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 09-30-2003, 20:18 Post: 65184
WillieH



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 B5200 DT Noise

Ok boys...I need you to put your thinking caps on for this one. My B5200DT w/FEL has developed a strange noise that is baffling the daylights out of me. It is a rolling noise, that is when the tractor is sitting idle - no noise. It appears to be in the driveline, I think, but appears to "sound off" primarily when driving in reverse, and in high range. When in low range forward or reverse, it will not be heard. At first when it started happening, now two days ago, I could've sworn that it was a hydraulic circuit situation, such as the system had gotten an air block in it, because I was able to listen to it travel from rightside to leftside, and appeared to offer a chatter throughout the control valve and cylinders. Now I am not so sure, as it is only showing up when in high range, primarily in reverse,(though it has happened twice now in forward), and as soon as I decelerate, it slows down to nothing as well - I thought perhaps the beginning of the clutch throw out bearing failing, however, wouldn't the noise be there regardless of direction, speed and /or engagement? I would think that so long as the tractor is running, the throw out would be affected in some capacity. I have checked all fluid levels, grease surfaces, etc. all are upto snuff.
I'm looking for some answers here that will lead me in the right direction. Some things that came to mind first, were such things as the water pump squealing, or the tach cable running dry and squealing,because of the dry harsh-ish low pitch squeal that it makes, but I have ruled them out pretty quick.
It never got beat on or real heavy use, but it has been used often, but always meticulously maintained, cosmetically as well as mechanically - (see pics). This one has got me, and I would rather not continue to run it and have a catastrophic failure with cat. costs if I can help it. What do "we" think?






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 10-01-2003, 06:20 Post: 65208
TomG

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 B5200 DT Noise

Some questions: How many hours on the tractor? When it has happened in foreward gears, has it always been the same foreword gear (1st and reverse often use the same gear)? Are the foreword gears and reverse synchromesh?

It does sound like a drive train problem but some heavy hydraulic lifting when the tractor isn't moving might help eliminate hydraulics as a problem. That it happens only in high range could be a range section problem but more likely is just that the engine puts more torque into the drive train in high range to move the same load. You might test that idea by trying some heavy work in high gear/low range.

The description sounds similar to a problem recently discussed that turned out to be a pilot bearing. Bad throw-out bearings tend to make their noise when the tractor is clutched since that's when they spin. A worn one may rattle when the clutch is out.






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 10-01-2003, 07:42 Post: 65214
WillieH



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 B5200 DT Noise

TomG -
The tractor has 1400 hrs on her now, with never a spit of problems - anywhere or warning, (perhaps this is the warning).

At first I did think a hydraulics problem was the culprit as I could follow (so I thought) the squealy moan through the circuit as mentioned. I worked it in low range with heavy lifting - now noise. I then backed away from the work site in high range, and the noise was present, though weak. Working the hydraulics, hard or easily, there seems to be no noise, and the response is quick and unfaultering.

Whether the 1st gear and reverse gear, use the same gears -I could not say. To the best of my knowledge, this series tractor did NOT have synchromesh transmissions, as "technically" one is suppose to come to a complete stop before shifting to a higher/lower gear select.

- Willie H.






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 10-01-2003, 19:46 Post: 65249
WillieH



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 B5200 DT Noise

Okay...
The noise was intermittent and never long enough to really figure out where it is coming from , other than close to the clutch area.
I lifted the tractor's rear end with the backhoe, and put it in reverse gear. I then put on my stethy' and listened for wierd sounds...figures - nothing.
It seemed to be primarily when I travelled in reverse in high range, so I decided to start out at idle speed (1000rpm) and drive around in reverse until I heard the noise, keeping the stethy' around my neck just in case it came back. When I got the rpm upto about 1800, the noise started to come out. I quickly, still driving in reverse, started to probe the various housings with my stethy' to find the failing area. Well, that was a futile effort -never found a "bad" sound wailing out at me. I then increased the throttle progressively up until the squealy moan was nearly constant. By now I was around 2800 revs. Within five minutes the noise subsided. I continued to cruise in reverse in the back yard plot,hoping to regain the noise. It was gone. After a couple of neighbors came over and stared at me for a bit racing around in reverse, I shut her down and drove back to the garage, without anymore noise,from the tractor or the neighbors (Laughing out loud).
An hour later, I drove her again, with almost an immediate squealy moan, now in forward as well. Unlike before, now as I shift up, I can hear the pitch of the noise go higher as well. OK, I thought we're on to something here. Back and forth driving to decipher where it was coming from...now even when the tranny was in neutral or not it was talking to me. Hmmm, I thought. I'll shut it down and coast down the yard, with the engine off,clutch in and/or out. Sure as shootin', the noise was there. ARRRGH! Still trying to find it. Stay tuned -

- Willie H.






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 10-02-2003, 07:58 Post: 65279
TomG

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 B5200 DT Noise

That sure is a confusing set of symptoms. At one point I though 'Ah ha! Squeal goes up in higher gears; a TX output shaft or diff problem for sure.' I'm not so sure now but it is true that with the TX in neutral, the diff and TX output shafts still rotate and it wouldn't make any difference if the clutch is in or out. If it's happening in forward and reverse gears then the reverse gear isn't likely the problem but the first gear still could be involved.

For a variation on testing you might try several versions of trying to get the squeal with the range in neutral and the TX in gear, the reverse and both in neutral. I don't think that turning the rear wheels will rotate the front section output shaft when the rear (range) section is in neutral. Guess I'm into testing this morning. If it happens when the tractor is sitting still, you might try raising one rear wheel off the ground and letting it spin and then repeat on the other side. That might identify a problem on one side of the diff, but there are some serious safety issues doing this sort of thing. It might be easier just trying to get the noise in hard left and right turns.

Another idea but maybe not an agreeable one is that the tractor may be getting pretty close to needing a clutch so maybe the problem could be sorted out while putting in a new clutch. I also attracted some neighbourly attention driving halfway to town on the shoulder. The explanation as that an exhaust flange bolt broke on my way to getting the truck undercoated. I was trying to get some dirt on the oil before the mechanics worked on it.






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 10-02-2003, 08:08 Post: 65281
Murf

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 B5200 DT Noise

Willie, I think you're right about it being a bearing, however my money is on it being in the 'running gear', likely outboard stuff in a hub, possible in the drive-shafting itself if there is a carrier bearing or u-joint.

Bearings will often make noise only in the direction which is opposite to that which created the problem, in other words if you had a dry bearing (or got some dirt into one) which caused wear while you were driving forwards, which is normal, it would first show up in reverse, and then only when under the most load, at high speed.

Start at the rubber and work you way back to the engine at all four corners, front first, checking EVERY bearing as you go.

I bet you don't have to go far before you find a little play in one.

Best of luck.






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 10-02-2003, 08:14 Post: 65282
TomG

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 B5200 DT Noise

Some neighbourly sport even better than me driving on the shoulder happened yesterday, but maybe not as good as stething a moving tractor. My wife calls the store and asks them to tell me to look around carefully when I get home because there's a bear in the yard. A small bear but my wife hadn't seen the mom. Then the store owner asks if I should pick up anything and my wife mentions some food. Oh fine I say when I get to the store. My wife phones to tell me to watch out for the bears when I get home and also asks me to wade through them while carrying things to eat. The store owner says 'Maybe you could help things along and sprinkle some sardine juiced on your jacket while you're at it.' As it turns out it's a nice cub of a bear and probably an orphan--and still hanging around this morning on its way to becoming our yard bear. Trouble is that it will remember the apple trees where it was creating for pruning for me to do and be back next year and more than twice as big. Well, really no problem as long as it keeps doing normal bear things.






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 10-02-2003, 08:38 Post: 65285
Art White



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 B5200 DT Noise

I think there has been a lot of good info given here Willie, But a tear down probably is in order. It could be the pilot bearing or in side the transmission as suggested by Murf. It would be around the reverse gear shaft area as that is where the load is on the shaft to make the noise to begin with. Just a thought, and this is not for everyone to try but if you have some oil there that is not to dirty add it till it looks like a top shaft bearing would have oil on it rather then splashed and see if it drives the noise out. Don't add more then needed to just get to the top shaft or one to two inches below.






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 10-03-2003, 14:02 Post: 65444
WillieH



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 B5200 DT Noise

Well...I think I found it! It appears after doing some rather obvious troubleshooting, that the noise heard, squealy harsh moan, was found to be able to duplicate by lifting the orange via the FEL, shutting off the tractor, and spinning the front wheels simeltaneously in the same direction. Almost immediately, one could tell where it was coming from. The drive shaft coming from the tranny case to the front axle assembly, drops through a cover tube and boots, that connect with a u-joint yoke, then drives a splined shaft assembly to the front axle. This splined shaft assembly, otherwise called the "spiral bevel gear shaft assembly", houses at the rearside, a seal, bushing, bearing and stake nut to hold all together. The seal was immediately found to be kaput, as the boot housing was filled with gear oil that leaked thru, from the front axle. Upon turning the assembly, even realizing a strong preload, it turned extremely tight, and was/is very harsh feeling - hence the bushing and/or bearing are shot as well. Parts are ordered, then we should be back in gear...so to speak. Thanks to all for the assistance! I'll keep you posted after the parts get in next week sometime.

- Willie H.






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 10-03-2003, 19:25 Post: 65462
Art White



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 B5200 DT Noise

Congrats!!! none of us were right!!! Good find.






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