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Synthetic Oil vs Petroleum and Filter Quality

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stinkr
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1999-12-06          10697

I recently was told that I should be using a special oil in my diesel tractor. The guys at the local farm store told me Shell Rotella SB 10W-30 was it. Anyone know if this is correct or is there a better choice? Also does anyone have experience with fuel additives such as Essentialube (made by Hydrotex)which are supposed to reduce the formation of sulfuric acid by combustion. Thanks

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Bill
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1999-12-06          10699

Stinkr,
Well, if I were you, first off I would follow the SAE viscosity grade called out by your manual. Secondly I would follow the CF2, CF4 CG4 or what ever is listed in your manual. Then I would find a quality synthetic which meets both of those requirerments, along with the correct oil filter in a good quality. Personnaly I have switched all lubes in my tractor to Amsoil. I used Shell Rotella in my F250 7.3 liter deisel, and IMHO did not like it, even though I was changing every 2500 miles. Was the only CF2 at the time that I could find. Would not use it or recommend it. Email me if you would like to know more.
Bill
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greg h
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1999-12-07          10704

for what its worth i use MOBIL DELVAC 1 synthetic oil year round. It is more expensive than conventional oil but it has many qualities such as good cold weather flow. One thing to consider is never try to exceed the manu.hours requirements on oil changes on tractors. The dirty conditions under which they operate makes frequent oil changes mandatory. Do alittle investigating about synthetics from amsoil and mobil. You might just find yourself like myself and feel quilty not providing you equ. with the best. Also bear in mind most of us dont use our tractor enough for the cost to negate the benefits.
Just my 2 cents
Greg h ....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-07          10714

I'm not convinced that any oil is much better than another as long as they meet the same ratings. I think oil preferences are more religion than science. Be sure to check your owner's manual against the ASTM rating on the oil can and change oil more often than not. For what it's worth department: none of my tractors recommend a synthetic oil in the manual. I would be tempted to try synthetic in the combined transmission/hydraulic system if I didn't already use John Deere Hy-gard....which I do....and it has decent flow at low temperatures, as well as lots of history to back it up - particularly as regards the interaction with seals. I do wish that some manufacturers would test synthetics and recommend them. Maybe the newer tractors do this. Mine are older.
As for engine oil, I'll stick with Shell Rotella in the appropriate multigrade weight. My motors seems to like it and it is recommended by many over-the-road truckers. My experience with it has been good. For filters I use the manufacturer's own filters....although I not above disassembling one to make sure that I agree with the construction method.
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Bird Senter
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1999-12-07          10724

Roger, you're probably right about the oils. There was been much discussion on other boards about this topic. And other than personal choice, everything I've been able to find about synthetics, comes to the conclusion that they are the thing to use if you are talking about Alaska in the winter (or a similar extremely cold climate). Otherwise, they are a waste of money. Of course, as someone else mentioned above, you may not use enough for that to be a big consideration. I'm in central Texas in an area where there are a lot of real farmers using a variety of equipment, and so far everyone I've asked either uses Shell Rotella or Chevron Delo 400. ....

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mario
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1999-12-07          10738


I thought rotela is synthetic oil. I have used the delvac and it is much better in our winter climate at getting to work sooner. With regular staight weight oils I would not get the thing to turn over at all never mind start. Our winter coldest temps are -10 - -20 degrees F. Delvac allows me to start the thing without a block heater and get to work in short order. I would not go back to standard oils unless I moved down south.

Have many of you folks tried to pour oil out of the container at - 20 F. It is a real eye opener. Most 30W straight grades turns to grease.

Happy tractoring. ....

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Nuclear_Weapon7
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1999-12-08          10743

How do you test oil to see if it is ok ? Without going to any laboratory. My Massey Ferguson dealer who also sells oil from the company that manufactures Massey tractors told me that one simple test was to put 1 or 2 drops of oil on your index finger and rub gently with your thumb. You should not feel your fingerprints. Many oils fail that test and many oils clear that hurdle. Any opinions ?
Nuclear_Weapon7.
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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-08          10760

Ya had to bring up the oil thing..My advise would be to ask for comparative experiences rather than "OPINIONS". In an effort to be different..I won't tell you my opinion. Rather I'll tell you a story, one of many actual experiences, of which I've accumulated over +230,000 miles using Synthetics over Petroleum products. After which, you generate an opinion of your own:..My 1990' Acura w/Petro achieved an average of 29MPG over a period of 15K Mile Manu'f recommended oil changes(7,500x2). I average 11 Gallons per fill-up in that car (for some unknown reason) or about 40-50 fuel purchases in which I ALWAYS calculate MPG, even today..This morning as a matter of fact. After converting to Synthetics at 85k miles on the ODO, I yielded a consistant 2 MPG increase over the next 15K miles. Performing a little math for annual costs..Averaging 30K Miles a year, 29MPG=1,035 Gallons of gas per year, 2MPG increase, or 31MPG requires 968 Gallons. At a conservative price of $1.25 for regular unleaded gas, Petro yields=$1,293.75, Synthetics yield=$1,210.00..a saving of "Approximately" $83.75 in reduced fuel costs PER YEAR..(Actual saving are higher, but messes up the story) "All" Premium Synthetics offer extended drain intervals, One of which is AMSOIL (My Preference), offering 25k or 1 year intervals. Out of personal convenience (spring/fall), I change oil conservatively at 10K miles less than what AMSOIL state, equalling 15K mile intervals. At $4.95 a quart plus $8 AMSOIL HD filter, an oil change costs me $32.75 or $65.50 a year. The El CHEAPO Petroleum oil (which I never used anyway) probably costs $.95 per quart, and a FRAM filter used to cost about $5-$5.75. WOW..A $10 oil change!! NOW, lets compare these two "actual" situations. Petroleum should be changed at Acura's recommended 7,500 mile interval, averaging $40 a year in oil changes, Lets forget the 4 per year "under car sessions". Synthetics, cost $65.50 in materials, but saved me $83.75 in fuel. A saving of $20, and $60 over petroleum. If you change oil every 3K miles, Your "under car sessions increase to 5, and oil costs increase to $50 a year. We should also compare winter starts, time till operating oil pressure is achieved, Sludge build up, ect... Sorry, I tried to hold it in.. "REMEMBER FOLKS..Synthetics are a waste of money, because all oils are the same...." ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-08          10763

After stepping off the salt box,I forgot about your question of "special" oil.
As others indicated, I would also assume it is in reference to the oil having a CF/CG rating. Of which many oils do not carry. If nothing else, use what the manual recommends. You can't go wrong if you follow the Manu'f minimum recommedations. Thats my 2 cents. ....

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Peter
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1999-12-08          10766

I think the most important thing you can do to a lubrication system is to frequently change the fluid. I use either Shell rotella, or Dreyden(Now Castrol) Dieselall. I try to cut the change interval in half of what the manf recommends, depending on the type of use I've been doing. I also make sure to pour some oil into the filter at time of change to prevent the time that the oil pump is filling the filter, rather than pushing it to the bearing. I figure the added cost of the extra changes is well worth the down time of engine work. A week or two of no tractor can add up to serious lost revenue if you had work scheduled!! ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-08          10774

Peter mentions two excellent points.. One is to fill the oil filter with oil before installation. The other point is potential loss of revenue and machine costs related to poor maintainance practices. The only way to avoid guessing..like most everyone does. Spend the money on oil analysis kits ($10)
This will tell you exactly where your oil stands,and more importantly it can tell you of premature wear of bearings and such. Don't be shocked if you hear about rigs that have gone more than 100,000 miles without a fluid change. naturally filters were replaced as needed. Best part..when those rigs are torn down at 500,000 miles or more.. Internal parts look identical to an engine changed at regular intervals... Course one can't help but ask "why do manu'f recommend such low intervals" The answer is relatively simple..it compensates for the guy who runs a .75 cent filter and .49 cent oil. besides...it doesn't cost them a dime to state this recommendation, and it adds a layer of warranty security...If you stick to the facts, and you save your feelings and emotions for your wife..you can't go wrong.. :) ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-08          10785

Mario, you say you thought the Shell Rotella was a synthetic. Yes, the Rotella SB (synthetic blend) is, but Shell also makes Rotella T that is not synthetic (and that's the one folks I know use). You can learn more about them by checking out http://www.shell-lubricants.com ....

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mike t.
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1999-12-08          10786

Crap! Tried that pre-filling the filter thing on my JD 870. Now I got oil all over the shop floor. Maybe because the filter screws onto the SIDE OF THE BLOCK. Won't work for most tractors I bet?? ....

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Greg h
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1999-12-09          10788

This is for mike t. you are right it does make a mess but if you pour out the excess it still preloads the hightly absorbant filter element and prevents the couple of seconds of dry running experienced at startup on new oil change. Just take a minute and try it both ways and listen to the engine rattle longer and harder when you dont preload the filter. the mess is worth the trouble.
Also the doubters who dont believe there is any difference in oils probably believe WRESTLING is real the the MOON SHOT was fake. Making things better thru chemistry has been within our reach for years. Improved lubricity and adding fewer friction and viscocity midifiers means more oil per quart and fewer
polymers(a form of plastics.)
One other thing, in farm and construction equ and other that work in dirty environments never for any reason go to extended oil change intervals because of the dust and dirt that somehow get by the best of filters, not even good synthetic oil can negate the abrasive effects of dirt and dust.
Again just my 2 cents,but have used synthetics for years and would never go back .Greg H ....

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Greg B
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1999-12-09          10790

Hey folks,

I don't know how much oil your little compact tractors take on an oil change, but keep in mind that most heavy diesel engines (300-400 hp) in tractor-trailers hold around 8 gallons (yes GALLONS) of engine oil. Obviously, this increases the oil change intervals. My point is that the comparison between the compact tractors and big diesels may not be the best way to determine what is best for the compacts.

Greg B ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-09          10791

I'll be quick, cause I'm sure everyone's tired of me by now. As far as pre-filling the oil filter...Your right. If you try to fill it to the rim with oil, you'll have a mess. I don't know how others do things. BUT, if you fill it to the top, let it sit for a few minutes while you clean up a bit, put the drain plug in, ect... I've even pre-filled the oil filter the night before, while I drained the oil..Doing things this way, the oil will absorb into the filter element. To avoid a mess, I only fill it to the point where the element will no longer absorb oil. I find the filter will hold 1/2 maybe 2/3 of its capacity such that you could turn the filter upside down with a drip. OMO, but I have always "felt" that if the element is already soaked, things start flowing sooner. To me..its a small thing that might make a difference.. ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-09          10793

Greg,
Regarding your statement/recommendation to never extend drain intervals on farm & contruction equipment...Is this a proven fact or Theory? Maybe something you heard the "guys" talk about during a cup of coffee? If its proven, I would like to know where I could find that analysis info. We have quite a few business's and people (including myself) who need to be warned.. Especially those guys down at Essroc Quarry. ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-09          10802

Scott, I think we are all in love with our tractors, might be our biggest problem. Heck..of all the places to go on the internet..we end up here..
As for the main topic posted: I've changed my mind....Stinkr, ONLY use petroleum oil which follows specifications stated in your manual, including the HR interval stated between oil changes. Hey Bo. save me a seat..I'm not say'n a word either... ....

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Bill
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1999-12-09          10806

Well MLS I see that I started a real family feud in this beloved board. I guess everyone should use what ever they want, because no amount of facts, including used oil analysis facts, are gonna change some of these boys minds. We can talk til we are blue in the face, or one of us is 6 feet south. I know what I know, and you know what you know, to be true. Truth is something which you have seen enough evidence to believe that it is not otherwise. What the other boys wanna believe is their business. We are just trying to pass on some useful info, at this point, useful to us only, it seems. We try to help, but to no good. All I can say more, is Try It. If you don't like it switch to another oil. But you, like I, have seen synthetic benefits, as well as the benefit of tracking how much iron, soot, or coolant, or raw fuel and the like can show about the guts of an engine, and what needs to be repaired, LONG BEFORE THE PROBLEM IS BIG. Yes frequent changes can extend the life of a machine ( can mask problems too), however the correct filtration, including something that I have been using for a long time on my F250 Diesel, which is call a by pass filter, which cleans the oil of damaging particles into the submicron range, will surely clear the oil of the dirt from construction or a farm. Boys, particles that cause damage in an engine are between 10 and 20 micron, on average. Particles smaller don't matter much because of the oil film created by a quality oil, larger, they either can't get in or are taken out even by those cheep Fram filters. Heck boys, did you forget where that crude comes from? You really don't think it comes that clean from the GROUND, in, through, and around all that DIRT do you???? It ends up going through filters sometime in the process. Bird S., living in Texas, and possibly havin someone who works for some Oil Company, you should be able to answer that. continued next post.....
Bill ....

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Bill
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1999-12-09          10808

Propeganda is a wonderful thing. But someday something will come back to haunt you. Oil companys have been doing it for years. Oil was cheep, seemingly inexhaustable in supply, and the more you changed the oil, the more they pumped. Called profit. We now have the technology to basically refine the oil in our engine, not just coming from the ground. YES I rubbed the oil between my fingers when I was using Rotella. The grit was unbelievable. I still do it, as old habits die hard, even though I do analysis. I feel the grit anymore. The oil doesn't feel pasty anymore either. And I have run the oil for 5 years before a change. Filters, yes, oil NO. I am planning on the same thing tor the tractor. From what I can see with my pickup in 7 years, I will get at least 40-50 years out of my new love. That is my aim anyway. Maybe you boys wanna spend thousands every 10 years for new paint, but I wanna see how long I can make it last. From PAST experience, with cars and plant maintenance, it ain't gonna happen with petroleum. Varnish build up will clog anything. That is where synthetic shines. Along with the fact that it clings well to parts. Oh yeah fellas, when I did those frequent changes with petro, my engine rattled like heck after a change, even though I fill the filter too. Want a test?? Notice what your engine sounds like on a previose petro change. Change to synthetic, even if you let it sit overnight, which by the way I don't do, nor did I do with the petro either, the next change after the first time you put synthetic in, listen to the engine at start up. My 250 doesn't sound any different before the pressure is up than after. I know what you are gonna say fellas, but it is much quieter than with the petro, and I got lots more miles now. NOW think of every morning that you start that engine, when even it is only down to 20F. I think that the Bird doesn't know what heat can do either, but I ain't gonna say another word either. Ya'll fight about it. I gonna do what feel right for me! Today was a long day, and it ain't over yet! This is my two cents worth. Take it for what it's worth. Opinions are like butt holes, everyone has one. Experience is priceless.
Bill ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-09          10812

Thanks Bill, Couldn't of said it better myself...Which is obvious from my last 10 postings in this darned subject..They say ya can't teach an old dog new tricks..Seems to fit this everlasting topic fairly well. My Brother-in-law is a die hard Valvoline man, because thats what his father used...He's witnessed the "results" of superior products time n' time n' time again, yet he sticks to his old ways...Oh well, its his money! mls

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-09          10813

Yep, Bill, like you said, opinions are cheap and experience priceless. My experiences have included growing up working in my father's service stations and auto parts store as a teenager (boy, have things changed), then later in life a part of my responbilities included fleet management for police vehicles in Dallas and I used to be a member of the National Association of Fleet Administrators (what did you say about heat? Try running your vehicles 24 hours a day in Dallas in the summer if you'd like to learn about heat.) And for many years my main hobby was recreational vehicles, during which time I've had one pickup camper, two travel trailers, one fifth-wheel trailer, and two motorhomes (one at a time, of course). The engines to move those things work under a pretty good load all the time. Now I am convinced (don't know that I could prove I'm right) that synthetics are best, and the best way to determine frequency of changes is with a laboratory analysis, and for fleet operations, that's what I'd recommend. However, I am NOT convinced that they are cost effective for most people, myself included. So I still use petroleum oil and change oil & filter per manufacturers specs OR more often. Now I've only had a diesel tractor the last 4.5 years, but during that same time, I've spent a fair amount of time operating neighbors' big tractors, primarily working in the hay business, and while I know they must exist in this part of the country, I haven't found a single one who says he'd use synthetic oil in anything. Now if others disagree, it sure doesn't hurt my feelings. First, I'm always glad to hear other folks' opinions (things do change and I might learn something), and secondly, if it's your money and equipment, I figure it's your business what you do with it and how you do it. And if there weren't so many different opinions, there wouldn't be so many products on the market. And darned if I don't really enjoy these discussions and reading the different opinions. ....

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bill
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1999-12-09          10814

MLS,
One thing I failed to mention in my post, was something that the propeganda machine failed to mention from the oil companies. The reason you have to change petro oil so often, is because they didn't do it right in the first place. Remember, cheep fast and profitable. To the oil company that is.....

Bill
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bill
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1999-12-09          10815

Bird,Well you may have me on the one about most people. Seeing that most people only keep a car, or perhaps a tractor for a short period of time, heck they don't even have to waist time changing the oil or filter. They will last for that 2 or 3 year lease without a problem, that is unless your leasing company does an oil analysis at the end of the lease. This soceity has definately changed. No one fixes anything anymore, they just throw it away, and buy new. That is why there are so many land fills here in NEPA. That is why there is so much polution in the ground. Were you one of the guys that used to put the oil back into the ground after it was used? We gotta stop doing that. Our kids have to live here after we are gone. And they are gonna need oil too. What you profess is short sighted. It is not good for even most people. I really am not like Al Gore, nor do I even like him. But we do have to use resourses wisely, or you, or your kids, kids will be running synthetic even if they thought Grandpa was right, whether they like it or not. You can't tell me that you don't see the bennies of analysis if you really did what you said you did. Unless the propoganda from the Company is really loud down there, and everything else is dround out. Not trying to offend here, just sit and think about what I said. Someday it will make sense. In the mean time, My Engine, Trans and anything else I can put it it will have synthetic, and all it's bennies. Hope you get 50 outa that tractor of yours. Call me and let me know if you ever do.
Bill
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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-09          10816

Bird brings a good point to the table. Few know much about it, and fewer people actually use it..Makes perfect sense why the hesitation exists. Not to mention that many of you have quite a collection of memories and experiences using what you probably use and do still today. I forget sometimes that my situation has been different from the beginning. My father had the "GUTS" to try Synthetics..And for that I Guess I owe an additional thanks to my father. The local farmers in my area would probably laugh at this concept because thier father's didn't use it. Bird, You don't believe synthetics could be less costly because your experience is polished in Petroleum but assumed non-existent with Synthetics. Your part of the majority... ....

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Nuclear_Weapon7
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1999-12-09          10818

Has anyone here tried JoJoba oil ? I have heard that it lets you run 100,000 miles without oil change. I think oil filter should be chaged 10 times within that interval.
Nuclear_Weapon7.
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Sindh,
PAKISTAN.
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bo
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1999-12-09          10819

Bird, Bill,Mls---You boys are hot tonight. Betcha none of you are driving a 83 car and using a 79 lawn tractor which run pretty much like the day I got them and that means using them on a constant basis. Seems to me that motor oil is recycled today at least it is in N.Y. Kinda enjoy the point that Bill made about Fram filters.- catch that one , Mls? I've changed a lot of oil and don't seem to recall ever hearing my engines rattle or do anything strange and I do listen to my motors cause as you guys know, they talk to you. But then again, the oil pressure builds up in such a short time that maybe I missed it. I'll try harder on the next oil change. Seems as if we use dino oil we'll use up the resource but what I'm gathering is that synthetics don't use up resources. Hmmm?Speaking of oil and resources, I wonder if you boys are aware that oil is in a myriad of your products which get tossed away, so next time that the better half wants, say, the wall to wall carpets changed cause they are a little worn, tell her you can't cause that would use up scarce resources. Oil is in most of your synthetics,some of your food, medicine ,plastics , etc. I'm going to go look at 21 year old cub and 17 year old car [both which I use regularly} which I have beat to death and tell them that I did wrong by them cause I used the wrong stuff. I ain't saying another word. bo ....

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Nuclear_Weapon7
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1999-12-09          10822

Bo my Massey dealer has not told me anything about Sun's planned moevements at the turn of the millenium. Although i have told him him that i think that the sun and all the planets shall collide in less than a hundred years but not so soon as within few days.
Leaving that asided i tried rubbubg different oils between my finger and my thumb and i foud out that shell's helix is no good, so is castrol GTX. But Castrol CXT and Castrol turbomax and good enough. Millat's Long drain is also good.
Nuclear_Weapon7.
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Bill
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1999-12-09          10829

Hmmm, Bo can't see the forest because of all the BS he spews. Now I know why I didn't have a taste for you, we have all your trash coming here. So if we can recycle oil, why can't we clean it in the engine? Only cheep oil will deplete the addative package that quickly. Opps did I say oil? Sorry Petroleum oil. So why not use synthetics, stop getting dirty all the time, and do your engine a favor. Oh by the way, I used to change the oil in my Sears Walk behind, that I cut lawns with as a side job, once per year, for 20 years. Body quite, not the engine. Do you change the oil every 25 hours? I don't think so. So if regular petro stuff can last longer in a motor that doesn't have a pump or filter than is recomended, synthetics certainly can extend the changes with proper filtration. So even though it is made with crude, at least some of it anyway, you won't deplete it as quickly. If you don't understand, just read it slower. It will sink in eventually. Well maybe.
That is the last word. Not worth the time or effort. ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-09          10832

Hey Bo, you're right; I'm not driving an '83 car, I have an '81 F250 Ford. And my wife drives a '99, but only because she rolled her '93 last February while it was still practically new; only had 121,000 on the odometer. I love the posts about rubbing oil between your fingers to see if you can feel the fingerprints. Seriously though, if any of you ever get a chance, look at some different grades of motor oil, new and used, under a good microscope; quite interesting. ....

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bo
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1999-12-09          10840

bird-I'll bite-haven't got a microscope-what will I see if I look at various oils under the scope? You got my curiousity on this one. Can't sell me on the finger print deal though. I do agree with your original post on the oil thing. Don't know for sure, but I also don't think that synthetics are cost effective. The other part of me has a qualitative problem, can't seem to get over the fact that all that dirty synthetic is there for so long and if the filter fills up with particulate matter then it will bypass through the valve and be in the engine. As it is, now that the board has me thinking about it, I never lost a motor. Traded cars because of other problems, wore out chain saws and still have all my tractors some with a heck of alot of years and hours on them. Diligent oil changes and maintenance is the key to longitivity. Maybe we are just lucky....Nah! bo ....

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Greg H
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1999-12-10          10843

I have done a lot of research into this matter and have been involved with this equ. for years also. On the web page for Mobil they are quick to advise on their synthetic oils that equ. in dirty environments should not even with the best oil use extended drain intervals. There is a tech support number for them on the web site. they are most helpful. Also as in the case with Kubota they now require a 100 hour oil change, i think that is down from another higher figure but oddly enough they only recommend changing the oil filter every other oil change. Go figure that one if you can. But seriously extended oil changes are primarily for over the road diesels that dont idle much. 2 facts here are important. Over the road diesels dont run in dirty conditions and 2 if they dont idle much the oil is not as contaminated because diesels are very inefficient at idle. That is also spelled out if one digs deep enough in different web pages for oil manufacturers. Whew i hope i have helped a little. I sincerely do not wish to sound like a know-it-all. I'm sure that is the way it sounds. I just hate to hear of someone doing something i feel is injurious when published items indicate a better way.
Greg H. ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-10          10845

Bo, I'm not going to say what you'll see under the microscope because things do change and it's been too many years (don't want to start another long disagreement). And I'm still waiting to be convinced that I ought to use synthetics. I like the idea, but I have a couple of problems with it. Are you old enough to recall when synthetics were new and the primary selling point was the long intervals betweens changes (25,000 miles I seem to recall as the original claim)? And now even the producers of the synthetics have backed off those claims (you may have just stated the reason in your post). It's been almost 5 years now since I got rid of my last motorhome and quit subscribing to RV magazines, but one of them ran a long article about that time and they had contacted GM, Ford, and Chrysler to inquire about using synthetics. Each of the three said synthetics were fine, would not void the warranty, etc., BUT to still use the same oil change interval recommended in the owners' manual. The author reached the same conclusion I mentioned earlier; synthetics are great if you live in Alaska (the "thinner" stuff circulates faster when cold). Now I've spent my life in the Texas heat, but I have two brothers; one lived in Anchorage for 20 years and the other for 25. They had no experience with tractors, but owned a diesel repair business at one time, and one of them owned and drove big diesel trucks. And even driving them to Prudhoe Bay on the pipeline haul road in the winter, used the same Delo 400 he's using in his diesel trucks in Texas today. Now being as old and lazy as I am, and a bit concerned about the environment myself, I'd love for someone to convince me that my equipment will hold up as well over the years even if I stretch those intervals out. ....

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bo
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1999-12-10          10846

Bird- I'm old enough to remember the 25000m claims, I'm old enough to remember .25 per gal. gas. I think I was around when the Jesus was born. Yup,also think synthetics are better but many motors later with no problems ain't just luck. Being an outdoors man, care of the environment is not even negotiable,it's a must. Nice chatting with you Bird, gotta visit my daughter in Ft. Worth this summer,how can you guys stand the heat? Later. bo ....

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mario
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1999-12-10          10851

Hi all

Great subject. Great way to wake up this group also. My two cents.

The best scientific study on the subject I have seen was done for Prolong by SINTEF at the norwegian institute of technology # STF18F87013. Get a copy. It uses the standard block and ring set up which is best at determining ultimate protecton that oil films will give before nothing is left but the metal//metal.

They compared the best mineral oil they could find via the testing (easter US crude bassed) to two different synthetics and also gear oil with and without additives. The tests were on steel to steel and bronze to steel.

The real eye opener was that the sythetics showed much higher wear that the natural oils both with and without additives.

The synthetics were better at temperature reduction and friction reduction. This did not make sence so I re read it over and over again.

The best combo they came up with was the natural oil (word has it that it was Kendal GT turbo) and the 10- 15% additive. The impressive results yealded 15% friction reduction, 36% temperature reduction and 78.8% wear reduction over the straight oil bath. Rub that in you fingers.

Straight up the only advantage to the plastic oil is that the motor will run cooler and pumping will be easier and faster. If you don't need either one, I would save your money. I have been using delvac for the winter benifits and would not if I were in a warmer climate.

Happy tractoring.

....

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mike
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1999-12-10          10860

Baffled, baffled and more baffled......First I try to preload my filter and make a huge mess on my floor. Then some guys try to tell me to "dump out the excess" because of the highly absorbant filter will preload it. Now my question is----Does the pump "suck off" the oil that is in the "highly absorbant filter"? My common sense tells me this is impossible. Maybe a very small amount. Maybe it will draw off some oil fumes but not enough to make a difference. Is there tests to prove this? I have been installing my filters dry for over 30 yrs. and never had a problem. I have never had an engine failure and every engine I had out-lasted the car wrapped around it. ....

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bo
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1999-12-10          10865

Mike- I hate oil spills--never preloaded my filters and as you, never had a problem in 40 years. The way I got it figured, now that everyone is making me think about it, is that I run my engines to heat up the oil and put all the particulate matter into suspension, then I drain it pretty much right away. I don't believe that all the oil drains down from the galleys, cylinder walls, rocker arm and mains in that short period of time. Then I start the motor right away and let the filter fill and pressure build up and that's it. There has to be a film on everything in that short period of time. If you were draining after the motor sat, say, overnight then reloading may make sense. Then again,you shouldn't drain oil cold as the solids will preticipate out and will not leave the oil pan. Do whatcha been doing,you ain't lost a motor yet.bo ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-10          10868

Bo, sounds like you're changing oil the same way I've been doing it for about 44 years. So far, so good. ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-10          10869

Humm..Still trying to figure out how 40 years of experience in Manu'f recommended oil changes make a person knowledgeable in "extended" drain intervals or the properties and uses of synthetics?..I'll need some time on that one. Sorry guys,Gotta leave for the weekend. Argue Kindly.. ....

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bo
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1999-12-10          10873

let's see if I can put together the salient material from all this oil stuff. As I see it ,Change your oil frequently, sooner then the manufacturer recommends, don't use synthetics cause they don't prevent wear as well as dino oil, use synthetics if the stuff makes you feel better or you use your equipment in high heat conditions, change the synthetic oil frequently thus negating any environmental or economic benefit, don't preload your oil filter as it makes an environmental mess and doesn't seem to have much compensatory benefit unless the filter installs vertically and lastly, buying a quality filter is a crap shoot. One more thing, rub the oil between your fingers to please our international friends. Did I get it all. bo ....

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tj
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1999-12-10          10877

Yea bo you got it right. When I was working with commercial equipment we used the crap out of those diesels. Hot days, cold days, high loads, dusty...you name it. What oil did we use? Cenex 30wt. Fact is there is a lot of damage tolerance built right into any good engine. Good design, good quality control at manufacture, good engine, period. An otherwise solid engine aint gonna eat itself up if you put the "wrong" oil in it...thats why they got the grades printed on the container that match the grades recommended in the manual. And to make it even easier for us all they print a oil change interval in the manual too. ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-10          10878

I think you got 'er all summed up, Bo. How do we stand the heat? Just barely! That's been my biggest complaint with this part of the country all my life, but I guess if I was somewhere else, I'd just find something else to complain about. ....

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Nuclear_Weapon7
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1999-12-10          10883

Good summing up Bo. I am not a Petroleum engineer , I am just a farmer, farming is not a hobby for me computers and inertnet are, farming is my livelihood. I tried rubbing new Castrol CXT between my fingers couldn't feel my fingerprints but after 1000 kilmeters i took a drop of it from the dip stick and i could feel my fingerprints, I think that shows that it detetiorated because of usage. As for JoJoba, (pronucened Ho Ho Ba) it is a tree of a large shrub, originally from mexico or south America but now grown all over the world inculding USA and PAISTAN. Its oil is a replacement for some kind of a Whale oil ( may be sperm whale oil ). Its got to be much more enviromente friendly than either mineral oils (Petroleum) or plastic or synthetic, because some bacteria ought to eat it. An American company contacted Pakistani farmers through ads in newspapers to induce them to plant Jojoba. I also attented their seminar, but didn't plant Jojoba because it requires arid or desert climate and much lower underground water levels than my lands.
Nuclear_Weapon7,
Hyderabad,
Sindh,
PAKISTAN.
....

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mike
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1999-12-10          10884

Nuc 7, When I raced dirtbikes they had a product called "Castrol R" is was made out of castor beans. In wear tests it came out better than synthetic or mineral. It also increased H.P. on the dyno. The only drawback is that it ran extremely dirty. You would have to de-carbon your ports etc. every so many hours. The stuff left a "gummy" residue on top of the piston that was impossible to remove. Anyway my conclusion is... "Good things can be made from plants." ....

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mario
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1999-12-10          10885

Hi all!. This has been the best thread I have seen on this board by far.

Thanks for the kind words Bo.

Now I know how to tell if vasoline is better than KY by just using one of my own hands. (A wise old man once told me that real men use there heads and quickly figure a way to eliminate the need for such things.)

The report I mentioned in the earlier post does show some advantages to the plastic oils. I just thought I would put some of the facts out that blew my mind.

One of the common oils that is tremendous at reducing wear is gear oil. In fact most of the ingrediants in it (moly, sulpher, phosferous, etc.)would make most cheap oils into super lubes (great at extreem pressure apllications). Most of the major break throughs in recient years has been to magnatize atoms of the above elements in full solutions so they stick very well to metal.

Have a great weekend all. I am working out of town so keep it civil.
....

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Nuclear_Weapon7
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1999-12-11          10889

Mario,
Are you recommending that we put gear oil in our engines ?
....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-11          10892

Mario, what is "Prolong"? And SINTEF? Is the Norwegian Institute of Technology a school in Norway or a business in the Dakotas? How do I get a copy of this report? Can you e-mail me one?
Bo, I think you summed up about everything in your synopsis except I gotta still wonder what advantage it is to a Jojoba plant that makes it produce oil.
As for myself, after half a century of doing mechanical things I still don't have any answers to oil. At this point my experience seems to be telling me that lubrication failures follow types of designs and particular manufacturers more than the failures follow types of oil, oil change interval, or the way the machine is used.....
A lot of people have looked long and hard at oils, and still can't come up with overwhelming evidence to answer the simplest questions about lubrication, time interval, and wear patterns. My feeling is that the difference between the various oil philosophies is very small....if it is even there.Probably of less importance than things we can't control. Things like the design of the lubrication system or the clearances when originally manufactured.
Roger L ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-11          10896

Bo, I'll stick my neck out and see if I can explain the brakes (and see if I get any disagreement). All the tractors that I am familiar with (and there might well be exceptions) have brakes on the rear wheels only. Now if you are in 2WD, then the rear wheels are the only ones braking and the front ones are free wheeling. But if you are in 4WD, then you have effectively locked the front and rear axles together. Therefore, if you apply brakes to the rear wheels and slow down or stop the rear axle from turning, it stops the front axle from turning also. ....

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Bill
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1999-12-11          10899

Well Bird, that is one I can agree with you on in at least theory, never tried it though.Bill
PS. I really don't think my oil that I use is a plastic oil. There are several different types out there, and yes I wouldn't use those either. My choice is crude which has been molecularly altered. All molecules of the oil are the same size. Petro oil is made up of a vatiety of sizes. I don't idle my tractor, as that will cause loading of the oil with raw fuel,and possibly soot, because a diesel doesn't make enough heat at idle. Only idle it for about 4-5 minutes after a hard run to help cool the motor evenly. One other thing that helps longevity. Doesn't only apply to turbo models. Bo, my tractor not only my engine it is my second wife, at least according to my #1 wife. I am very tenacious, sometimes overbearing, and if my comments became obnoxious, I appologise :<) BUT I still believe my beliefe is correct, at least through my experiences. You are certainly entitled to your beliefe, otherwise we would all go to the same church too! Happy tractoring all!
Bill ....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-11          10901

Bird...very clever explanation on the braking question. It makes sense to me, though I confess that I have never thought it all the way through as it seems you have done. I do use 4wd when decending hills with a load in the bucket. In that orientation the weight transfer puts a lot of the load on the front wheels and and the rear end doesn't end up with enough weight to keep from skidding if you even think about using the brakes. So I use engine braking plus the low range gears plus 4wd so that the engine braking is tied to the front wheels. This setup works well. In fact, I thought this was what Bo was talking about when he mentioned 4 wheel brakes. ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-11          10904

Bill, when you talk about molecularly altered oils, that's what I was talking about when I suggested folks look at some oils under a good microscope. Bo asked what he would see and I don't want to say because it's been too many years and too many things have changed, but I'll quote my younger brother (and hope no one jumps on me if I'm wrong). He says some oils look like balls the size of golf balls, some the size of tennis balls, but good oil, rated for diesel use, looks more like basketball size. Now the technician who showed him that claims the oils that look like bigger balls provide more "cushion", i.e., better lubrication, particularly in big engines. Now if someone wants to say that this is pure bull, I'll tell you to start with, that I don't really know. But I would like to get a chance to look at some of the new lubricants under the microscope again myself. ....

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Nuclear_Weapon7
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1999-12-11          10910

The minimopar web page on oil is very good.
Its a must see for readers of this thread.
....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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bill
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1999-12-11          10919

Bird, Yes I agree with that statement. The larger the molecules the larger the oil film thickness between the journel and the bearing. I'll confess that I haven't looked under the microscope yet, but my literature claims that they get rid of all the small stuff in favor of the large. I dunno the process, but perhaps they run it through some sort of molecular sieve. What I do know is what I had said before, when I change with regular petro oil the motor was noisy on start up. and when I changed last summer for the first time in 4-5 years, it was just as quiet as when I normally start. I have heard quite a few 7.3L Navistars at this milage that have run on petro the whole time and they are noisier than mine. The dealer even says mine is quiet compared to other units he workd on. This stuff is supposed to stay in the journals and cling to parts better than petro to give you a wet, rather than a dry start, which it really seams to do. Dry starts are where most of your engine wear comes in. I went to Exxon/Mobil (when did they merge??) site. They talked about running a BMW for a million miles and most of the parts were still in spec. Well they didn't say if they ever shut it off. and if you and I didn't it would go a long way to getting our cars that far too. Highway milage is always easier on a car than stop and go short trips. Continued next post
Bill ....

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bill
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1999-12-11          10920

The oil I drained was indeed black, but analysis indicated that all was ok to just keep on using it. Just wanted to change to a newer version, and give it a fresh tummy full. Analysis is good, cuz I had a problem with an injector that was creating excess soot. Repaired it and everything is fine. Matter of fact didn't have to change the oil, as everything came back in spec with one filter change. Maybe chainging the oil if I was using petro with no analysis would have kept things ok, maybe not. That is what I mean by masking things. I dunno Bird, but my experience has been good, oil pressure is the same (and I verify with a real guage occasionally) as when I went to the synthetic and oil consumption is down from the petro, and no more grit between my fingers. That grit was what prompted me to look into a filter system which could filter out particles into the submicron range. Mind you not all the oil is being forced through this filter, only about 1/5th at a time. The rest goes the regular route. Lots of pressure left, no problem there. And being as clean as it is has to help. I am a believer, even if I can't make anyone else see it. One other thing, I had a 92 Crown that I put the Bypass Filtration system, air filter and oil from Amsoil in. Granted the car was just broken in, but the oil stayed clean for almost 5,000 miles. Really clean. You can't expect that with a deisel but that amaized me. The petro oil (Pennsoil Turbo) would be BLACK in just about 500 miles. I already have it in my New Holland, and it seems to agree with it. And I have used it in other equipment too. Well to each his own, but when the temps got down to -40 when I was visiting my inlaws in Canada my 250 fired right up, spun just like it was summer. No heater either. Let me tell ya I was glad that I mixed one tank half and half though, and put in conditioner to boot. She woulda jelled for sure that night.Bill ....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-11          10922

Bill, I have always meant to look into bypass filtration. Whose system do you use? Or have you designed your own? ....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-11          10926

It takes a microscope with a special image enhancing filter. Or was that an imagination enhancing filter?? :-) ....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-12          10928

Yep. And just when he thought he was going to slip one right past us, too.. :-)
I'd better be quiet now since I kinda mentioned I might stop by next time I'm down in his area.
Back to tractors: We have about a foot of powder snow and temp. today in the 20s with hard wind. Of course I can't miss a chance to try my new/old tractor out in this stuff so I plugged it in for an hour, gave it the thermostart for 10 seconds, and she fired right up. In weather this cold it is not the engine oil that worries me; it is the transmission oil. My tractor has pressure oiling to the transmission -a very unusual feature. Of course a transmission is pretty quiet when the tractor is stationary, and I can hear the transmission gear pump whine as it struggles to pump that thick oil. So I always give it a long warm up. Happy to report that powder snow has great traction. Without spinning, I was able to pull the 6' backblade uphill as long as I wanted. With 4 ranges and lo/med/hi speeds forward in each, I ended up using mostly second range times whatever forward gear the shuttleshift happened to end up in for uphill... and third range low for downhill work. ....

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tom
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1999-12-12          10929

I'm curious about Roger's transmission oil comment.

A person who runs a fleet in near artic conditions commented on another board about not having starting problems. He was using block heaters and magnetic heaters on his oil pans and transmissions. I also operate in cold conditions and have concerns about transmission oil.

I talked to a dealer about magnetic heaters. The dealer's opinion was that winter weight oils (engine and transmission) work better. The magnetic heaters
don't actually get enough heat through the cases to make much difference.

I'll do what's best for the tractor, but I'd like to avoid changing transmission oil unless the tractor hours are close to a scheduled change.

Appreciate any opinions. ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-12          10931

Dang, I shouldn't be talking to you guys (Eskimos?) anyway. -40, Bill? The coldest temperature I've ever seen was -16, and that was the winter I spent at Northwestern University in Evanston, IL. It was only -5 the last time I drove across the border from Canada into Alaska (March '91), and the coldest I've ever seen in Dallas was the 1989-90 winter when we had a record -1 one morning. And it's highly unlikely my tractor will ever be started when the temperature is under 40 above. If it got as cold as you guys talk about, I'd probably change a lot of things; my address to start with. But at least I've gotten a lot of good laughs out of reading this thread. ....

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Bird Senter
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1999-12-12          10934

P.S., guys. I told you I was quoting my baby brother (he's seen oil under a microscope a lot more recently than I have). I forgot to tell you he's prone to exaggeration (and he wasn't even born in Texas). ....

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tractorman
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1999-12-12          10947

Alright boys, this oil & filter subject is really dragging on a bit. Just a quick word from me. I have a Kubota in my shop that has had nothing but synthetic oil in it since 100 hrs. It now has 1000 hrs on it and is completely apart awaiting a complete enginge rebuild. Now i am not blaming the oil for this problem, my point is this, don't think your making your tractor invincible by putting synthetic oil in it and then neglecting to change it as prescribed by the manufacturer. Oil & Filters are much less expensive than engine rebuilds, and engine troubles never happen the most convenient times. ....

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mario
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1999-12-12          10950

Hi Roger

SINTEF is The Foundation for Scientific and Industrial research. Trondheim Norway. 011 477 593 000, do you speak norwegian, fax 011 477 592 480. That's what is on the report. I hear it's run by a bunch of bachalor farmers :-). They are regarded as the draper labs of europe. Speaking of which, Draper (Boston, MA) did a mess of oil testing for Tufoil when they got in trouble with the US government. To bad for us the goverment was wrong and had to pay out one shit load of our money to tufoil based on the good scientific methods that Draper established for oil testing over ten years ago.

Prolong is the oil additive that has been running that infomercial, that has al unser running a viper around the track lap after lap at better than 80 MPH with no oil in it.

I often wondered about how the gear oil would work in the crankcase if it were the right weight.

mario ....

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Roger L.
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1999-12-12          10958

OOps. I've gotten a couple of emails asking if I use transmission oil in the engine...My comments must have been a bit on the confusing side. NO! I use engine oil in the engine (Shell Rotella T) and trans/hydro oil (JD HyGard 303) in the transmission. I guess I confused things when I mentioned that some manual transmissions have pressure oiling.
Yep, I believe in engine and transmission oil heaters and in long warmup times. Like the rest of us I simply believe in some oils. That there is not a shred of evidence to backup my belief doesn't bother me in the slightest... :-) ....

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RobertN
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1999-12-14          11023

OK, I'll bite on this hook, line, and sinker.....

I have access to high power metalurgical microscopes with high definition digital capture systems.

I will volunteer to take pictures based on the following:
1) Petroleum sample at 0 hours and 100 hours
2) Synthetic sample at 0 hours and 100 hours

I will have to borrow the correct filters, but can take of that.

I do not know how to post pictures to a forum like this, nor do I have a personal web page. Someone will have to provide direction to me...

I will need a small vial of each sample(small! not a quart!).

Oh, I need two people to volunteer to send me some oil.

Email me directly at renielsen@jps.net, we'll arrange for shipping.
RobertN ....

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Bill
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1999-12-14          11026

MLS, RogerN, This oughta be really interesting! I hope it shows something though. Course everyone will see things differently. Bill ....

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mario
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1999-12-14          11039

Hi all.

Why waist your time taking pictures. It is not a beauty contest. Who cares what the oil looks like.

More important is how it handles the task at hand. Friction/ Pressure/ temperature/ shear/ pumping/ lubrication/ etc. etc.....

Many established tests show just that. Lets not confuse the issue.

happy tractoring

mario

....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-15          11056

Robert,
I think its kind of you to offer your services, but (OMO) I think you would be wasting your time. For 2 reasons. First, companies have been performing oil analysis testing for many years. Nothing you find or "see" will be a break through or newly discovered. Sorry to disappoint everyone. Second reason, people who have been using Pennsoil, valvoline, ect.. will continue to do things as they have for the past 20, 40 even 60 years and therefore little will change or is gained by your effort. Guess I gotta learn to keep my mouth shut sometimes, But I have always been one to lend a hand, and having worked in the petroleum reclaimation industry for 4 years, sampling, testing, and recovering an averaging 1500-2300 gallons a day. I feel confident at times that I can offer something few "truely" can. Does this make me an expert? Not by a long shot. But the way I see it, Bill & myself have been the only people here to post something beyond what is "Common Knowledge, or within the "Manu'f safety net" (just ask Bo..). Kinda like telling everone you've never had a door ding in 40 years, because the Manual recommended parking in an open field. You want to impress me..Park at a shopping mall, and tell me about your pristine doors.
Or that you never got a speeding ticket in 50 years of driving the limit.. As if that offers useful evidence or experience to speeding. On that note, I'm not preaching that a 3k petro oil change is horrible or that your motor will die or burn up prematurely. Heck, I'd expect it to last forever changing that often, Otherwise, its like getting a ticket for doing the speed limit. It is however been my experience, that this practice is many times unnecessary and wastefull. Yet no-one here has yet to put thier money where thier mouth is. You tell me your car has 200k of 3k manu'f recommended oil changes, So does mine, only I've been under my car 53 less times that you, and saved a fair amount of money along the way. I've put my money where my mouth is...Can you?....Or ya just gunna tell me more stories about your 80 years of experience in premature oil changes...and mention advertisements from oil companies. ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-15          11057

Mario,
Since you have access to many established tests, Why don't you share them with all of use to enjoy...Hold the advertisements. ....

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mario
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1999-12-15          11058

Hi All

MLS, what makes you think I am advertizing anything. I just like to put an end to the language of ingonorance! If you want to learn what is real in the land of science, I encourage you to do so. I gave the phone numbers/fax for the norwegian institute, Draper Labs you can get by dialing Boston info. You can get the data. The real poop!. Go for it.

I have spent many, many hours researching oils and additives. I have seen several test methods and tests. I consider myself a mere beginer at the subject. The more I learn, the more I realize that I am just a novice with an interest in lubrication technology.

Let us know how your education goes. I will do the same.

Happy tractoring. ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-15          11059

On second thought, post a few advertisements from the big oil company you helped build couldn't be such a bad thing. Thought about the post referencing Mobil oil's websight, so I checked it out myself...Humm, what do ya know.. further solidification of what I've been saying all along.


In case the link didn't work.
http://www.mobil.com/consumer/lubes/lubes/motoroilfaq_content.html ....


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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-15          11060

Lets try that link one more time. ....


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RobertN
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1999-12-15          11068

I was just going to take some pictures during lunch. It's simple to do, so what the heck. I'll still take a peek at my oil, just out of curiosity.

I have a Kubota B8200HST-D, 19hp with 523 hours. I did a full fluid change at 500 hours, so my Delo-400 only has 23 hours on it. Old oil is already recycled.

I have not checked my home email today to see if anone responded. I'll still give this a try, again, just for curiousities sake.

Too bad the SEM's I have access to are high vacuum systems; it'd be interesting to do some WDX/EDX analysis on a sample! ....

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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-15          11075

Mario, I agree 100%, as you said.."put an end to the language of ingonorance!".
Which is why I requested you to post your institute findings, for others to see.
All kidding aside, I am truely & honestly asking for advise in seeking additional knowledge and "factual" information about this topic. Mainly because I don't know where else to look. Oil Analysis..Been there..still do that,experience in both petro & Synthetics..been there..done that. I will gladly read findings from an independent lab with 0 interest in any of the products tested, and one who tests the product longer than a few hours. I have also seen the PROLONG test, and I cannot argue the findings. But further investigation shows PROLONG as a Chlorine based product. Of which is commonly used as a lubricant in heavy industrial applications, but who's life span is extremely short lived, and turns oil into a grease like substance when mixed with heat. I'm having a hard time believing in a test, who's results seem to stand by themselves. Every other test,ect,ect,ect contradicts this outcome.
I would like to think this is a perfect opportunity for all of us to work together. Instead of arguing with our Ego's..I'll be the first to put mine aside, especially since I've shown it enough already in this post..No comment from you BO... :)
BTW: Included Castrol's website as an FYI.. ....


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MichaelSnyder
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1999-12-15          11076

Not sure why the link doesn't work, so here's the address.

http://www.castrol.com/domino/casbstr.nsf/content/AutomotiveCarsCastrolSLX ....


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Bill
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1999-12-15          11077

Sorry Bo! Bravo MLS BRAVO!!! I wonder what oil analysis would say about some of these engines that are using petro? Mario, I don't think MLS was picking on you in particular. Obviosely none of us are experts, nor claim to be. It would be good for all to look at the Mobil/Exxon link MLS posted, and see just how LITTLE is really said about specifications, and just how much is hype. Don't get me wrong boys, I, at one time, used Mobil 1 too. Maybe not a bad oil, but they don't tell you much more about it other than it's slipery, and will allow your engine to run cooler and more efficient. Well I won't post my oil companies site, at least not yet. Gotta get your intrest peaked enough to really check things out first. Mario's suggestion isn't a bad one, but sometimes engineers are like lawyers, and can't write something that is intelligable by anyone except another engineer. Jorgon is a whole different language sometimes, and if you don't know it, can lead to disasterous results. Oh well. This really looks like it is gonna be a thread which wil be something like the scuffing of the JD tractors. Go on, and on, and on, and.........Bill ....

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Ken
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1999-12-15          11084

I'm no expert, but I'll add this comment: starting a couple of years ago, GM *required* Mobil 1 to meet warranty requirements for Corvettes

Ken ....

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greg
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1999-12-15          11085

What a ride! 180,00 miles ago, I decided to put synth in my Nissan and change it every 10,000 miles. What I did was change it every 25,000 or so. Still runnin'. I keep petroleum in my B, 318 and 870. I also keep HD oil in my 70's sportster. (yeah I pay a real premium for the HD stuff but those guys run hot and they were supposed to have spent time researchin'.) I also use OEM filters except for the auto. I am too weak to stray from the manufactures stuff and specs on the 870 and the HD cause of the religous overtones but on the nissan...Is this extended interval burning up the additives or polluting the oil? I only use Mobil1 something or other and I do change the filter about midway. On oil analysis..Where do I see about having this done? At what magnification on the microscope do you start to see the Bucky Balls;) and such in the oil? Curosity only! Anyway, You all have been great. Later , Greg. ....

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mario
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1999-12-15          11089

Hi All

I would be glad to post the test here if I could figure out how. Has someone called prolong and gotten the test I have mentioned. I am not for or against sythetic oil, as I mentioned before it's what I am using in my tractor and truck. It's much more complicated than just looking at the stuff and gas economy. I came to most of the data from the plastic molding industry where tring to improve the bottom line of a sucessful plant. We tried everything possible to keep tight tolerance molds running near as dry as possible day after day without crashing. We were able to save a bunch of cash with what we learned.

Also the machine shop claimed many sucess stories with various lubrication products in machining hardened steel Rc 55-62 parts.

Any one that can tell me how to post the test report please feel free to contact me. I also wrote X1R and Tufoil for there tests which cover base oils of dino and plastic bases. No word yet. Prolong is a parefin base that is clorinated (given a negative charge). I also am some what worried about long term factors, but can tell you that it does work in very harsh situations. I am talking metal to metal (no cushy oil pressure you engine enjoys) sitiations that would weld the sufaces together without it.

Nasa did a mess of testing with x1r. We must have some folks that drive tractors that have some connections to the space program.

Keep in touch.

mario
....

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bo
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1999-12-15          11097

folks- If that link doesn't work go to http://www.maintenanceresource.com/ReferenceLibrary/OilAnalysis/Index.htm and jump to the research paper starting with Proactive Maintenance Can yield...... and follow my previous suggestions. bo ....


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bo
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1999-12-15          11100

Bill, got a research paper for you written by a PE and not in "jargon". If a simple soul like me could understand it, then I'm sure a sophisticated, learned person like you would have no problem. Check my other posts. hope they work.:-)bo ....

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Bill
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1999-12-16          11115

Bo, I said I was sorry about the words, but I take that back. It's either the synthetic oil that I put in this darn puter, or your link doesn't work. Even just tried the maintresourse.com alone. (I know it's not all there) This darn thing just keeps givin me a not found. You pullin my leg? Check it out seriously. I wanna read this. By the way, I have not done just analysis on the tractor as yet, Just with the F250. Wanna see if my oil company has a system for the tractor before I do that. Really works better with the entire system in place. Bill ....

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Bill
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1999-12-16          11124

Well Bo, this is what I was talking about with the ENTIRE SYSTEM in place. In the articles you sent both talked about filtration. One mentioned filtration down to the 15 Micron level, yet talked about the filtration of particles below the 10 micron level being more critical than above. Well my friend, the System which I am using, filters the oil to 0.1 micron, which effectively filters the oil to refinery standards. This also eliminates the water content from the oil, which the second article eludes to as being the secod best destroyer of engine bearings. Damn, you led me into this Bo. Maybe it is time for you to REALLY check out something. Unfortunately they do not say which kind of synthetic oil is going to pick up that 1000 ppm of water, and yes there are sythetics which I would avoid. I would like you to take an open mind and check in this link. It may take a little time to read all the information present, and I am not sure if all of what I have on paper is in there but.... Go to http://amsoil.com/index.htm and really read. Don't dismiss it because it is a manufacturers site, cuz almost everything of what your articles say, is in some way shape or form addressed by this company. I researched a long time on this before I put it into my $28,000+ truck. I have had analysis done every 6 months, and each time all limits are normal. In so far as the maintenance programs which are listed in these articles, my company has several dozen Cincinatti Millicron 220 ton Injection mold machines, which they periodically filter the hydrolic oil and do analysis on. They have very low failure rates and rarely change the oil. This is what they are talking about in these articles. Field filters refered to here, are filters which mostly are full flow, which means that they cannot be to restrictive, if you want the proper oil pressure, therefore tradeoffs are made. They can only effectively filter down to 15-20 microns. Everything else is left in. When you filter only a portion of the oil contaminents, yes you really do need to change as often as you do, never said you don't. But when there is a system designed around extended drain usage, you really are not circulating the used bath water. Heck Bo, the bath water comes from some really polluted rivers sometimes, and with filtration, you even drink it. By the way, you experiencing any cramps yet from that quart of sythetic??? Never said to drink it either. Seriousely, go see the site, open minded. Think about the two articles you sent me, and let me know. Bill ....

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Bill
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1999-12-16          11125

Sorry Bo, I forgot the WWW. The site should read http://www.amsoil.com/index.htm Hope it works better than your like tonight. Yours still not working by the way.Bill ....

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Bill
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1999-12-16          11127

Bo, I was gonna post the articles, but the Webmaster would definately kick me outta here. Would have been at least 20 posts to this already unbelievably long thread. To all, to post anything in here, in so far as text anyway, just highlight the text, press Ctrl and C keys simultaniously, open the reply box to the board, click in the message box and press Ctrl and V keys simultaniously and the text will be dropped in. Perhaps you and Mario could contact the Webmaster, and he would put up a special place for these items to be posted. At least Bo's is informative, and I am sure so will be Mario's. Worth a try. Heck he has let us go on forever here..... Bill ....

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Bill
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1999-12-16          11133

Well Bo, First you said on 11/01/99 in the other hot topic here on the board, that you were gonna change to LEE filters. Boy you are wishy washy. Now only 17 days later you are back to Frams, and after telling me in the articles that you sent me that filtration is the most important thing going on inside an engine. More wishy washy. I even remember that you said something about taking your shoes off going in the house. I do that outta respect for my wife, so she doesn't have to clean up so frequently after a slob. Never know when you walked through dog crap either, which can be very unhealthy. I dunno what you paid for your tractor, but if I can spend under 400 to put a system on it, which will end up saving oil, the enviroment, and my machine, I'm gonna do it. Hell if I did it for my truck, which I may get 15 years outta, with all the salt they put on the roads I am gonna do it for something which should last for 30-40 years. You just wanna have things your way, no open mind. Say what suits you at the moment. Wishy washy, ya know? At least MLS and I can agree and stick with our views. Nobody said you were wrong about your presumption that changing oil is incorrect, for the crap filter you use (read crap FRAM) I have found a better way, which has worked for quite a while. Now if you wanna do it your way that is fine too. But it ain't the responsible way. Sounds like you don't give a damn about anything but your opinion. So be it. Have it your way. Everyone listen to Bo, cuz he IS the only one who could possibly be right. But as MLS said a few days ago, How do you know from experience something that you never tried! Try drinkin some of that used oil. You'll definately die from it. I am not upset, just saying something that You will never hear, cuz your ego is to LARGE. Bill ....

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Bill
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1999-12-16          11138

By the way Bo, this sytem can be transfered from one vehicle or tractor to the next. My 250 hold 12 quarts, 4 times a year was 48 quarts @$2.50 each with 4 filters @ $5-6 each plus my time, which is of most value to me, was more than double paying for the analysis, filters and oil, not including my time. So the whole system is paid for now even including the initial investment, which I will re-afirm, can be switched to the next vehicle. On top of that I have a motor in excellent shape for its years and miles, and have helped keep America Beautiful. Now all I have to get under the truck for is to grease it. I'll find something out for that too. Give me time. Course they seem to be doing away with greasable joints, so maybe the next vehicle it won't matter. And I want to repeat too, that the analysis showed me I had a problem with injectors long before it was really a problem which would have required surgery, so it saved me some money there that I didn't count too. Bill ....

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mike t.
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1999-12-17          11150

Read somewhere that pure synthetic is a poor choice for a diesel motor. It said something about the way synthetic is manufactured it cannot separate the contaminates or combustion by-products properly. Maybe someone else has heard this?? I will try to dig up my info. ....

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mario
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1999-12-17          11156

Hi All

Happy Holidays and all. Bill, please share the parts list and suppliers of the filtering system you speak of. Sounds like it kicks ass! Bo, thanks for the papers. It points to the need for better filters for sure. It sounds like bill's filter would work great on dino crap also. The water thing is a big problem for most all of us in the moist parts of the country.

Has anyone had experience with rotary filters. The ones that are a cylinder with a hole on the end and spin, pushing all particles out to the walls and traping them there. They are refered to as the ultimate filter. I guess Fram and the others will not allow them to get hold.

Bo dont be drinking the stuff. Eve tho it may make the trip to the can a bit smoother. Also corn oil has been linked to brain cancer. Thats why I use olive oil. :-) I wonder how extra virgin would work in a crank case.

Did any one find a place to post the papers yet. My hoster would give me the boot for sure.

thanks

mario ....

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tj
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1999-12-17          11177

Just got back from a business trip and saw that the oil thing is still going on. Wow, I had no idea people had such strong feelings about oil. I posted a message some time ago that approached the subject from the engine design point of view. Design is my bailiwick so I'll stick to that and tell you all right now I'm no expert on oil per se...thats a whole other career. I work for a manufacturer of large commercial equipment and I deal with technical issues regarding the care and feeding of same from customers worldwide. You all talk about your 30K spent on a tractor. Well its the same from a commercial operator who spends millions on their equip. Believe it when I say if it don't work, I hear about it. From the design perspective I can tell you this, the engines in your tractor/truck/car/etc. were designed to operate using the motor oil prescribed in the manual under a wide variety of operating conditions. And like anything else if you take one aspect of a complex mechanical system like an engine, in this case oil, you can go as deep as you want, i.e. micron filtration, SEM analysis, ppm water content...and on, and on, and on. It's all good data and I suppose it even says something to the lay person who wants to see something. You could do the same thing with metalurgy or bearings or combustion or fuel delivery, ad extremum. But, if you have an engine that was designed properly, manufactured properly, and assembled properly it will provide you with years of reliable, trouble free use for as long as you want to use it, by doing nothing more than using the oil specified by the manufacturer and changing it at the prescribed intervals. Now, of course an engine will eventually wear out with use, but it will also wear out in ways not related to the lubrication system and in time will still need overhaul or replacement. Believe me folks, equipment takes a beating out there. It has to work hard in conditions that would make some of you stand up and stare, and do it with very little maintenance because some owners just don't go there. However, if you are a company in the business of making cars or trucks or tractors or airplanes or engines or whatever, and you want your equipment to hold up out there in the real world, you got to design, manufacture and prescibe maintence schedules to the lowest common denominator. If you build engines that only hold up under ideal conditions and pampered usage, well you better get yourself into another line of business 'cause aint nobody going to buy your stuff. In summary, if an engine craps out before its time under proper maintenace and normal usage, it's the engine my friends and no amount of praying to the oil gods is gonna save it. ....

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Mario DeBartolo
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1999-12-28          11540

Hi all

Write me if you need a larger copy of the wear chart comparing plastic to dino, without and with 10 -15% additive.

mario

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rmunn
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1999-12-30          11613

Gentlemen, I do not wish to beat a dead horse here, but I have been following this thread looking for opinions on the 'synthetic blends' which seem to be common now. Are these hybrids a viable option? My last change I chose a local 10w-30 S/B. I plan to change on schedule for ordinary dino. The cost difference between oils was minor. Is it really possible to have the best of both worlds? Are blends something to avoid? Best wishes to all in the new year! ....

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