Go Bottom4 in 1 bucket
 | george, keoke
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2000-11-22 21712
Hi folks, does anybody out there have any experience putting a 4 in 1 bucket on JD 970 with a JD 440 loader. The loader uses a 'regenerative' hydraulic circuit. I understand tying a the 4 way rams into this loader circuit can be complex.thanks,george
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2000-11-23 21729
George, I don't think I understand what you mean by "4 way rams" every 4 in 1 bucket I have ever seen (including my own) only has an extra set of cylinders to open/close the 'clam-shell'. As for 'regenerative', it's a big word that means the fluid goes in a circle, like all the fluid in your tractor, back to the reservoir. All you should need is an extra SCV or control valve like you would use for a remote, to open or close the bucket. By the way, if you want the 4 in 1 for picking up loose material, like straw, brush, or logs, you will be MUCH happier with a 'grapple' on your normal bucket. Any welding/fabricating shop can make you one very easily (read cheap) using some steel 'claws' that pivot from the top of the bucket, closing to meet the cutting edge. Best of luck. ....
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| george, keoke
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2000-11-23 21734
Murph, thanks for the reply. My understanding of a 'regenerative' circuit as used for the bucket means that on the dump move BOTH sides of the ram are pressurized equally instead of only the back or flat side of the piston. However, since the backside has more surface area it tilts, with gravity's help, the bucket. Cutting into this circut with a solenoid valve, triggered by a switch on the joystick, would let you use this same hyd circuit for both tilting the bucket and powering the clam-shell rams alternatively. The upside of this is that you have both the tilt and clamp controls on the joystick. The downside is that the clam-shell rams will also be pressurized on BOTH sides as well, reducing their clamping strength.
The simple solution is just as you say, that is, to add a separate SCV to control the clam-shell rams only. This would give conventional full pressure to one piston side and return to sump on the other. The down side to this is that clamping and tilting of bucket at the same time would require two hands for two separate valve handles.
Hope the above makes sense. I am still trying to figure all this out.
thanks again,
george ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-11-23 21739
I can't believe they would pressurize both sides of a ram, it would create a lot of extra load on the system. Get a hydraulic pressure gauge and a 'tee' and try checking pressures, I think you will find only one side gets pressure at a time. As for the 2 valves and only 1 hand problem, you dont want to rotate the bucket till you have a firm hold of whatever it is you're trying to pickup anyways so position (as long as it's convenient) is not important. ....
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| george, keoke
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2000-11-26 21850
Murph, it seems that on at least the JD 70 series tractors the bucket dump cylinders are pressurized (regenerative) on both piston sides while dumping only. This info is from JD loader tech support. It also seems that Kubota does the same thing on most of their loaders as well.
george ....
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| george, keoke
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2000-11-27 21877
Murf, I forgot to ask you on my last post, but how is the clamshell rams plumbed on you 4 in 1 bucket? Are you using a separete control for the clamshell rams only or are you using a solenoid valve with a thumb switch on the joystick??
thanks again,
george ....
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| Kenny
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 46 sale creek
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2000-11-28 21908
George, the regenerative circuit can be deactivated by simply moving the control lever approximately halfway to the right. this circuit is only on the dump side of the bucket valve. There is even a moveable stop on the valve spool if you want to lock it out altogether. I believe this info is in the operators manual. If not, your dealer should be able to show you the stop in a tech manual. ....
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| george, keoke
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2000-11-28 21911
Kenny, is this info on disabling the re-gen hyd circuit in the JD970 tractor manual or the JD440 loader manual? I also have the shop repair manual on the 970 tractor but not on the loader. If I read you correctly, moving the joystick slightly to the right, but not all the way over, will keep the front side of the bucket piston from being pressurized (non-regen)on dump. Futhermore, we can set a stop on the spool so that we never get far enough over to go into the re-gen circuit at all. Also, does setting the joystick travel to go only partially over slow bucket dump down to a crawl?
Kenny, this is good news, talked to JD tech support and they told me I had a re-gen circuit on dump but did not tell me any of the above. I am in the city now, gotta work, but will get back to the ranch Wed. and check this all out.
I have been wanting to get this 4 and 1 bucket but this re-gen or non-regen business has got thoroughly confused. Check the tractor-bye-net board on this topic to see how we have banging this around.
take care,
george
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-11-29 21923
George, the clamshell cylinders are operated by a seperate SCV, right next to the joystick so that an operator with reasonable size hands can do both at the same time, sort of like the old 4 stick backhoes. The 'new' SCV is in line with the joystick, that is the output from the joystick is the input to the SCV, and the output from the SCV is the return to sump. In this manner the re-gen circuit is not involved at all. Best of luck. ....
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| george, keoke
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2000-12-03 22095
Kenny, you were absolutely correct about the reg-gen circuit not coming on until you get past the half way mark when pushing the joy-stick to the right for dumping. This info is not in the tractor or loader operators manual. The shop manual (I have one) shows that JD uses two different SCV on the 70 series tractors, one with no regen (Japanese) and the other one having both a non-regen and regen capability (USA) built into the same valve. It does explain the difference nor does it say anything about the shift at the half way mark.
Bucket dump time using re-gen is about three time faster then no-regen.
There is an ever so slight detent at the divide mark when moving the stick to the right on dump, unless you know it is there you would not feel it. I have been using this loader for two years and never had a clue it was there.
The upside of all of this is that getting a 4 in 1 bucket plumbed in with a solenoid and thumb switch will be easy. I plan not to use the built in dump stop at first so that I can try for the best of both worlds. If I can't develop the right touch on the stick then I will go with the divider stop.
Thanks for bailing me out,
george
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