and the Triumph of Righteousness is being replaced by oriental philosophy of indifferent creation:

"Nature holds no prejudice and cares for all things the same. It views everything as so many straw dogs, neither loving nor hating them." Lao-Tzu , Tao, Chapter 5

The ethnic shifts in America are causing a growing internal strife and the external enemies see it and are starting to nip at our heels. Oil would be within our grasp had we really wanted it, but not everyone sees our fundamental need for it, minorities for the most part do not want to see America as the sole ruling superpower and so we're a house divided.

How did we get here? By importing millions of Africans and keeping them segregated from mainstreem for upwards of 200 years. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-22          133575


Denis

You make it sound as if Black Slavery and White Americans is the ONLY Slave issue.
The American Indian has suffered slavery, massacres and sport shooting from Blacks and Whites. We grew up playing Cowboys and Indians and not Slaves and Slaves Owners. Yet even to this day, it is the Blacks who scream for pity and special attention and no one even asks where the Native American is or the Chinese American who toiled just as hard as any Black. Here in Vermont the poor Italians (White) were imported and used in the Quarries because of their Skills in sculpture.
There are only Three Human Groups, Cacausoid, Mongoloid and Negroid. Members of each group have been slaves for members of the other group over the centuries, the American White and Black were NOT the only case, it seems to be the only one that dwells decade after decade.
I agree 100% with your point "Our nation has no unity of purpose because our national identity is slpintered among ethnic faultlines" but do not agree with your very last statement. Many countries did the same thing and for many hundreds of years longer and do not dwell on it as we do.
Christopher Columbus was responible for tens of thousands of Native American Deaths and countless thousands were brought back to Spain, Portugal and other parts of Europe to be used as slaves.
Aztecs, Incas and Mayans would use captives as slaves and then as sacrfices.
Some countries would impale their captives by the hundreds along traveled roads to send messages. They would capture and breed the woman, enslave the children, use the men as slaves to row their war ships or entertain them in the arenas.
Slavery is a common word amongst every single nationality and members of every race have been a slave. Americans allow people to keep reminding them. We have had no slaves for well over 140 years and you would think it ended just last week. ....

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2006-08-22          133576


WW,

I'm not at all saying white ownership of blacks was the worst example of slavery in history; in fact, it might have been among the mildest. The problem is the interracial nature of American slavery.

Many nations who practiced slavery could get over it because 2-3 generations after slavery ended there you couldn't tell who was the slave and who the master - so long as skin color was the same. Or the nation that enslaved another nation no longer did so. We don't have this luxury here - anyone with African features will forever claim victim status because of what happened centuries ago and they are not about to leave either, nor should they have to. Recent black immigrants are anothger issue; funny thing how many actual Africans cross the ocean now a days and cry about racism once they settle here. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-08-22          133577


Denis

There are Blacks in every country of Europe and they were slaves in about every country of Europe. You can tell a Greek from a Roman, a Turk from a Greek, etc etc. I can tell a Chinese from a Japanese or Korean. Cultural evidence of slavery still exsists in European countries, but War was among most every country there and at one time or another, every country ahd been at war with another. Here in the States our faults are more focused. We aren't surrounded by 50 countries that make up our history, our history is much more limited, much easily focused on. It isn't a maze of confusion as it would be with England, France, Spain or so many other coutnries.
I think Americans allow themselves to be victims of rumor and accusations. They deligantly snap to attention when accused and admit wrong and pay penalties. I see this with no other country. ....

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DenisS
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2006-08-22          133578


"They dilligently snap to attention when accused and admit wrong and pay penalties"

despite the decades of getting stumped in the dirt that protestant ethic is still showing through. Somewhere it says that the children of the righteous are blessed to the seventh generation. I figure the last truly righteous generation of Americans to be the great generation who fought WWII. If you measure each generation to be the time it takes for an average adult to begin procreation, it's about 30 years now in the US. So add about 200 years to the end of WWII and that'd be about the time all hell should break loose. ....

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2006-08-22          133592


DenisS:
"EW,
It's a free country - what stopped your uncle from me the invention himself?"

How can you tie being "free" with "marketing"?
Assuming you knew my uncle (and you must have to make an off-the-cuff remark like that) how can you assume he didn't market it? The fact that an oil co. DID buy it qualifies as "marketing." For your edification, I have marketed my inventions going back over 20 years. It takes more money, more time, and more perseverence than you could ever imagine. My dad was an inventor also; he was featured in Popular Science Magazine in 1976 for a waste-oil-burning heater he developed that put out 6 million BTU. And he ran into marketing blues, though Chrysler and GM were in line to buy it.

....

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2006-08-22          133594


EW,
I am well enough aware of how difficult it is to put a new product on the market and your uncle was hardly in a position to compete with established autoparts makers.

My comment had more to do with your contemptious comment about "big business". Big business exists to make money, pure and simple. Don't expect them to exhibit higher morals or altruistic attitudes. They bought out your uncle's invention because it suited their interest. Your uncle, may he rest in peace, didn't have to sell his invention.

What would you prefer, that we have no big business? that all businesses be small? Who makes just about anything you or I have of any commercial value? Some local mom and pop outfit? Big businesses aren't "good" or "bad" - they are money making operations, and, by the way, they pay a lot of people, including myself, decent wages. Very much unlike Big Labor or Big Government. ....

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SG8NUC
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2006-08-22          133606


Well my northern brothers ya'll won the war and look at the mess. I dont think we could have done any worse. Mexicans flooding the neighborhood, Arabs blowing up stuff, and Hillary maybe the next president. Damn you got to love It what a great country. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-23          133614


SG8: How would things be different if the North hadn't won the war? And why does this "us against them" still persist today, That's more of a statement than question. ....

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2006-08-23          133638


EW
You wont sucker me into some senseless argument over long ago evolutions. In order to put some answer to your statement I think it is like the cowboys and indians, or more recent times NFL Dallas cowboys and the washington redskins. It is the old chip on the shoulder, cant get it from under your skin. It seems to be a matter of competition more than right or wrong. You know wait until next season. I was trying to lighten up the post with my comments I called you brothers. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-23          133641


SG8: "It is the old chip on the shoulder, cant get it from under your skin. It seems to be a matter of competition more than right or wrong."

SG, but that is the bigger question: (keeping in mind I'm Yankee and have not be engrained with Civil War still lives thinking---seriously) why does it have to be a a "competition"? To my mind it causes a rift, in the same way when blacks who are 10th generation americans refer to themselves as african-americans. They're as much an african american as I'm a german-american. Seriously, think about it---do you see the paralell? ....

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2006-08-23          133644


as far as I am concerned we are all americans, I am proud of my heritage and race. I think all americans should bring their children up to be proud of their race and not bring down other races. The world would be a better place.

I dont know why it has to be a competition, I was trying to give an explaination to your statement. I see and understand the paralell I think they have their heads up their butts. I know why the civil war was fought, I dont need to question it. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-24          133651


SG: Something to think about: I was watching Tony Brown's Journal on PBS. They had a speaker on the show that made the point there are not "races" plural, but only one "race" which is Human. "Ethnicity" may be the word you're looking for when it comes to pride. ....

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2006-08-24          133662


The races were made by God for what reason I do not know, and wont question it. Tony is correct we are all human. Given a chance without human intervention it may just all work out. We try to change things for the best and alot of times it is for the worst. The clock is still ticking and I for one will make the best of it. All and all people have the desire to do the best thing and to be good just my ideas. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-24          133665


SG: Yer missin' the boat.

There are no racES.

Only one racE:

Human.
....

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2006-08-24          133669


oops, you are the smartest man I know. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-24          133673


Awe, com' on... gimme a hug. If I'm the smartest, then you might wanna get to know more people :) ....

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2006-08-24          133674


Well my wife doesn't let me out much, so you may be correct.
I'll hold the hug for you. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-08-25          133689


SG: Hey, buddy ol' pal... you used that "smartest man I know" another time toward me (I think about power rakes if memory serves). What's up wit' dat? ....

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2006-08-25          133692


Man we keeping score, if I said it twice it must be true. There was a fellow supervisor at work that told the General forman that he was the smartest person he knew. One minute later when the Nuclear director walked in the told him the same thing, 30 seconds later when the Division head walked in he received the same title. The General Foreman told the Division head to live it up because the Base Comander may walk in at any time. But I still love you. ....

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