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hillbillyATC-110
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2002-04-29          37933

I 've never had a quad that could go as many places as my ATC-200es.

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DRankin
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2002-04-29          37946

You are right, especially if you consider how often three wheelers sent their riders to the head trauma units. I worked in and around hospitals in Alaska in the late seventies and early eighties and we had thousands of those things running around the state. I lost count of the head cases I saw or heard about from a 3 wheeler flipping over it's front wheel. Kids were the usual victims, although even if you drove one slowly and sanely, they were still prone to go head over tea kettle if you were going downhill and hit a rock that turned the front wheel. If you still have one of those old things, I hope you also own a helmet. ....

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Peters
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2002-05-01          38025

It seems to me that the 3 wheel tractors had about as many problems. ....

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DRankin
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2002-05-01          38031

Yup. Been there, done that. ....

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JimMO
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2002-05-28          39110

Nothing better than a nice cup of coffee and a severe slap in the face from some loony lefty who is only trying to protect you from yourself.

It's pretty obvious to all of us that hillbilly is some neanderthal that just doesn't get it.

We can thank our lucky stars that Mark is around to save us.

I, too, live in Alaska and drive a 3 wheeler even though its getting harder and harder to find parts. The government has determined that it is unsafe to ride a 3 wheeler and consequently they haven't been sold since 1986.
For some reason I just don't get, the protectors of humanity, always blame they tool and not the user. Almost sounds like another issue we hear a lot about today, guns and how evil they are.

Here are some conclusions from the Consumer Product Safety Commision concerning 3 and 4 wheel ATV's.

The ten-year CPSC study revealed that many ATV-related fatalities were caused by improper use of Off-Road Vehicles. Nancy Minard, President of North Carolina's Off-Road Vehicle Association (NOVA), put the statistics in perspective. "People sometimes use them improperly, but if you use them for what they were designed to do, they are perfectly safe." Indeed, the CPSC's own statistics support her. The majority of fatalities were caused by circumstances which were entirely unrelated to design. For example, 608 of the reported 3411 fatalities involved collisions with other vehicles. Most of those were cars, jeeps, dune buggies, or pick-up trucks. 31 involved collisions with trains, 4 with tractor-trailers, another 4 with tractors, 2 with buses, 2 with motor homes, and 1 with a police car. Other fatal collisions involved a skid loader, a parked dump truck, a parked wagon, a hay wagon, a field roller, boat trailer, and a hay bailer. Five children died when quads ran over their go-carts. 15 deaths were caused by collisions with other ATVs or dirt bikes.

Other fatalities were caused by a victim's negligence or misuse of his ATV. Seven riders died when they struck mailboxes. Others perished when their ATVs ran into an oil tank, a manure pile, fire hydrant, goat pen, barn, tombstones, a porch, or a speed bump. Three died when a weapon they were carrying on their ATV discharged accidentally. One of those involved a cross-bow. At least 4 were electrocuted when they touched a live electrical wire. Obviously, those tragedies were not caused by ATV design.

Lack of caution was an obvious cause of many fatalities. A large number of riders died when they collided with logs, utility poles, fences, and railroad ties. The second most frequent cause of death involved collisions with trees (387 fatalities). Even some of those were bizarre, with at least one rider being impaled by a tree limb, making a macabre trail marker.

Very few riders (5) perished because of mechanical malfunctions. 2 died after their ride lost a wheel, 1 when his throttle stuck, 1 from an axle malfunction, and 1 when his trailer disengaged. More riders (13) died in collisions with animals. Seven (7) died in collisions with dogs, 2 with deer, 2 with horses, and 2 with cows. Nature took her toll in other ways. 18 ATVers drowned when their machines feel through broken ice into freezing water.

Many other deaths may have been caused by maliciousness. 58 riders perished when they struck a rope, cable, wire, or a barbed-wire strand that was strewn across the trail. Many of those (at least 10) were strewn at neck height.

The unsafe practice of doubling resulted in a number of other fatalities. 467 passengers died in various ways (13.6% of all ATV-related deaths), including falling into rocks, trees, or being run over by following quads, among other things. The CPSC study also included bystanders' deaths, 6 in mishaps involving three-wheelers and 4 with quads.

The Commission's report, when scrutinized, does not support the claims of ATV critics. All-Terrain Vehicles are not dangerous when used as intended. CPSC statistics actually show that harm usually follows their misuse, or circumstances which have nothing to do with the machines' design.

By the way, it was also determined that 4 wheelers are not safer than 3 wheelers just differant. I'm sure this gives Mark and his ilk a new direction that will eventually lead to the complete salvation of mankind by doing away with the evil 4 wheeler.
....

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BillBass
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2002-05-28          39114

No matter how you cut it, anything with 3 wheels is inherently less stable than one with 4 wheels, particularly in a turn or on a slope. That said, I completely agree with you that both are safe when operated correctly. Problem is that few are operated correctly. I am sure that vertually every accident is due to operator error. All you have to do is watch 10 people ride them. 1 will be riding along correctly while 9 will be racing like a bat out of hell. A 4 wheeler will add a slight safety margin over a 3 wheeler, but not much. ....

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Peters
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2002-05-28          39117

I would agree with Bill, but might go a little farther. I guess I have never seen one used as intended at least not consistantly. Most of the time I see them racing up and down the road like a car. I am sure they are not intended to do 50 mph on pavement. ....

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TomG
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2002-05-29          39129

Last week I was casting spoons in a beaver pond. I really was doing a better job of entertaining the beaver than interesting the trout, but I knew that would be the case. It was just an excuse to walk a fair bit back in the bush along a gas pipeline.

So, I'm up the creek with the beaver, who are swimming across where I cast the spoon (hmmm wonder where the trout were?) and I hear a 4-wheeler coming up the pipeline. When I get back to the pipeline, my wife tells me there were two people on it and they did a bunch of fishing around getting down and up the rocky banks and across the creek.

They're called 4-wheelers around here even if it's getting hard to remember when they used to be missing a wheel. Three-wheelers are just too dangerous on the bush trails around here and nobody has one anymore. Of course, a passenger on the luggage rack of a 4-wheeler does dangerous in it's own right, but then it's the people not the design that's at fault. Don’t even have to be going 50 mph on a road to be inappropriate.
....

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DRankin
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2002-05-29          39134

So…..JimMO…. Folks on this tractor board are pretty sensible, down to earth folks. Most of us don’t blame the stick when we can see the primate behind it. Those ball caps you wear have adjustments in the back. Maybe you can loosen yours a couple notches and explain to the rest us, who are still bound by the laws of gravity, just how you got face slapping, loony leftist, gun grabbing, savior of mankind and evil four wheeler out of what I wrote above. Just curious. ....

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Murf
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2002-05-29          39135

Tom, I'm going to do something I rarely do, I'm going to disagree with you. At least, with one statement you made. I own a (several actually, I picked up a few for parts) 3 wheeler, a 1985 Honda Big Red, it sits on three of the largest sized tires made for ATV's until recently, they are 25/12-9's. I have owned & operated this machine since 1985. In all of that time the ONLY time it has been off it's wheels it was done intentionally, to get over/through/around/across a tricky piece of Canadian real estate. I have ridden with & on MANY 4 wheelers over the years, my trusty old 3 wheeler has ALWAYS (much to the chagrin of people who spent $10+k. on new 'ultimate' 4 wheelers) outperformed them all, it is far more stable (IMHO) AT THE APPROPRIATE SPEED than anything else I have found yet. Notice I refered to speed. At proper speed, hitting an obstacle with the front wheel causes a bump, but an even dependable bump, no sideways twisting like when you hit an obstacle with just 1 front wheel of a 4 wheeler. Besides all that, my machine at just over 1/3 the weight of the average 4 wheeler goes easily OVER areas that a 4 wheeler has to chew the h--- out of to get THROUGH. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but for my money, I will continue to 'tread' lightly (and very cheaply....) As always... Best of luck. ....

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BillMullens
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2002-05-29          39141

Back when I was young and invulnerable, I rode dirt bikes. A lot. Every day, if it wasn't snowing, and sometimes when it was. I rode sometimes with friends of mine, that preferred 3-wheelers (trikes, we call them.) We didn't stick to the front yard, or the driveway, or the paved roads. No, we liked to get the furthest away from others as we could, and the rougher the country, the better. And even though I am very uncomfortable on trikes, my friends were good on them. They could go places I couldn't, could carry food and gear if they wanted, and could almost keep up in the fast stretches. It would be unsafe for me to ride the way they did, but they did it for years, and never got hurt. In fact, one of the faster ones never wrecked his trike (350X) in all those years! He still gets riled up if you mention that 3-wheelers are not safe. Of course, I refuse to go near his truck when his trike is in the back, I'm afraid it might roll out of there and kill me. At least that is what I tell him.
By the way, the side hill stability issue is a little silly. Put a motorcycle on the side of hill and let go of it, it falls right over. Level ground, too. Riding is a dynamic process.
Bill ....

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Paul Fox
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2002-05-29          39152

The argument on 3-wheelers vs. 4-wheelers can be summed up in one of my favorite observations (I forget who it's credited to): "Just as soon as you think you've developed an idiot-proof device, they'll invent a better idiot."

I don't believe for a second that three-wheelers are inherently unsafe. A sufficiently talented idiot could kill him- (or her-) self while driving a tank.

It's my personal opinion that the Saftey Nazis are not doing the gene pool any favors by protecting idiots from themselves with all their legislation. ....

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JimMO
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2002-05-29          39160

Well...Mark....maybe it was the subtle way you infered that "3 wheelers sent there riders to the hospital". Most logical/rational people realize that that just doesn't happen. (this is probably where I got the loony lefty idea) The only analogy I can relate this too is the same illogical argument that anti-gun loonies use to describe guns killing people.
This type of argument has been espoused over and over again by the safety Nazis, as described by Paul, until people don't even think twice about it when they see it. It has become ingrained in our day to day life. People need to take a stand when they see this lunacy or, as I said in my previous post, we will lose everything we cherish. Even if its just a 3/4 wheeler.
You need to read your own post Mark. If you can't see what I describe in it (savior of mankind-wear a helmet so you don't get hurt-I can't believe you still own one of those old things, especially after the government decided they were not safe) then you are the problem.
Paul hit it right on the head with his comment about the gene pool. We just don't need more people telling us how to live our lives.
By the way Mark, I don't wear hats. ....

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Peters
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2002-05-29          39167

Given the fact that 3 wheelers and 4 wheelers can be safe if used by properly trained personal in a proper manner.
I beg to wonder if 1/100 the auto fatality per year is reasonable? Do people in this country travel 1 hundrenth the distance on these ATV's in a year? Not nearly.
I am not highly concerned that there are 350 fatalities per year purging the gene pool. It costs relatively little to plant the remains. I am more concerned with the higher number that are injured for life that I am forced to pay for through my insurance and taxes. This is despite the fact that I did not buy, encourage or participate in the riding of these machines in any way.
Despite this I have 4 ATV's, 3 have 4 legs and are commonly called horses, the other is green and doubles to clean up after the 4 legged ones. I am not sure that the 4 legged ones are any safer to the unskilled than the 4 wheeled variety. Again training and skill are required to operate safely. ....

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DRankin
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2002-05-29          39170

Yup, I think it is wise to wear a helmet when riding any atv or bicycle. I will not remove the ROPS from my Deere and after all these years of shooting I even wear ear muffs when I drive my tractor or start a lawn mower. I have lost enough hearing. If I have gone over the edge (to the dark side), please tell me where to turn in my NRA card, my Rush Limbaugh T shirt and my picture of Ronald Reagan. ....

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TomG
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2002-05-30          39176

I’m happy enough to hear support for 3-wheelers even if it doesn't quite match the ideas around here. The last 3-wheeler disappeared about 3 years ago. Could be that what people really want is 4wd, and I don't know if 4wd vs. 2wd drive could be made into a serious safety issue or not. I'll think about it.

Back in my beginning days of dirt biking in Colorado (I moved to Michigan and didn't get too far past beginning) I took a spill and still can see the scar if I look closely. At moderate speed, I came over a rise in a jeep trail. There was a wash just over the top that jeeps had seriously rutted. The front wheel went into a rut, which pulled the rear wheel into the rut as well. The bike went along banging from side to side in the rut until the trail took a slight bend. The bike popped out of the rut and pitched me over the handlebars. The scar came from my sliding along the rocks on my elbows--wouldn't have happened in leather.

Anyway, that's how I think of one-wheel steering. Don't know if my slide along the trail would have happened with 3 wheels or with 4 wheels, but 4 seems like a better idea. We might even get a 4-wheeler, but the idea of a two-person mule type seems better. The main use would be to get our canoe into some remote areas. Canoes go on racks on top of 4-wheelers around here. With the weight of our pig of a white-water canoe overhead, I think a four-wheel platform would be preferable.
....

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pbenven
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2002-05-31          39203

I have a 1982 Honda Big Red. This thing just won't die. I use it to get from my pick-up truck to my hunting and fishing camp (about 300 yards). It's not that you couldn't get there on foot - you wouldn't want to. The trail is muddy and often flooded and would be very difficult to navigate with 80Lbs of gear on your back. Mind you, if you did decide to walk it, you would probably arrive before me on my ATC. I keep it in LOW 1, and let the machine work. There is something very satisfying about creeping along on a vehicle in a trail that would otherwise swallow you up, knowing (feeling anyway) that you are unstoppable.

I also use it to get to my moose hunting stand. Again, nice and slow - I have my rifle in a rack-mounted gun case - don't want to mess up my sights.

Yes, I've had it on two wheels before (pick any two), but it was my fault and I wasn't going fast enough to go any further than that. An understanding of the geometry of the machine and how it will react under certain conditions is an imperative piece of knowledge that is either known ahead of time or is learned very quickly - this applies to most any vehicle. ....

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bigbukhntr
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2002-05-31          39212

never owned a 3 wheeler, but we have (4) 4 wheel ATV's which we use on the property now, my kids ride theirs for enjoyment, and i use one of them to pull my trailer around property (keeps hrs off tractor) and my wife and i use other one to just mainly cruise around (keeps wear and tear off of truck)...my main problem i noticed when i was younger and riding friends 3 wheelers was the fact that many times i saw peoples feet come off the foot pegs and get ran over by the rear wheels..not being careless or anything, just that feet do happen to come off when u hit bumps and feet are very close to rear wheels on 3 wheelers..dont seem to have this problem with the 4 wheelers... ....

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Morgan
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2003-01-12          47384

It's true that 3 wheelers are more dangerous than 4 wheelers, but 4 wheelers are dangerous too. That's why I'm getting a 5 wheeler. ....

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DH83
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2003-01-12          47415

OK,whats a 5 wheeler? ....

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morgan
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2003-01-13          47418

it was a joke ....

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DH83
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2003-01-13          47459

I thought you were talking about JD's old 5 wheeled Gator ....

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cutter
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2003-01-13          47463

As long as you don't expect me to pay your medical bills or support your family when you are incapacitated, I don't care what you ride, wear, drive, sleep with or do for a living. That is (or was) America in a nut shell. I have noticed that "foot in the tire" syndrome on the three wheelers, but I am not experienced with them so it was probably my own fault, much better on two wheels. ....

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BillMullens
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2003-01-14          47479

Cutter,
The way I heard that explained was that people with motorcycle experience that may be used to putting a leg down in corners, would run over themself with a 3-wheeler (I've seen it happen). Somebody that hadn't ridden a motorcycle at all didn't have the propensity to put a leg down, so they were OK. My friends that rode the trikes a lot had never ridden motorcycles, they never got hurt. I used to kid them, though: "Three wheelers: one more than you want, one less than you need."
Bill ....

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StephenR
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2003-01-14          47489

Mark,
I knew you were one of the "Good Guys". LOL. ....

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Morgan
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2003-01-15          47573

What we need is a good 3 wheeler with training wheels in the front.

A 5 wheeler! ....

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dbear
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2003-01-26          48183

I think some poeple would have the only safe, 100% government approved ATV be an engine-less, wheel-less device called a chair!!! Take responsibility for, and accept the consequences of, your own actions. ....

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soarkrebel
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2003-01-26          48227

I have had three wheelers and the first time i rode a four wheel drive four wheeler i bought it. i sold the three and never looked back.
But i have seen two wheel drive four wheelers go anywhere a four wheel drive will go with the right tires.and rider of course.
yeah those three wheeler would go but on my four wd with 26" super swampers i don't have to get off and lift the rear end to get off stuff! ....

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hockeyhead
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2003-10-22          66762

we, just this passed weekend had two girls dump their three wheeler turning into my drive, no serious injuries just some painful road rash. they were following my daughter who was riding her 4-wheeler back to my house. 3-wheelers plow forward when turning and that centered front wheel is a perfect pivet point to roll it over when that front wheel does bite in a turn. AGAIN WHAT ARE THE ADVANTAGES OF A 3-WHEELER OVER A 4-WHEELER??? ....

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Murf
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2003-10-22          66768

Well, let's see now......

Hockeyhead said "...two girls dump their three wheeler...".

Let's start with the fact that there was never a 3 wheeler, or until last year, even a four wheeler which was designed for two person riding.

Next there's the allusion to "...turning into my drive...", I can't think of a good reason for operating a OFF-ROAD vehicle on a street. Maybe since it rolled it was being operated a little too fast also ? The "road rash" comment leads me to think there was a little too much forward momentum.

The advantages are many, starting with the fact that at the time these things were built they were designed to be as absolutely light as possible to reduce environmental damage and allow them to gain access to places where nothing else could go. They did it very well.

If you go to some of these places today, and I know because I do on a regular basis, people who depend on ATV's for 'regular' transportation will tell you that no 4 wheeler is as good at crossing tough terrain, as gentle on the terrain, or as nimble as a 3 wheeler. Then there's the issue of fuel economy and the range a machine can cover on a tank of fuel.

Of course these people will also tell you that "those stupid drunk fools down south screwed it up for everyone by killing and maiming themselves doing things they should have known better than to do in the first place".

Like so many other things in life, the biggest problem is the LOOSE NUT at the controls.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2003-10-22          66775

At the risk of being called a homosexual nazi again I'll jump back in here. My original post refereed to children. This post from hockeyhead also refers to kids but does not specify ages.

When legal driving age was established years ago, age 16 was not just pulled out of a hat. Studies showed that there is insufficient brain development prior to that age to safely operate a moving vehicle, especially at any sort of speed.

The problem centers around the inability to look forward and anticipate the need to stop or turn in the moments ahead. Instead, life appears to be rushing at the child, especially at any sort of speed, and they simply hit things that are easily avoidable to adults.

How many times have you seen a really small child walk right into a piece of furniture? The brain does not fully develop the ability to avoid that problem until around age sixteen for most kids.

When we as adults drink too much we regress back through those stages of development and at a certain point we start running into walls again. If we keep drinking past that point we end up crawling and soiling our britches too.

So here I go again....... don't put your children on any sort of motorized equipment until they are ready. And even then make sure the speeds at which they ride stay on the low side and make sure they are wearing helmets.

Now I just have to wait for some 40 year old to tell me what a pinko-commie gun grabber a$$#*le I am for pointing out plain facts.

....

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Chief
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2003-10-22          66777

Mark, 16 years old and enough brain development????????? ;-)
Maybe in some very few cases. For most males it is more like 28. I told my daughters no dating until they are 24! ;-) Girls seem to develop common sense sooner than the boys. Just kiddin'...... I am sure I will have that bridge shoved up my kazzoo when the time comes!

I have seen so many times where parent just turn their carpet monsters loose with no supervision on these ATV's. Really makes no difference where they are 2,3, or 4 wheel ATV's.......... if they are driven by an irresponsible idiot or and unsupervised child in a manor they were not designed for, bad results happen. Murf summed it up with "loose nut behind the wheel". This applies to what are now called PWC's but I call PWT's. (Personal Water Turds)

Mark, if it will make you feel better if I tell you what a a pinko-commie gun grabber a$$#*le you are, I can. ;-) I've been a Benefactor Life Member of the NRA for many years and listened to Rush for as long as he has been on the air. We can both go turn in our membership cards and T-shirts together. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-10-23          66909

I have more off-road experience than most people. I raced unlimited motorcycles in the California Desert and have been to Baja Mexico a few times.

The serious accidents that I have seen on three wheelers have all come when they started to tip to the outside of a turn and a person puts their outside foot down to stop the roll and the rear wheel runs up their leg. I have seen this type of accident several times. I expect that the accident would have been less damaging if the "world had just rushed at the rider" and they had not planted a foot in the path of the oncoming rear wheel.

I agree with Murf about the three wheelers and the minimal damage, but that is directly related to vehicle weight and tire patch area. You could easily accomplish the same thing on a four wheeler with large wide tires. There are six wheel ATVs that use skid steer that also use balloon tires that I expect are pretty light on terrain. (Except for skid steering)

I do not know why the factories use smaller tires on current 4 wheelers. But, I do know that the three wheelers that I have seen in the Baja races had all switched to small tires. At the time, I was used to seeing the three wheelers with the big balloon tires and the small wheeled racers really looked different. I don't know the reason for the small tires in these circumstances either, but racers don't usually adopt a losing strategy. ....

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Murf
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2003-10-23          66919

The small wheels are purely physics at play. Smaller tires have smaller contact patches, therefore they contact the ground under greater load, the greater loading equates to better traction. In racing of course traction equates to better speed, acceleration and handling (especially in high speed corners).

Environmental concerns such as high flotation and limiting tire spin is of little concern compared to getting there first.

The 3 wheeler we ran in the arctic was a odd little thing, it was really wide in the back and ran fairly small tires in width, but quite tall. The logic was taller tires gave higher speeds at lower rev's, giving higher travel speeds and better fuel economy, they also rolled over ridges and such better. Since their world is fairly flat hill-climbing and deep torque was of no concern to them.

Let me tell you 65 mph across frozen tundra is quite thrill, especially when the nearest hospital is 1000 miles away, and it only has 4 beds.....

My comment about limited damage from the tires is actaully something which is nearly impossible to replicate with a 4 wheeler. If you are travelling at a slow, sane speed, it is VERY easy to lean to the outside and lift the inside wheel up slightly, at which point the live axle becomes a moot point since the inner whell is spinning in the air, not chewing up the ground. Steering & throttle manipulation makes this remarkably easy to do with very little practice. A 4 wheeler wouldn't be able to do this, the geometry of the suspension keps all 4 wheels on the ground.

Best of luck. ....

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AC5ZO
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-10-23          66923

I had not really thought about this before. Three wheelers have never been something I was interested in. I was just relaying my observations.

Murf, I imagine that you are right. In thinking about it a little further, I also expect that the smaller wheels enable longer suspension travel while lowering the CG for better high speed turning. The smaller tires would also have stiffer sidewalls and less tendency to roll under the wheel in a turn. These are all good things in a racing vehicle.

I had never read this thread before it popped up again. I now understand some of the references in the previous posts. I was probably just beginning to look at this board when this started, and I was only interested in the NH tractor section at that time. Mark, I can honestly say that I would NEVER peg you as a gun grabbing left leaning homosexual nazi. ;-) ....

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Murf
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2003-10-24          66961

I suppose if Mark were were riding a 3 wheeler and had to make a hard right turn to avoid running into a bear or cougar he might be just a little bit left-leaning and gun-grabbing... but it would be perfectly understandable given the circumstances, ROFLMAO.


As for the homosexual nazi part, NEVER!!


Best of luck. ....

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hockeyhead
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2003-10-25          67042

valid points murf, In the area I live in 4-wheelers, dirt bikes, mini-bikes,go-carts and the latest craze golf carts are used as basic transpartation, mostly by children between 11 and 17 years old. As the closest homes are 400ft apart and the nearest paved road is 5 miles away, there are a few established trails and all the kids know to stay out of the fields with crops so the kids ride the road edge back and forth to their friends homes. Now 3-wheeler were originally marketed as some kind of dirt,trail bike. Built to perform on un-improve land at a rate of speed to induce a thrill, just as a very large segment of 4-wheelers are today. Their demise came when the public opinion believed they were more dangerous than a dirt bike,thus the 4-wheeler was born. Also certainly the 13 year old driving that 3-wheeler took that turn to fast for that machine and the higher center of gravity with two riders was a factor but she was not moving at 20 plus mph more like 12 or 15 mph and probably braked late. The fact that one of our TRX-300s made that same turn just before was startling, but that 3-wheeler will dust any of my 4-wheelers in a flat out drag race. That much power and that unstable?? anyway I'd read this forum when I first signed up and when it became active again and then the tumble in my drive ,anyway thats my .02 worth.
also the best time I ever had riding 4-wheelers by far was in the foothills surounding Kingman AZ. (sister lives there) and my brother-in-law took me on this ATV day trip sponsered by the local ATV club great rocky climb atleast 20 machines in our group and no 3-wheelers all
4-wheelers, most water cooled, I need more convincing ....

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