Go BottomFarmi vs Fransgard Logging Winch
 | aking50
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 11 maine 
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2003-08-04 60957
I am planning on getting a logging winch with a Kubota 3130 HST with AG tires. I do a mixture of firewood and sawlog harvesting in my woodlot.
In my visits to the dealers I have had discussions on the Fransgard V-2800 or V-4000, and the Farmi JL351P skidding winches.
Anyone had any experience with these? I would also like to know if the 3130 HST is adequate to run them. Thanks, Jim
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2003-08-05 60968
I haven't heard any direct comparisons but Farmi has gotten good play here for a long while.
I also can't directly speak to whether the tractor is big enough. Real helpful today I am. Well, the 3130 is too new a tractor for my favourite specs site so I don't know it's specs, and the answer also depends on the size logs worked. Well, you could throw in the type of terrain as a factor too.
I suspect that weight of the tractor is more important than HP for skidding. If a log outweigh the tractor it can out-muscle it. If the log decides to go downhill, a light tractor goes along with it. Lifting the ends of logs for skidding can put a lot of weight on the 3ph, which lightens the front end. Not really very comfortable when going up hills, and there may be very little steering except for the brakes. These sorts of issues are important when actually skidding logs but there are alternatives such as transfer trailers and skidding arches. Some people use something like a sled to keep the log heads up rather than lift them with the 3ph.
Getting logs to the tractor is another question and I imagine that a winch doesn't take all that much HP. When getting logs to the tractor, it's the butt plate on the winch that keeps the tractor in place and every serious winch should have one.
Don't know what happens to the skidded logs after they're skidded. If it's for firewood, skidded logs are real hard on saw chain. Some people even wash skidded logs before chain sawing them. Other people avoid skidding them by cutting the logs in place. Hope this orientation stuff helps. I live where log skidders are more common than BMW's but that doesn't mean I really know much about it. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-08-05 61003
We sell the Fransgard and Norse. Go the 2800 as the 4000 could give you a little to much pull for that size tractor. ....
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| aking50
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 11 maine
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2003-08-06 61050
I've been using a Ford 8N in the woods for about 25 years for both firewood and sawlogs. I usually get the butts off the ground for dragging and have certainly experienced the light front end when hauling a 20"+ butt uphill - take it slow and drop the load and/or be ready to hit the clutch. I have always run with loaded tires and plan to do the same with the 3130. One of the big appeals with the winch that I'm looking forward to is not having to get as close to the log. The added lift capacity of the 3130's 3 pt hitch should help with larger loads. Logs and dirt is a fact of life, I give the chain light sharpenings often. Jim ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-08-06 61054
I forgot to bring up many people seem to like a floating butt plate. I didn't look to see who builds one in this size but it might only be norse. It allows you to back fill trails when out of hand. Even though you may have a loader on it is a good tool to keep ruts filled in. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-08-06 61055
Sounds like you know this stuff better than I do. But you never know from a first question so I hope the orientation stuff interested others. Art as usual likely was more helpful in relating the size of winch to the tractor. Too much pull would allow moving large logs that could decide where the tractor would go rather than the other way around. As I'm sure you know, logs do get hung up or decide to go further down a hill.
Bringing logs to the tractor sure is an advantage. There's still a team of skidding horses in my neighbourhood. A few people with fairly small lots who don't want to chop more skidder trails into their bush use the team for the same purpose. I suppose when the horses or the owner (who's around 80), retires a few tractor winches will be sold around here.
It's also tempting to use a winch to cure 'hangers,' but as you likely know that is a very specialized buz for logs of any size. Old threads in the archives with posts by Stumper have a lot of discussion. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-08-06 61072
Actually Tom from experience (as an observer, not a culprit) I have noticed that the problem with a skidding winch that is too big for the tractor is not usually from tackling too big a log.
The problem with over-sizing an implement is two-fold, first every pound your implement weighs more than is necessary to do the job, is a pound less 'payload' you can lift/carry. Secondly, with winches especially, the bigger you go the more likely you are to put excessive loads on the 3pth when a butt digs in or sticks, possibly to the point of breaking something.
IMHO, you still can't beat a well-trained team of horses, even my new 'Bota takes a rest in favour of my Belgians for firewood or maple syrup season.
Best of luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-08-07 61118
Yeah Murf I believe you're right. I was locked into the idea that a log is capable of out-muscling a tractor and was probably fitting my illustration to that idea. I think it's a good idea to think about but breaking something is probably the greater risk.
My 3ph forklift does have exactly the problems you mention. It weighs about 650 lbs. and I probably could move more weight if the forklift was lighter. It's probably actually a CAT II implement. It can lift more then the 3ph can so I can move big weight around with the 3ph in neutral, a lot of weight in the loader and going very slowly. A unit better matched to the tractor would be better but I couldn't find one. I'd much rather have this forklift than no forklift.
I forgot that you have Belgians. Sort of nice way to work in the woods I think. I used to rail about all the skidder trails around here that are seldom built properly and end up turning to eroded washes. I eventually realized that I use these trails all the time and that I wouldn't be in the bush near as often without them. I moderated my views a bit, but horses still tear up the bush much less. I think there is a skidder horse association in the States that will try to match people who want to minimize logging impact on private lots with people who have teams.
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-08-07 61121
Murf, in this area we have a lot of what is called, I guess it is State land, hundreds of thousands of acres, and it is forested for the most part. They do sell much of it off but there are often restrictions as to the type of harvest and the amount. They sell the hard wood for firewood as well as logs and the pine for lumber. In some areas they do restrict the size of equipment. We are not in the adirondack reserve, thank the Lord, they are questioning as to how to fix an area that they have found the water not to meet state standards and they are questioning drilling for the 30 homes. Don't let you government own to much property! Back to the main issue here, you should never use a winch that is close to the size or weight if the tractor. Could you imagine pulling on the rope to bring the log in while standing back a little and not notice that the tractor was coming back at you until it is on you! The only other thing that I've listened to from the owners of these winches is that it is harder to rebuild the clutches on the Farmi. ....
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 | dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine 
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2003-08-07 61132
Jim, Where abouts are ya. I'm in Franklin. I have a V4000 for my JD4700 and if the log gets snubbed up the winch will pull that tractor around like a toy. I have had good luck with the Fransgurd, it's build very robust.
David ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2003-08-07 61157
We have a large amount of publicly owned land around here also, here it is reffered to as "Crown Land" since it is held in the name of the Crown with differing levels of government administering it, Federal, Provincial, and Regionally.
There is an ongoing program of public access and development, read logging, and the method of access varies widely depending on where it is. Remote areas are still mostly logged by mechanical means, mostly for economics, but also because as Tom alluded to, it leaves the gov. with a nice set of access trails for fire-fighting, etc. In areas more 'visible' or environmentally sensitive, there are in some cases sever restrictons, I did some consulting work last year and the biologists deemed the area so sensitive they were only permitted to fly the logs out by helicopter, not even horse logging was permitted.
We have started doing a lot of work for the telephone and hydro people, especially in cottage country where people really don't want a 20,000 lb. tracked vehicle in their 'backyard' just to replace a pole or two. We can do the work for a lot less than a helicopter crew and the residents enjoy watching the team work. The horses really seem to like working somewhere thay go for a swim afterwards too.
Best of luck. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2003-08-07 61166
I've heard of the helicopter logging I just can't remember if it was in print or just discussion. Here we have the Adirondacks that is protected to much and if it got started on fire on the right year it would not be able to be put out until it got the people in NY that think that it is supposed to be that way. Then we have other that is more open and is and could be fire protected. We are not blessed with Washington turf in this area as NY has enough government for two states, probably enough for all the states but we need to leave some for California as we trained them before they moved out there! ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-08-08 61206
Like is often the case, it seems to me that everybody is saying much the same thing--and the right thing too. It's good if winches and any implement for that matter is matched to the tractor. I think there's potential for any winch to break a tractor or for it or a log to move the tractor around. An oversized winch just increases the potential. I think operating winches takes a special set of skills and it's good to be aware of potential for both safety hazards and breakage. I'd also keep in mind that commercial logging is about the most hazardous of any occupation. ....
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| aking50
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 11 maine
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2003-08-08 61221
Dave, I'm west of Augusta. I appreciate all the comments that you have all given. However, I am amazed at how the discussion moved into helicopter logging and beyond. I guess the bottom line is that either manufacture has good winches, size the winch to the tractor, and that you have to always be alert/cautious when using this equipment. Thanks, Jim ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-08-09 61334
The subjects often do wonder around quite a bit and what I almost posted yesterday was a short version of what would have taken this one into the much further beyond. I'm a usual culprit here.
It'd be good if you or anybody else gives a shout if they aren't getting what they need to hear from a discussion. I've never known anybody here to get cranky if their 'expanded content' isn't accepted 'gratefully.' Sometimes such comments will trigger a bit of research that then is available to everybody. These things work both ways. People with questions and people who make responses all have to get something out of it. Roles switch and we all have something to contribute and something to learn too.
So, the first I heard of helicopter logging was around Tahoe, CA. I suppose I understand why. The only sort of relevant thought I have is that helicopter logging would sure tell you in a hurry if a winch had too much pull.
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| kubota4330
Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2 ny
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2008-11-02 157626
hi- i have a kubota 4330-43 hp hydo and i borrowed the farmi this weekend-a real time saver-alittle under power but this model is rated for the smaller tractor-i would suggest u dig alittle deeper on the 30 hp model there alittle under power and if you want a bigger loader you cant put it on that model-but there still a awesome machine just alittle small for a good size log or two- go orange there the best ....
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