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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Yanmar Tractors Forum

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 10-29-2002, 19:52 Post: 44398
Southerner



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 Yanmar 3000 hydrolics

Hello all, I am new to the forum. I have a Yanmar 3000 that has had a Bushhog brand front end loader added.With the addition of a loader,where should the oil level on the dipstick be? I would asume that more hydrolic oil would be needed to operate the extra equipment. Should the oil level be checked with the loader fully raised? Also I have a question concerning using the three point and the bucket at the same time. It seems to put the system in stess. Is there a rule of the thumb about doing this? Thanks, Tony






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 10-29-2002, 21:03 Post: 44402
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 Yanmar 3000 hydrolics

Welcome aboard!
I don't have enough hands to run the loader and the 3 pt at the same time, since on both of my tractors all those controls are grouped together on the right side. But I can imagine there is only so much oil pressure and flow in the hydraulic system. If you split it up too many ways something has to slow down. So I guess the rule of thumb is to run one thing at a time.

I would check the level of hydraulic fluid with everything at rest (on the ground) and the engine off. If you are between the hash marks on the dip stick then you are good to go. Once all the lines and cylinders are purged of air then the fluid just cycles through the system.

Reference your question on the other posting: Your 3 pt hitch raises by virtue of hydraulic pressure, so it “powers up”. But when it goes down, it drops by gravity, and purges hydraulic oil as it falls. The valve beneath the seat on most tractors acts like a faucet or valve for the hydraulic fluid in the 3 pt system. If the knob is closed tight, the oil has nowhere to go, and the lift arms are locked in place and will not lower. If you crack the valve open and activate the lowering lever, it will lower very slowly (depending on the amount of weight the lift arms are supporting). If you open it more, the rate of fall increases, and if there is a lot of weight on the 3 pt arms, it can fall so fast that it can damage concrete slabs or the implement itself.






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 10-30-2002, 07:22 Post: 44427
TomG

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 Yanmar 3000 hydrolics

As Mark notes, the hydraulic oil level is checked and topped up with all cylinders retracted.

The reservoir is designed to have enough reserve to operate cylinders during operation. However, it doesn't take as much oil and retracting the cylinders doesn't change the level as might be thought. Most hydraulics except the 3ph use double acting cylinders that are powered in both directions. When they move in one direction oil is pumped into the cylinder, but oil that is on the other side of the piston is displaced and returns to the reservoir. However, charging new cylinders does take oil and it's good to remember checking the oil after charging a new implement.

There really isn't much chance of overloading the hydraulic system. It is protected by a system pressure relief valve and also safety relief valves. Many loader equipped tractors use something called a power-beyond hook up. The loader is in series with and ahead of the 3ph. Operating a loader control blocks the oil from going to the 3ph so it won't lift when the loader is lifting. When neither the loader nor the 3ph is lifting there is little pressure on the pump. Heavy loads (within the tractor's capability) can be on both the loader and 3ph. High pressures created by the loads are held by their control valves and protected from load shocks by safety relief valves.






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 10-30-2002, 09:25 Post: 44437
DavesTractor



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 Yanmar 3000 hydrolics

It seems to take about a gallon extra with a loader, depending upon the ram size of course. Yanmar recommends that with all the rams fully extended, the fluid level should not be off the dipstick. With the rams retracted, it should not be overfull.

Check to see if you have two hoses or three coming from your loader valve to the tractor. If only two, you are not plumbed in the best manner and your valve is probably just looped into the system without an actual power-beyond set-up. I've installed a lot of loaders, yet many others on this board have a lot more knowledge on hydraulics, so I am in no way expert on this. I can say that the power-beyond set-up is the best way to go on these Yanmars.






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 10-31-2002, 06:05 Post: 44480
TomG

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 Yanmar 3000 hydrolics

Dave brings up a point that I skipped to save space. There is a bunch of reading about power-beyond in the archives.

The loader valve likely has on hose on the inlet section and two on the outlet section. That is a power-beyond hook up and it's important to protect valve components in systems where valves on more than one assembly (including the 3ph) are in series and may be operated simultaneously. Generally power-beyond capability is required in such a setup but I believe there are valves that are built to withstand potentially high pressures in their outlet lines. I think such valves are uncommon though.






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 11-02-2002, 19:18 Post: 44561
Southerner



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 Yanmar 3000 hydrolics

Thanks alot guys. The info helped alot. I am going to ck more into the power beyond set up. Currently my loader valve only has two hoses coming from it.One of the problems I have seen that may be related to the two hose set up is, if I am holding up a heavy implement on the 3pt, the bucket operates alot slower as if in a strain, and that's really what I ment by using both front and rear at the same time.Again thank you much






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 11-03-2002, 06:03 Post: 44565
TomG

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Without power-beyond, what likely is happening is that the loader and the 3ph are both lifting. That forces the pump to try and move both loads at the same time. Using both simultaneously should be avoided unless you know the loader valve is rated for this type of application. Many valve assemblies aren't designed for the pressures that can develop and may be damaged.

How it works in open centred systems is that the loader and 3ph are in series and oil circulates continuously from the pump to the sump. Operating any valve blocks the oil return path to the sump and opens passages to a cylinder. Pressure is developed and the load moves or the pressure relief valve opens.

Most loader cylinders are double-acting. There is oil on both sides of the piston so when the cylinder moves in one direction, oil on the other side of the piston is displaced and has to go somewhere. A PB valve provides a second return line directly to the sump for that oil. Without PB the displaced oil goes into the line that goes on the 3ph. If the 3ph is in lift, then the return line also is blocked at the 3ph and passages to the lift cylinder are open. There's no return path to the sump and the only place for oil to go is moving the loader and 3ph cylinders at the same time.

That's very likely what's going on but there's a good chance that the loader valve is designed for that application. I'd probably just keep what's there but avoid using both at the same time. Going to a PB loader valve would take a new valve assembly and the worst that likely to happen is to ruin the existing one, which could be replaced by PB type if it fails.






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 11-03-2002, 10:02 Post: 44570
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 Yanmar 3000 hydrolics

Sounds like TomG has this figured out.

On the Koyker loaders that we sell, we install Dinoil Joystick valves and use whatever hydraulic kit Koyker recommends for the tractor. Some are PB, and some are not. We have had a couple of tractors without PB in which we could tell that the three-point and the loader were slightly fighting each other in certain situations. However, we have probably installed 60 loaders this year, most without PB and they work fine. I suspect the valve is made to take this load. I have noticed lately though that most of Koyker's newer kits use the same valve, but come with a PB valve and an extra hose. Now we have pressure in to the valve, pressure out to the three-point area, and a hose to the tank. I asked Koyker why they are changing and they mentioned that occasionally they have a problem with the non-PB system, so they are converting most of the kits to PB.

Seems I've added little info to the above, but perhaps it will assist others in plumbing there systems.

A warning though, don't mess around with different ports and hose configurations unless you know what you are doing. If you dead head the pump, you'll damage or ruin it in less than a second. Don't ask me how I know this....






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 11-04-2002, 07:19 Post: 44582
TomG

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Hope I've figured it right, but the explanation is theoretical. I for one would never discount the participation of anybody who's probably installed 100's of loaders. For me, you've confirmed that both type valve assemblies are used by the same manufacturer in the same application.

I don't know the explanation for a tendency to use PB types. Perhaps it's costs. I imagine that a PB valve assembly could be made smaller and maybe cost less since the exhaust galleys don't have to withstand system pressures. Without PB, a 3ph could lift when it's not expected, but I can't see a particular safety issue there. Don't know!

Regarding dead heading the pump: I've heard that the JD power-beyond kit for their back hoes use different sized fittings. That's probably so a hoe can't be connected backwards. I believe a backward connection dead heads the pump and can ruin it in a hurry. Since I run my hoe from a valve controlled rear outlet, I could connect it backwards.

To connect my hoe, I identified which cylinder hose gets pressure when the valve is held forward and the pressure hose for the pump. I used coloured plastic-tie straps on both to make sure I make the right connection. That also means that I have to make sure I don't pull the valve back while the hoe is mounted. It's a connection with some risk I guess.

If there's any doubt which cylinder hose gets pressure, the valve can be operated before connection is made while holding a hose. The one that gets pressure can be felt to stiffen. A practical tip from my dealer to balance out my theory back when I first got the tractor.






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 11-04-2002, 08:27 Post: 44588
Southerner



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 Yanmar 3000 hydrolics

It does sound as though you guys have it figured out.I probably would be better off with a PB valve. I will be doing alot of grading work with this tractor using a box scrape and the loader. While holding up the scraper inorder to pick up the dirt with the loader you can see which line the pressure is in easily. The dealer who put the loader on before I bought the tractor,well, didn't do a very good job.
I have had to rework all the mounting points, replace rubbed lines, and well , if the valve I ended up with was cheaper than the PB valve, that explains it. According to the prievious owner he has put a hydrulic pump on since adding the loader.The pump was over $300. I see that the valve would fail before the pump. This was all great info, thanks again






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