New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-16 138082
My neighbor has a TC 33D just like mine that he bought used. He knew I had performed the 300 hour service on mine of replacing all the filters and hydraulic oil so he asked me if I'd give him a hand. He had bought some WIX filters to replace the ones on the tractor. (I had sent him a website on the testing of filters and WIX was highly recommended). So, we drain the hydraulic fluid, change the filters, replace the fluid with a 10-20 weight fluid he bought and he starts the tractor to check for any leaks.
Now I've never experienced a problem with a filter leaking or otherwise but after about 20 seconds their is a noise like a spark jumping and the transmission filter starts to leak badly. He immediately shut the engine off. We take the filter off and the gasket wasn't seated right. It was initially. He reseats the gasket, replaces the filter, starts it up and the filter starts to pour out fluid again.
So, we decide that despite what the WIX website says, this is not the correct filter for this tractor. Now he puts his old filter on until he can get a new filter. He starts the tractor up and now his bucket and backhoe will not work.
It's like he has no hydraulics going to them. Any ideas?
I'm sorry now that I had sent him the info on WIX.
By the way, we checked my own tractor and that transmission filter is the only one on it that isn't a WIX. I just happened to buy a New Holland tranny filter one day while I was at the dealer.
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL Pics |
2006-12-16 138084
I assume you have replaced the oil that was lost? I would think it is just a matter of cycling until you get the air out of the lines. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-16 138086
Yes Peters, the oil level was at or just above the full mark. We figured a hair above is OK because it hadn't had time to really circulate through the system. By the way, he could move the tractor forward and backward, just no hydraulics to the bucket or backhoe.
I'm just hoping this is something simple because I really feel bad about recommending Wix. I'm not saying they're a bad filter, just that that particular filter obviously doesn't belong on there despite what they're website says.
I've been using them in my cars and on my tractor, just not (by chance) that transmission filter. Thanks for your reply. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-16 138087
I've got a TC33D too. The propulsion system is a different type pump than the aux. power and is inline with the gear transmission and part of the drive motor assembly. The pump that runs the hydraulics is located on the right side of the engine and is quite small for what it does. The sound you hear may be a buzzing which is cavitation from a lack of oil. It should go away after a few seconds if it's warm out. If it's cold out it could a awhile. You have to careful with New Holland and filters. I have a skid steer that has a very unique filter and no one can get them EXCEPT the dealer. So you should be careful to use factory-spec'd filters IMHO. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-16 138088
Thanks EW, I knew you had the same machine. I think I will be using only NH filters from now on. I'm still puzzled by why his hydraulics aren't working though. In the few times he tried his loader, initially it would raise gradually but it got so it wouldn't move at all. What could have happened in that very short time that the filter started leaking and was that the cause of the problem or just coincidence? ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-16 138091
Based on what you tell us it sounds like the pump lost fluid and well, is wiped out. If you had said the backhoe and loader were jerky then that would tell me it was cavitating---but it sounds like you're past that point. It just takes a second to wipe out the pump (been there done that). You may be able to buy a rebuild kit. Again this is based on what you have posted, so it could be something else---buuut I doubt it. I'm not near my machine but I'm not sure the same pump runs the power steering--does it steer? ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-16 138093
I wasn't on the machine EW but he didn't say anything about the steering feeling difficult. He just moved it ahead a foot and the same backwards. Would the pump lose fluid just by the filter leaking for a few seconds? Would that be enough to ruin the pump? I would think it would just cause an obvious drop in oil pressure but would that burn it up? It would still have oil going through it wouldn't it? I would think air in the lines would cause more damage than a drop of pressure. Don't misunderstand, I'm just speculating. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa |
2006-12-17 138095
Justis; I'll have to agree with EW in that you may have ruined the pump by having a filter that did'nt have enough capacity due to micron size or some other internal restriction inside the filter. Most likely the fluid from the pump goes directly to the filter before it gets top any bypass valves so the fluid had a dead end and something had to give. The spark jumping sound you heard sounds a lot like you have cut a woodruff key on the shaft in the pump or worse the key in the gear that drives the pump off the timing gears. I sure hope I'm wrong, but the symptoms sure boil down to that. Best of luck. Frank. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-17 138101
Hardwood mentioned what I was trying to get across ---the offbrand-type filter might be the culprit. I don't ascribe to "if it fits it will work" when it comes to filters. I went to the WIX site while back and there are BIG differences in micron size, fuel versus oil use, pressure drop across in/out (i.e., backpressure), and other characteristics. Hardwood may be right about the shear key, but from my experience blowing up those things hydraulic, either the pump would break apart, or the filter would buldge and blow. So don't get the bright idea to dead-head the lines anywhere---or you WILL blow something expensive apart--trust me.
To answer your direct question about fluid loss, I had a sharp branch spear my filter which resulted in about 5 gallons of fluid loss before I smelled it (I was brush hogging in reverse). That was years ago and everything has been okay since. I would end playing with it, get a new filter and replace oil---double check the level and high tail it to a hydraulic shop if your dealer doesn't have the tools to check it properly. The hydraulic shop will need the pump specs from the dealer though otherwise it will be just a guess and a waste of time. The instantaneous wear from cavitation results from the wear pressure plates on the sides of the pump gears contacting the gears and milling them down--normally the oil acts as a buffer to make a seal. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-17 138104
Does the machine have a rear remote? If so check that the lever isn't semi-engaged or stuck in one position or the other. Mine does this from time to time after sitting for a while and pivots rust. The stuck lever will cause fluid to bypass and feels like a lack of power to the 3pt hitch (won't lift) AND it will hiss and sometimes sound like a high pitch scream as it passes the bypass valve. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-17 138105
I'm quite sure he doesn't have a rear remote on it EW.
I'm still hoping it turns out to be something simple like that. I'm trying to block all this "Pump gone bad" stuff out of my mind because I feel bad so bad about the filter. If/when he finds out what the problem is I'll post it but I'm still open to suggestions in the meantime. Where's Tony when you need him? ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-17 138106
It only takes a second to see if there is a rear remote. Look for a lever with a hydraulic cylinder icon on the right fender pod next to the 3pt lever.
Tony's p'robly hunting! You can send him a private e-mail, like I do. Good guy. And a smart guy. Just go to his profile and it's there. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-17 138108
I was on his tractor one time and I'm quite sure he doesn't have anything like that next to the 3 pt lever.
I"ll be gone for a few hours but I may do as you suggested and send direct to Tony. Thanks EW. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa |
2006-12-17 138116
Justis; Sorry if I struck fear into your problem, but like EW I've been around hydraulics a long time and also have blown pumps up, split filters, ruptured hoses, pushed the ends out of cylinders, etc. etc.. so I guess by nature the worst case situation comes to mind. If by chance I was right on the sheared key thing, you can be lucky enough that just replacing the key may fix it, a cavitated pump like EW described is normaly scrap iron. I don't even own a Kubota, but most tractor hydraulic systems are pretty similar in design so I kinda used basic hydraulic theory to answer best I can. I was a dealer for Baldwin filters for a long time, so I kind of remember things about micron size, anti drain back valves, internal bypass valves, different filter medias (cotton, paper, even toilet paper in some older applications), etc. I've rambled enough. Frank. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-17 138117
I'm not an optimist by nature Frank but I sure hope it's something easy. I did send e-mail to Tony too as EW suggested. EW, I was over talking to the neighbor briefly and there is no rear remote on his tractor and the power steering is fine. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL Pics |
2006-12-17 138124
EW Is there another bypass valve that could be stuck open?
How much oil leaked in total? I certainly have lost a lot of oil and never lost a pump.
Naturally I have blown up a pump, but it was cavitating for a while before it broke.
The new units have separate pumps for power steering and hydraulic implements. I think the old TC33 was the same if my memory serves me. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-17 138125
Peters, I'm guessing maybe a quart of fluid at most before the engine was shut down. As for the power steering and hydraulics, it looks like something comes off the engine and powers both the hydraulic pump on one side of it and the power steering pump on the other. I'm no mechanic, just describing what it looks like. I'm hoping my neighbor finds out more tomorrow. I've been sending him some of the possibilities posted here. Steve ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1490 south central pa Pics |
2006-12-17 138143
I know it has a back hoe on it but did you try to move the 3pt hitch at all (it should not). Does the tractor start easy or is it labored. When the unit is running does it sound normal or is there a whine or any unusual noises. Under the right step there is a block that The steel lines for the loader valve and the disconnect fitting for the back hoe. In the center or that block is a screw what position is it in 12 O'clock 3 O'clock ect. Also make sure that the pressure line to the back hoe is connected properly. It should connect to the rubber hoes coming down from the loader valve. Let me know what you find. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina Pics |
2006-12-18 138148
Did you save the filter? If WIX shows it as proper filter they should hold some reasonability in repair. If it shows as proper filter on web site print that off (they can change quickly) but you may find a disclaimer as to the web site being accurate. Just covering tracks.
Is possible there was some trash (mabye part of the inside of the filter) pushed into the valve body slowing the flow? ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa |
2006-12-18 138152
I had kind of forgotten, but Baldwin had a good waranty when I was a dealwer for them. If their filter was the cause of a problem they paid the bill. I had a customer who owned a Masey combine that had only a primary air filter and no safetgy element, The new filter he bought from me had a tear in the paper somehow when it was made, and as a result it ruined his engine in one days combining, Baldwin paid the bill with no hassle. Till you see a warranty like that actually pay off you wonder if it really is any good, but they came thru on the spot. Frank. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-19 138197
My neighbor hasn't had much time to look into the hydraulics problem. He has checked the hose connections Tony and all seems OK. That screw is in the proper position also. I neglected to ask him about the hitch but I will. One of the local dealers told him to check for air, take off a filter. Both filters have fluid in them. We're wondering if it could be a pressure relief valve but the dealer didn't seem to want to tell him anything about that, not even where it was. Frank, is the only way to know a key is sheared to take the pump apart? He's also wondering if the 10-20 weight fluid is too heavy?
With the neighbor being at work every day it's going to take a while before we find out the problem.
Thanks for everyone's input. Steve ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-19 138200
Took a look at mine, and the aux. power pump is on the right side of the engine attached to a casting in the block. Looks like it's gear driven or possibly a chain---dunno. The power steering pump is sistered up to it but on the front of the casting, likely sharing a common shaft or gear. Looks easy to take apart---errr...remove. There's a possibility a pump gear tooth is missing or the shaft is broke---just an experienced guess--not on mine but on my loader/backhoe. The reason the dealer doesn't want to share info on the relief is liability if you exceed the design limits by messing with it. It's are for a reilf spring to break or go weak all of a sudden, but it can happen. Also, when I installed my rear remotes I had to remove the existing valve body behind the right rear tire and replace it with a completely different one. Inside it are checkballs and springs and valves (if I recall right).
It's probably something staring you in the face and something simple. Sort of like when I lost power in my first new truck. I checked all the fuses so I thought. The technician found it in 2 minutes and charged me $35 for a fuse--finding the problem was free. That was 20 years ago. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-19 138201
Exactly right on the description of the pump EW. We've been trying the easier possibilities but so far none have worked out. He/we are still hoping it's something simple.
I think this is an interesting occurance and I'll be curious to see what the problem actually was. I know my neighbor will be relieved to find out the problem and get a good night's sleep. He's begun referring to the tractor as a "boat anchor!" That's not good! ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL Pics |
2006-12-20 138204
Justus tell your friend that there are plenty here on the board that will gladly take the boat anchor away. It is likely something simple. Even the pump replacement is not that large of a chore.
When the pump packed it in on the MF 65 power steering it took out the large drive gear on the front of the motor. Not only a 500 dollar pump but a 500 dollar gear. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1490 south central pa Pics |
2006-12-20 138205
And how many hours of labor? ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa |
2006-12-20 138206
Justis; Far as flid type only your dealer or the owners manual should be your guide to the proper fluid. Most likely the pump is fastened to the engine block or the front cover of the engine plus the hydraulic tubes or hoses connected to it. Unless there is something unique about the mounting common hand tools should get the pump off. I don't know how the pump drive gear fits into the timing gears, but normaly they drive off the camshaft gear or an idler gear so nothing should get out of time when you take it of. Once off if have any mechanical experience you will figure out the dissasembly pretty quick, otherise take it to a dealer or hydraulic shop, they will have it apart in a few minutes. Really 330. for a new pump isn't bad, an aluminum wheel for your wifes minivan will cost more than that. I know you feel bad about the whole thing, but no blood was spilled, it's just iron and oil. Frank. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-20 138208
Sorry Tony ---didn't mean to forget the Tecky :)
But seriously, it looks to me to be fairly straight forward; to remove the pump, oh maybe 15 minutes inc. moving the lines and maybe 15 to do a rebuild. So maybe an hour and half inc. a pee break. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-20 138212
Peters, I think he's mainly upset because of the bad luck with something so simple. You know what it's like when you have something you want taken care of but can't get at it. Plus, he has been thinking about getting a new Kabota and now he feels like he should have not bothered with the fluid change.
Frank, I'm sure that if it is the pump, unless he gets someone else to do it while he's working, he and I would be able to do it. Of course, I can't guarantee no blood loss.
EW, is that how they give estimates down in Sippi? :-)
Thanks for the input and, as I said, when we find out the problem I'll let you know.
....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-20 138214
By the way, I tried (above) to send the web page for Wix that gives the particular filters for this tractor but it only brings you to the Wix look-up. I think my neighbor may have gotten the wrong filter for the transmission. He got the 57088 filter but he has the Hydro transmission. ....
Link:
Click Here
 
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL Pics |
2006-12-20 138215
Oneace, Sorry I was trying to make him feel better. I am sure the NH is better than a 45 year old design. Like EW said maybe 1.5 hours max for the NH.
Yes I had to dismantle the front end of the tractor and remove the front and lower end of the motor to get the gear pieces out of the pan. About 10 hours of work. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
oneace
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1490 south central pa Pics |
2006-12-20 138225
I was not implying that the NH job was a big one. I referring that your Massey job was. The Nh Pump Is a breeze. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia Pics |
2006-12-20 138226
I used a NAPA or Wix filter on my 600 (which was really 700) hour trans/hydro change, and it worked fine.
Then, my TC29 is a standard transmission.
Not sure about the different weight hydro fluid, is it noticeably different thickness than the original fluid?
Good luck,
Bill ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-20 138228
Where the heck ya been Bill? I haven't seen you post in a while. I thought I was the only one lurking around on here.
The oil he put in is 10-20 weight; don't ask me what brand. The F200 (which NH also recommends)I have in mine is 5-20 weight. I don't know what weight the NH 134 hydro oil is that comes with the unit.
I double checked that filter he put on thinking it was the wrong Wix filter but it actually is the filter Wix recommends for that purpose.
He called me briefly today. While home for lunch, he and another neighbor loosened some of the hydraulic lines on the diverter and there was no fluid coming out. Several people he's asked about it seem to think there's air in the line and it's just locked up. One thing I neglected to mention on here is that right after we changed the fluid and he put the old filter back on, he tried the bucket and it would creep up slowly a few inches off the ground. After a few tries it wouldn't do anything. I'm just trying to provide some clues here. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-20 138233
Like I mentioned it only takes a second to wipe out a pump. You said no fluid came out and that leads me to think the pump was not creating a suction and a resultant volume of oil. No suction, no flow. No sealing of gears to side plates, no suction. That little bit of motion you saw in the FEL was like the last gasp of life left in the pump--IMHO. Also, air doesn't "build up" in a modern hydraulic system with an open-center system---fluid is always circulating through the pump and filter and reservoir (not always in that order) albeit with some backpressure due to fittings, restrictive passages, etc.--the only time it's under pressure is when you move a control which diverts the fluid to a hyd. cylinder. Then and only then can you have air in the cylinder. In some cases since air molecules are smaller than oil, it will self-bleed. Some cylinders are made to self-bleed when they are fully extended (not necessarily on tractors). Even a hydraulic motor which is identical to a hydraulic pump, will not allow air to build up--it passes right through. AND hydraulic motors are susceptible to running dry too and can be wiped out just as easily.
For sake of argument, if the pump IS wiped out, it's not a matter of semantics to (incorrectly) say there's air in the lines---that implies the pump is "good" and can make pressure like an air compressor. Not so. It's the lack of oil in the lines that says the pump is bad, not vice versa.
Disclaimer: All things being equal---there is not some sort of anomally like a mouse nest in the suction line. Air in the lines can also manifest as aerated oil which is usually caused by a caviating pump due to low reservoir level and sucking air, or overworking the fluid and getting it hot which can be done by forcing the oil into bypass, or simply normal but continuous operation as the oil winds and squirts its way past the control spools.
But I'm jis' sayin' :) ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-21 138237
The neighbor and someone supposedly familiar with hydraulics took the pump apart and according to them it looked OK. The neighbor is leaning towards the fluid being too heavy so I may be picking up some F200 for him tomorrow. As I said, he used 10-20 weight fluid compared to my 5-20 weight. I don't see where that would be a big difference but I don't know. They seem to think there was a significant difference in viscosity between what he drained out and what he put in. He wants to change the fluid, the filters and see what happens. Despite feeling bad for the neighbor's predicament I enjoy a good mystery and everyone's thoughts on the cause of the problem. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-21 138238
Ah, y-e-z, the p-l-o-t thi-c-k-ens.
tehehe Can you ask the neighbor for tomorrow's lotto number for me too?
....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-21 138241
Is that your way of saying you still think it's the pump?
....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-21 138245
Yup.
Based on the facts as presented here anyway. Like anything else in life, leave out a seemingly unimportant detail and that can sometimes change everything. As far as "looking" at a pump, that is like saying I checked my tire air pressure by looking at the way it bulges on the bottom---but, oh yeah, it was up on jacks. You can't "look" at a pump--it's gotta be pressure tested--to be sure. If the pump was marginal to begin with from the get-go, or was run out of oil in the past, or simply was its time to go it could be a mere coincidence that it wiped out when the filter was replaced--likely no, possible yes. I've replaced many a pump I'm embarassed to say due to my stupidity (git-R-done), or by accident like a piece of re-rod pulling off a hose or damaging the reservoir tank and leaking fluid. DOH! So now all my stuff has snaps and wing nuts for easy on/off (jis' kiddin' :) ) ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia Pics |
2006-12-21 138249
Wish I could help more, but would be surprised if the hydraulic system was THAT sensitive to fluid viscosity.
As for where I've been: My wife and I had a baby in February, at the same time my Dad was diagnosed with lung cancer. So it has been an up and down year, and I've been very busy. Hardly any time for recreational tractoring.
Good luck,
Bill ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina Pics |
2006-12-21 138251
Sure hope you, your wife, your child and your Dad are all goind great.
....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-21 138254
Sorry to hear about your Dad Bill. I hope his situation improves. Congratulations on the baby. I'm a February baby myself. February babies are the best looking too ;-).
At any rate, it's good to see you on here and I hope you and yours have a great Christmas.
I'll be a bit surprised if it's the oil also but I'm not even a novice on this stuff. The neighbor called me today and rather than buy new lighter weight oil he's going to put the old oil back in just to see what happens. I guess that is better than buying yet more oil not knowing what the outcome will be. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-21 138262
So,,, my neighbor gets home from work and calls me to help him replace the new oil with the old that he had drained out initially, the NH134. We even replaced both filters with the old ones previously taken off. (We weren't taking any chances.) He starts up the tractor, waits a few seconds, pulls back on the loader control and..........the loader goes up in the air. Loader and backhoe work just fine.
The oil that wouldn't work in the tractor was Super Trac Universal Hydraulic Oil. Apparently that slightly heavier oil was enough to cause pressure and blow the gasket on the Wix filter. The SuperTrac claims on it's label to replace several other oils including the NH 134 but apparently it's just too heavy. Whooda thunk? The SuperTrac that he drained out was pretty foamy too. Here I was getting ready to give you the Gold Star EW. Good input by everyone though and both my neighbor and I very much appreciate it. That's what I like about the board, everyone trying to help. I learned just how finicky a machine can be. Wasn't that just like a good whodunit EW? By the way EW, the distributor for the SuperTrac Oil is Smitty's Supply Inc. down there in Roseland, LA. I told my neighbor to stop being so cheap trying to save a few bucks on oil. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL Pics |
2006-12-21 138264
Amen. I did not think enough had leaked out to damage the pump as the reservoir is quite large. Negative pressure on a pump is always a problem although I would not have predicted that that small a change would cause no pressure. I wonder if there is a small air leak on the supply side of the pump. At least you won’t be in the bad books with your friend. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-21 138265
Eggcellent! Thank goodness for disclaimers.
(I'm not a mechanic but I play one on the Web. AND--I've never been wrong. Well...okay, ONCE I was "mistaken".)
IMHO though something else was or did happen to allow that to happen.
I use the SuperTrac in mine here and have had no problems(it's all they sell here in 'dis he-ah paht a 'sippi ---"earl is earl" right?).
In fact when I was still in the nort'ern hinterland it could be -10 F and it still flowed fine (my young nieces love to go tractor riding until their eyes [mine really] tear up from the bitter cold--or until they can't feel their lips). Geez I miss those cold days---NOT!
In the skid steer it uses 10W-30 motor oil for hydraulic fluid. The other day here it was about 26 F and the hydraulics were sluggish for a few minutes.
Also, back home I have used regular hydraulic fluid like the SuperTrac in equipment that spec'd the thinner Ford automatic trans fluid (a backhoe, a huge trencher, and a 40' manlift---all hydraulic or hydrostatic) and have had no problems.
Count yer blessin's boy on the neigh'ba's mochine.
Now I REALLY want those lottery numbers! ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-21 138266
You're exactly right Peters. I was very relieved when the hydraulics worked, almost as much as my neighbor. It just seemed the oil was just heavy enough to not want to flow and caused a lot of pressure. Did the filters also contribute? I don't know.
You always crack me up EW! I laughed at your "Disclaimer" when I read that post. As far as playing a mechanic on the web, you're supposed to add that "You did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!" Actually, as I said, everyone helped by eliminating the possibilities. I got the chance to talk to the infamous Oneace on the phone too, which was good!
One other thing EW, I didn't want to mention it yesterday when you brought up the subject of the lottery but that same neighbor gets lottery tickets every single day. He called me up because he thinks my wife and I are lucky at winning things and asked if I'd go with him to buy some tickets for this special lottery where they only sell so many tickets and the top prize is 1 million dollars. He wanted me to go half on a $20 ticket but I said we could each buy one and if we win we can split it. He had me pay for both tickets as he didn't want to touch the money or the tickets. (He did give me his $20 later) He didn't even want to know the numbers on the tickets because he feels his luck is that bad. He did have one of the same tickets at the house but his wife had accidentally burned it in the trash. (That was the winner) I just thought it ironic you mentioned it at the same time. Maybe you're the one that should be providing numbers. Sorry to ramble. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina Pics |
2006-12-22 138272
Justus,
I am not a mechanic and do not play one on the web, but it would be interesting to take the filter(s) you took off the tractor and cut open to see if it happens to be clogged or failed, either reducing your oil flow.
EW, thought about you last night as some black comedian said NASCAR was a white mans sport...just going round and round in circles and getting no where. Made me think, EW is a NASCAR land leveler! ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-22 138275
Kenny, if I had feelings (sniffle, sniffle) THAT would have hurt.
You never did say if using my method worked for you at your daughter's. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-23 138300
UPDATE: So, my neighbor goes and buys the F200 fluid and we put the new filters back on. One filter being the (new) New Holland transmission filter (Replacing the Wix transmission filter that had blown a gasket) and the other being the Wix hydraulic filter that I have on my own machine that works just fine. He likes to fill his filters with oil before putting them on his equipment (I'd like to know how many do that too). We fill the NH transmission filter up and the oil keeps receding in it the way you'd expect it to until we finally get it filled up. We fill up the WIX filter and it stays full, no receding. He wonders out loud about that. We put the filters on and fill the machine with the F200 oil. By the way, the F200 was noticeably thinner than the Super Trac. He cranks it up,,,no hydraulics. We took the Wix hydro filter off, picked up a NH hydraulic filter, put it on and everything worked fine. So, was it this filter all along? Was it a combination of factors?
Based on this result Ken I think you get the Gold Star.
Now, again, how many of you guys fill your filters, no matter the application, with oil before you put them on your equipment? I had never done that before but he said an old timer told him long ago to do it to keep those few seconds w/o oil from happening. Steve ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa |
2006-12-23 138301
Justis, yes allways fill a filter that hangs from the top, I thought that was just standard practice. Like you say some filters you have to refill two or three times, that is just the time the fluid takes to go thru the paper with no pressure on it. The ones that appear to stay full I think only have fluid on the inside of the paper below the threaded mounting hole and none between the paper and the shell of the filter, and that might be due to a smaller micron size of the paper that just doesn't let the fluid thru without some pressure,not real sure just guessing on that one. Frank. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
earthwrks
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 3853 Home Office in Flat Rock, Michigan Pics |
2006-12-23 138304
I thought it went without saying to always fill up a dry filter?
Remember what british comedian Benny Hill used to say about assuming? "When you ASS-ume---you make a ass of u an' me" :)
Having air in a dry filter or rather a lack of fluid that will cause early demise of a pump if it's on the suction side of the pump. At the very least if it's on the pressure side it will send air bubbles through the system and aerate the reservoir which is not desirable. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL Pics |
2006-12-23 138305
I can not say I always fill the filters, some like the metal one on the JD 750 you can't, but I even try to fill the ones that are side mounted 1/2 full.
It sounds to me like there is something wrong with the filter. What is the hydraulic pressure on the pump? If the pump can not push the oil through the filter then there must not be a hole through to the filter paper in the filter can. If you have 3000 psi differential on the filter paper it will collapse and provide flow. About the maximum you can have is 100 psi.
Don't get rid of that filter. As EW said he may have won the lottery. Wix at least should garantee the tractor transmission for the his life after providing a defective filter. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-23 138307
That's why I'm asking. I've never seen anyone pour oil into a filter that I can remember. I'd venture to say that whether it be the local garage doing one or two oil changes or the local Jiffy Lube doing dozens a day you'd be hard pressed to see someone filling a filter with oil prior to installation. I'll begin to do it myself now, BUT, I still don't believe the majority of people do it.
The filter was given to the neighbor so it's not like he's going to get his money back although I ASSUME he's going to bring it back to tell them about the problem. Also, he plans on selling the tractor. He likes a Kabota that a friend of his has and is leaning towards going orange. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia Pics |
2006-12-26 138353
Thanks for the follow-up.
I always fill my filters as full as I can depending on how they are mounted. It helps cut down on that ugly 2 seconds of valve/lifter clatter on the first start-up after an engine oil change.
Good luck,
Bill ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina Pics |
2006-12-27 138363
Justus, is it possible the WIX filter has an anti flow back valve that requires pressure to open?
EW, I did not end up doing the NASCAR drive myself but it did work. Put another family member in the oval and I moved the dirt for him to level. SORRY, I didn't go in CIRCLES. ;) But the method did work. ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
Justus
Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 179 Justus, Pa. |
2006-12-27 138364
Ken, I could be mistaken but I seem to recall a website that described each of the filters in detail, including valves. "IF" I remember correctly, both the filters in question did not have valves. If I run across the website again I'll give it to you.
My neighbor was talking about bringing the filter back (Don't forget he got it for nothing). If he does and they determine what the problem was I'll be sure to post it. Steve ....
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New Holland TC 33D Hydraulics Problem
bobadame
Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 18 Fort Collins Co. |
2007-01-12 138721
Check to see if you have any oil flow out of the pump. Sounds like a key might have sheared because of a plugged filter. ....
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