Go BottomPulling small Trees out with 3point
 | Rick
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2002-02-07 35358
Some where I read about a guy who made a thing for his 3 point to pull small trees out. He even had a drawing of it and now I don't know where I seen It . Has anyone else seen this
Thanks
Rick
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-02-07 35373
Rick, I would like to see this as well. I usually just wrap a chain around small trees, posts, etc. Of course, I don't make a habit out of pulling trees out the ground. Just dead ones. ....
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 | dsg
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 528 Franklin, Maine 
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2002-02-08 35413
Rick,
Pulling out trees should never be done with the rear of a tractor, good way of doing a dangerous wheely.
David ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2002-02-09 35422
I've a slight qualification for David's comment. I think it depends if the tow point is the 3ph (which is the original question) or the drawbar. I believe most safety stuff says that the drawbar is the only point designed for towing. Towing from the 3ph does risk a wheely.
3ph's were invented to reduce tractor overturns, but they depend on implements designed to rotate on their lower link pins to produce compression in the top-link. Simply pulling from the lower links is done all the time, but operators should be aware of the risks taken.
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-02-09 35425
As stated pulling using only the bottom two links is dangerous.
I have a 2 pt draw bar and use it a light pup trailer created from a 1920's pickup bed, but I can easily move the trailer loaded by hand even when loaded. I like the 3 point arrangement for this as it has a pin hitch and I can dump the trailer by raising the 3 pt.
Heavier loads should be done using the draw bar or a 3 pt arrangement. I think the main problem with the 3 pt draw bar is that you are moving the weight application point back away from the tractor and depending on the 3 pt hitch setting up from below the center of gravity. The only 3 pt system I have seen costs $200. The main advantage is the hook up time.
I am at this point uncertain if this creates a real problem for an experience tractor operator. We have done somethings with a 3 pt and a goose neck hitch that in theory should cause problems. With the larger tractors and extra weight used to date this does not seem to be a problem and a real time saver on the farm. ....
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-02-09 35431
I am not certain as to the dangers being described here. Can someone sum it up a bit for me. When I pull t-posts out of the ground I use only the the bottom links of my 3pt. If the task is too great for my hitch, a valve opens and fluid begins to cycle. The front end of the tractor does not lift up. My hitch on my JD650 is only rated for about 1,000 lbs. I am upgrading to a larger machine (hopefully, on Monday (JD4400)). I think I am understanding that a hookup involving all three points is safer? ....
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| tgello
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 16 litchfield,ct
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2002-02-09 35436
i am a little baffled with the pulling trees out of the ground with a chain? is it to rip them out and dispose of them or up root them and replant them elswhere? if the latter i would use a tree spade, for the sake of the tree. or a shovel and some back. to rip them out with a chain can get a little dangerous if the chain slips off while you on the throttle. if you do use a chain ,take a second chain and lay it over the pulling chain so if it slips the second chain will lesson the recoil of the pulling chain. tgello ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-02-09 35437
There is some confusion here. If you are static and just lifting with the three point hitch then there really is no problem. If you are careful and the front end lifts a little then you can let it down again.
The problem arises if you use the 3 pt to connect and then use the tractor to pull.
Back tracking, the three point hitch was developed for inplements and primarily the bottom plow. The problem was that farmers were used to horses and just breaking a harness or stopping the horses when they struck a root, rock or other immovable object. With a tractor and a draw bar, farmers would hit the root etc. and the tractor would walk up and over killing him underneath it. The action is very fast and unless he instantaniously jumped on the clutch he did not have a chance.
If you have ever had a tractor do this unexpectedly it is a unpleasent experience.
When drawing equipment forces from the lower arms are below the rear axel's center line. The links pivot allowing a portion of the load to be transfered to the upper link. The upper link is much higher than the center point of the rear axel. The pulling load on the arms is then transferred to the upper link placing it in compression. This force is the applied to push the front down as the tractor pulls the implement forward.
The danger is when you use just the lower links to pull. As the highth is adjustable one can place the links above the center line of the rear axel. The forces applied then increase the lifting force on the front end and increase the likelihood of the tractor walking over.
Unfortunately in todays age there are a lot of attachments that are using the 3 pt for more than tillage implements and the forces on the tractor are not as initially intended.
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| Mrwurm
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 184 South East Michigan
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2002-02-09 35440
To be more specific, I will try to explain what I have done in the past. I have planted many trees on my property over the past 5 years. Some trees just did'nt make it. Some had fireblight. I hand dig around these tress the best I can, then I use the 3pt lower arms and a chain to lift the tree out of the hole and break the remaining roots that I can't get to with a shovel. I do this while standing next to the tractor. The tractor is in neutral and parking break set. I use the same procedure to pull out t-posts. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-02-10 35443
Good that Peters noticed that we may have been talking about two different operations--lifting small trees out of partially dug holes and a variation of stump pulling.
Pulling up with the 3ph is much like carrying a load. There are some safety issues, but they are mostly related to moving heavy loads. Weight on the 3ph lightens the front, which can result in reduced front wheel drive traction and steering. A load shift or a bump can cause steering and traction to go from marginal to nothing at exactly the wrong time. I frequently put weight in the loader to balance a heavy 3ph load and ensure adequate steering and traction.
Draft load is another question, and Peters described how I understand it. Basically, if you drop an anchor off the back of a truck, it just hits the end of the line and spins it's tires. Tractors have weight distributions that favour the rear and they also have high traction rear tires. Anchor a tractor and it can climb its own wheels rather than spin them.
With a 3ph, the backward rotation of a pulled ground engaging implements is transferred by the top-line to a point above the axles, which places more load on the front end. It's sort of a cantilever action. Many implements such as 3ph drawbars are not designed to produce appreciable top-link compression and are at least conceptually less safe. However, most things moved with a 3ph drawbar aren't going to stop a tractor like a plow hitting a root either, and such devices are commonly used. It's good to understand the safety issues though.
If such things are used, it's best to keep the 3ph low. If the hitch is up, I think that part of the draft load is transferred through the lift arms to the rocker shaft. The rocker shaft is above the axles and load there would serve to lift the front. However, this is starting to be more 'visualizing geometry' for me so I'll stop.
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| BillBass
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 190 North Texas
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2002-02-10 35452
Rick-I think I remember what you are talking about. Someone posted an actual picture of an implement he had made. It had teeth (something like a sickle except longer narrower teeth). It attached to the 3ph. You could back up to a small tree and wedge it in the teeth and then lift it out of the ground. I don't remember if it was here or one of the other tractor sites though. I seem to remember it being made out of sq tube with heavy reinforced plate steel for the teeth. ....
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| Rick
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-02-10 35463
Yep That's it Bill!!!!!! I realy wasn't worried about doing wheel Stands but I should have said saplings instead of trees ... But thats it Bill and maybe I did see it on another site !
Thanks Bill And all That Replied ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-02-11 35486
Nope it was here, it's called a Brush Brute. They are fantastic at removing any kind of woody plant less than about 4' in diameter. ....
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| DuaneinNY
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-02-11 35490
I think this may be what you are thinking of. I copied the picture from another forum a couple of months ago because it looked like something that would work. I have put it at the picture/image URL below this reply. I have never posted to this, so I'm not sure it will work.
Duane ....
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| Rick
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-02-11 35498
Thanks Guys That's what I'm looking for. Anyone know where I can Get one !!!!!!!? ....
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| DuaneinNY
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-02-11 35501
Rick,
The guy made it himself. It's another compact tractor forum and I'll try to put the URL below. If you know of someone who welds, you could take the picture to him and see what he can do. That's what others have in mind, including myself.
Duane ....
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| Paul Chase
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-02-13 35570
I'm making one this winter, will have to wait until Spring to use it though.
P.C. ....
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| Red
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-04-27 37878
hey there folks...
I've been reading in this board for a few days and came across this Medievel Looking thing! It looks like it will do just the thing for me and am wondering if anyone has any specs on it. I talked to a fabricator friend of mine and we are planning on putting one together but if any of you can give me some insight as to size of stock and stuff I'd really appreciate it... We're thinking of going with 1/2 inch box and then welding the teeth to it in pices... anyone have a better plan? or like I said earlier any dimensions and such that I could use to get started... thanks in advance for your time ....
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| John Mc
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 98 Vermont
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2002-04-28 37922
Here's some text that goes with the picture DuaneinNY posted on 2-11-02 (I copied it from the same place he got the picture):
The crossbar and the upright for the top link are made from 2X3X1/2 wall tubing.
The fingers are 15 inches total length (that leaves 12 inches protruding from the crossbar) and are made of1/2X3 flatbar.
I left 1/2 inch in the center of each finger and tapered them back 11 inches. Each finger has a piece of 3/8X2 flatbar welded edge ways and welded to the crossbar to prevent the fingers from bending.
____________
John Mc ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-04-29 37930
I'd be interested in hearing some experience from folks who have used this type of device.
I keep thinking that a decent sized sapling is pretty difficult to pull straight out of the ground. I wonder have often the 3ph's stall rather than lift? I also wonder how far the jaws have to be set into the wood for a 3ph to lift to its max power without the jaws slipping up the trunk? Alternatively, I think a tractor may have to be backed into a sizable sapling pretty hard to get the jaws sunk enough. I wonder how often attempts to sink the jaws breaks off a sapling so it won't pull at all?
Much of the potential work for such a device around here would be pine or spruce saplings that have sizable limbs to the ground. I wonder how it is working through limbs and how easily the saplings are to remove from the tractor after pulling.
Just things to think about. I seem to recall a similar single jawed device with hydraulics. I think it was supposed to snip off saplings rather than pull them. I sort of wonder about that one too. Full of wonder today I guess. Maybe my wife will tell me I'm wonderful.
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 | BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2002-04-29 37938
I started to make my own version of this brush getter after seeing the picture; I had finished the frame that mounts to the 3ph and started making the teeth, when I ended up using the 3ph frame to convert a pull-behind disc harrow to a 3ph set-up. Now I'm wondering if it would be easier to make an attachment to bolt or pin onto a back-blade to get brush with. That has been my method up till now, just using the back blade, and occasionally I can't get under a root and just end up bending the brush over without uprooting it. With teeth on the blade, it should stick. Any comments?
Bill ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-04-29 37942
Without getting into the morals of copying the design of a patented product I have a couple of comments/suggestions that might make life easier. First of all, mounting such a device on the 3 pth is not a great idea unless you have a really good hard-hat. When you lift anything with the 3pth the geometry causes it to tip in towards the operator (a hydraulic upper link will help cancel this effect) and the taller the lifted item the more pronounced the effect. Secondly, mounting a "Brush Brute" (or rip-off therof) in place of the bucket on a FEL means you can curl under and dump it off easily, how do you get a 'stuck' tree to fall uphill off the 3pth? Finallythe design, construction and material of the original would be hard to duplicate and any small deviation would be a real detriment to it's performance. Bottom line, don't try to re-invent the wheel....Best of luck. ....
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