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Forums > Active Threads > General Tractor Discussions > Loaders Back Hoes

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subframe vs 3 point

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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 61 NY
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2005-09-05          115952


looking to get a backhoe for my kubota m4900 with la 1002 loader.look at the bradco 511 which is the same as the kubota m4711 hoe .in order to mount the hoe on the sub frame at the 4 points I would have to remove the lower lift arms and vertical suports ever time I hook up .is there different hoes out there that I would not have to remove all these parts for hook up[just another pain in the neck to hook up implements]. my next question is the landpride hoe I saw on the net model 3512,it hooks up on the 3 point lift arms and runs off the loader hydraulic system. but there is a kit also that mount the hoe to the draw bar for more ridge mount are these hoes any good , and is there pros and cons to this type of mounting. need some advise do not know much about these tractor mount hoes thanks

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1539 Moravia, NY
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2005-09-06          115964


There is a pile of info in the archives about this topic.

I tried a 3ph backhoe B4 buying the one that fits my tractor from the factory.

There is no comparison! The 3ph will get the job done but at great risk to your tractor mounting system unless you are extreamly careful. When you get to ruttin on a stump forget careful it is brute force and lots of ripping.

Breaking a lift arm or top link at the transmission mount did not look to be a cheap or easy fix just to save some money or time upfront.

Hoes need to be on the tractor solid. No short cuts!

Yes you are correct taking off the lift arms is a PIA it takes at least 6 whole minutes. Putting back on takes me at least 12 minutes because I take time to inspect the tractor and lube all the connections. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 5111 Northern Nevada
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2005-09-06          115971


Good advice from Harvey.

When it comes to compact tractors, a backhoe with no sub-frame is just asking for trouble. ....

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tractorbrad
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 55 northeast ohio
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2005-09-06          115985


After having used my backhoe for about a year now I'm extremely glad I got a sub frame for the very reasons mentioned in the previous posts. You may say that you'll be real careful and not exert to much force but when you latch onto a stump or big rock the heat of the moment sometimes takes over. On my New Holland TC33D and Rhino backhoe I only have to take off my hydraulic top link which isn't a big deal. ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6885 Waterville New York
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2005-09-06          115999


Don't all those points you just mentioned just have quick clip pins holding those arms on? I still prefer the Kubota as I think pricing is very comparable. ....

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beagle
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Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-09-07          116019


Kubota has both a sub-frmae and 3-pt hoe for my 7800. But..the tractor is already re-inforced at the bell houisng, and there is a different top link mount at the rear axle housing. Hanging a hoe from the 3-pt without the necessary reinforcement is not a good idea. Look at the dipper stick force of the hoe, them look at your top link mount at the rear axle housing. You can see why people on this board recommend against a simple 3-point mount hoe. ....

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dfkrug
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 171 NorCal
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2005-09-07          116040


Even the M4900 should use some form of subframe for a backhoe.

The draw bar connection you saw is probably one of the
methods used to keep a 3-pt mounted hoe from rising when
you have an up force exerted by the hoe.

You are right that some subframes interfere with the
3-pt hitch. So much for "quick-attach".... ....

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subframe vs 3 point

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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 61 NY
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2005-09-07          116042


yes art I have the quick points at hook up but the lower lift arms come off and the veritcal arms that hold the lift arms up also come off or they have to be tied up some how. also the hydraulic hook up comes off the loader valve with a power beyond kit that when it is disconnected you have to connect the 2 points back together for flow.this also makes it not so fast or easy.I am sure you know what it like to change implements everbody looks for faster and easy ways .art can I used one of my remotes for hook up of the backhoe , one is detent from factory and I added the second remote that is the float . when I saw these landpride hoes that 3 point hook up and also clamp to drawbar thought this was something new and maybe good .kully ....

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Art White
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2005-09-08          116063


Just looking at this a little closer if the stabilizer had the bolts removed on the front and a pin set up put in you would have to remove that one, the lower link quick clip(I'd leave the cotter pin out) and the top pin on the drop link and pull them that way. Estimated time probably about 60 seconds per side. The rear hydraulics might do you well but the hoe might need larger lines to really perform to it's best but you should be okay. I'm not totally familiar with the system on the unit you are looking at. ....

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dqdave1
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2005-11-24          119787


I have a woods 7500 backhoe mounted on a NH TC 29d via 3 point. Unit has 1100 hours on it; backhoe is about 700 hours of the total time. Use it to install gas, water and drainage lines. The tractor also has mid mount mower attachments. I have never had any 3 point problems. I have had to get backhoe main assmbly rewelded due to metal fatigue. If you need mid mount brackets the 3 point is the way to go. If you do not need mid mount attachments then use subframe. They take about the same time to remove. ....

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Art White
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Posts: 6885 Waterville New York
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2005-11-24          119799


Kubota's new hoe's subframes don't hinder mid mount attachments and give you the additional mid support to the rear of the tractor. ....

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charlieK
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 109 kentucky
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2005-11-24          119801


kubota's new hoe's subframes don't hinder midmount attachments---and I wish I had it that way---I have a woods 7500 BH on a L3130GST w/680 hrs. have had no problems except there is too much slop in the hole where the pin connects---soo I ordered TL bks. from Ronnie Bowman and he said that Kubota does not make heavy duty or reinforced TL bks. for the L3130. Tomorrow I am to receive from Tim Honeycutt at Carver equip. a HDTL bkt. & shop manual via UPS. will post results Chas. ....

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charlieK
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 109 kentucky
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2005-12-05          120483


rec'd HDTL bkt. from carver for a L2500---sent it back---rec'd another a couple wks. later but me and four of my neighbors can't figure out how to install it--did not send any instructions or hardware [nuts, bolts washers] called Tim--he said instructions would be with the shop manual which is on 2 wks. back order--will post again. Chas. ....

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lbrown59
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 931 First Organized Permanent Settlement In The Northwest Territory.
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2005-12-06          120496


A 3 point hoe is dangerous if operated without a ROPS ....

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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2005-12-06          120499


A 3ph hoe can be dangerous with a ROPS...I've seen at least one report where the 'hoe operator was crushed against the ROPS when the 3ph was (accidentally?) activated.

Also, if your 3ph backhoe doesn't have a seatbelt, it would be a toss-up whether or not the ROPS would do you any good when you were on the hoe. Now if you're just talking about driving the tractor with the hoe attached, a person should have the ROPS and seatbelt on.

Good luck,
Bill ....

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subframe vs 3 point

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6885 Waterville New York
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2005-12-06          120505


Bill many years ago the hoe's didn't have rigid top links and that was a problem but they have since all come with a rigid top link which has eliminated the ability to do that. Are they as tight as a subrame? No but they have worked for years and depending on the amount of use have worked for many applications. ....

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BillMullens
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 649 Central West Virginia
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2005-12-06          120529


Hi, Art. Long time.

As you may recall I built a CadPlans 3ph mounted hoe and have used it a lot. A 3ph hoe may not be right for everybody, but I would make the same decision again.

Anyway, mine is mounted just like any other 3ph implement; although it would take a specific sequence of events, most likely involving two people, to raise the 3ph while somebody was sitting on the backhoe, it would be possible in my case. I did fabricate a "hold-down" link that attaches to the tractor drawbar that makes it impossible to lift the 3ph and also prevents the backhoe from lifting itself and the operator up (as the 3ph has no downpressure); but really only use it on challenging hoe work.

I haven't looked at the factory 3ph hoes in a few years, but recall seeing some that were set up like mine - had a chain or link holding the hoe down.

I've checked mine to be sure that with the ROPS either up or down, I don't see how I could be caught between the hoe and the ROPS when seated on the hoe.

Be good,
Bill ....

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Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 6885 Waterville New York
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2005-12-06          120549


Bill I remember you building that and I've always been a little sceptical of those as well as the loaders and I'm glad to hear you are having good luck with it. As with all tools it does well to know their limits and building the piece makes it easy! Or fixing them! Their were many hoe's built in the sixties that hooked up just like yours and I'm very familiar with them and have a good amount of hours on them in clay. I remember when it was in the spring and I had a heavier coat on and the sides keep catching the draft control while I was reaching over to move the tractor and nearly evicting me with big hic-ups as the chain would tighten and then drop two inches. Some of the earliest ones you had to virtually leave unchained as the legs were fixed. Most factory built units are really quite specific with different completing packages to be sure there are no accidents. ....

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dfkrug
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2005-12-07          120604


The factory hoes that come with 3-pt connections generally
come with a very hefty toplink and 2 side brackets that connect to the middle of the toplink and the ends of the lower 3-pt lift arm (or near it). This "triangulation" makes a rigid connection to the tractor which keeps the 3-pt arms from lifting. Some people leave these side brackets off. That is a BIG mistake as these hoes can toss
a CUT around like a toy.

As for CharlieK's L3130, Woods makes a "4-point" subframe that is very nice and is used for the 7500. Unfortunately, it sells for about $950 and takes months to get. This subframe seems to be used on the new Woods BH80X backhoes, too. ....

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charlieK
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 109 kentucky
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2005-12-08          120704


the kubota L3130 has a lowering speed knob which can be adjusted to control the speed of the 3ph. it has a fast, slow and lock. ya need to put it on the lock position so the 3ph can't be raised, especially when the bh is attached. I suppose it still could be "accidentally" raised although highly unlikely. WOODS 7500 BH has a optional Saf-T-Lok Limiter Kit, which I have, to keep the 3ph arms from moving. Am wanting a HDTL bkt. for my tractor and it seems to be a real PITA to get. I recently put the BH on and forgot to put the knob in the lock position. THAT IS WHY I READ THIS THREAD---KEEPS ME ALERT.... ....

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dfkrug
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 171 NorCal
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2005-12-11          120873


The L3130 has a 3-pt lift lock? First I heard of it. A great idea! I almost bought one of those tractors....

Anyway, the 3130 is WAY more heavy duty in the 3-pt and
rear end area than the L2500, a "budget" L-series machine. ....

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charlieK
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Posts: 109 kentucky
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2006-01-20          123140


today,20 jan., finally rec'd workshop manual from carver equip.--25 dollars freight!-- and it seems to be a copy of the original and no binding--just 8X11 sheets of paper for the L3130GST which includes all the grand L's. anyway I called Tim again concerning my HDTL bkt. that attaches to my tractor and why I haven't rec'd any instructions to apply the bkt. He finally admitted the HDTL bkt. will not fit my tractor. soooo I sent it back. Ronnie Bowman was right. Kubota does not make a HDTL bkt. for the L3130 or any grand L. seems those tractors are heavy enough w/o a reinforced bkt. chas. ....

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Art White
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2006-01-21          123198


I haven't seen one in the price books yet, took me a bit to figure out the abbreviation. ....

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subframe vs 3 point

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DRankin
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2006-01-21          123205


I can't follow it..... what does it mean? ....

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Art White
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2006-01-22          123250


I believe it is a heavy duty top link bracket. ....

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charlieK
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2006-01-23          123332


yes HDTL bkt. is heavy duty top link bkt. am getting more concerned about my BH attachment--WOODS 7500--3PH--on my L3130 it has egged out the middle hole in the top link bkt. that attaches to the tractor-- bought a new one from tractor point "Ronnie Bowman" and had my old one modified at machine shop w/hardened inserts--been in contact w/CARVER EQUIP. since early nov. on a HDTL bkt. they sent me two-- had to send both back no such animal PITA--chas. ....

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WillieH
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2006-01-24          123346


Acronyms...gotta love'm !

CharlieK-
I have seen many toplink brackets (all colors) come in, from damage or wear from using a backhoe - with a 3pt set up as well as with a subframe set up. I have been using my Woods 650 for nearly twenty years, as a 3pt set up. This past project involved digging and ripping out several pine, cherry, birch, and maple stumps --- without damage.

Although I believe / agree that the time element is pretty much an even wash from one way to the other, I think, from what I have seen, that the vast majority of damage that occurs, is in fact as you described, on the top link bracket. I am curious as to where the damage was on yours.

Was it front to back wear, or top and bottom wear of the pin hole? (Maybe you have mentioned it already in a previous thread, sorry if I missed it)
The reason I ask is that when I see the damage come into my shop, the unit has been used in a real herky-jerky fashion typically caused by excessive hydraulic power (engine revs or pto speed). Then the lower draw arm turnbuckles slowly loosen, causing the unit to sway upon every pull or tug or even relocation. Then the top link eggs slightly, and the whole thing exaggerates upon itself until something either breaks off or rips out. with a 3pt, this wear is usuually seen readily as side to side wear of the pin hole.

On the flipside, I have seen front and back wear from a subframe mounting, including shearing off the lower pin of the backhoe! That really amazes me.

I know we ALL have those moments when we are sitting in the backhoe seat, and rip at roots or yank on rocks with every moment remarking to oneself, "Wow, this thing really WORKS!". I know ...lol...I've been there many a time!
Just curious if you have noticed any looseness or excess play on your lower arms when the 7500 is mounted.

-Willie H ....

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charlieK
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2006-01-24          123432


my TL pin hole on the tractor was egged out front to back--enough to cause the "herky-jerky" w/7500 BH--when this happens, one should conclude something is wrong-- I have never run my BH at 540 rpm's nor do I ever aim to. I am not and don't want to be good enough to run it that fast. that said I haven't babied it either nor mistreated it. I don't have 20 yrs experience like you WillieH, only 5. had a L3000DT w/same BH 2 yrs. and bought new L3130GST 3 yrs. ago and kept BH. ans. to your other question, my lower arms are not loose and no excessive play. I have a " Saf-T-Lok" Limiter Kit from Woods but it is still a 3PHBH and one of the points is the TL pin hole. If you don't have a "Saf-T-Lok" on your 6500, I advise you to get one--just constructive critizism here. also one of the pins on the BH bent towards the tractor a while back. used a 16 lb. mall and straightened it back. on conclusion I can't imagine using a BH with just the 3 point hitch alone. a subframe or 4PH would be nice, but not for me. Chas. ....

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WillieH
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2006-01-24          123435


CharlieK -
Thanks for the heads up on the limiter. I trust by your statement about 540pto, that you are running off the tractor hydraulics (?), rather than an independent hydr. pump on the pto. What I have noticed, and am sure as many will disagree as agree with me, that you can have the pto pump deliver very little flow or quite extreme flow. Pump size and tractor size have key roles in it at the least. Every tractor has their own personality besides.

I have had a pto pump (self contained I believe the correct jargon is) since day one. I certainly had to learn / realize where to have the engine speed set for maximum performance, but usually it behaves the best just high of the idle, around 1400 revs, with this orange. Never had a problem of excessive umph with it - it just works great.

I will check into the limiter. When I acquired my hoe, these devices were not around yet - or at least not pushed for performance/stability purposes.

Thanks -
- Willie H ....

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