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 | beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan 
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2004-01-30 75504
I'm working on a rear hydraulic setup for my 7800. The different threads for hydraulic fittings can drive you nuts. The prince valve I'm looking at has SAE #8 and SAE #10 ports. Im Familiar with STOR, JIC, and NPTF fittings. Does anyone know where I can get information on what SAE #'s refer to. Thanks
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 | TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2004-01-31 75537
The numbers probably are DASH sizes and SAE would be a standard for the construction, threads etc. The link below has some information. The tables I have give thread size and type by DASH size but the specs are different for o-ring boss and o-ring flat face connectors. The complications never end in this buz. ....
Link: hydraulic fittings
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-01-31 75538
Thanks, I think this helps. I'm sure I'll have a few left over fittings when this is done. ....
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| MadRefereee
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 23 New Hampshire 
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2004-01-31 75594
Yep, those Prince SV valves have SAE-8 work ports. I purchased SAE-8 to 3/8 NPT adaptors at a hydraulic shop and used 3/8 NPT for all other connections. 3/8 NPT fittings are readily available, even Kubota uses them. BTW, the threads on the tank return under the seat are 3/8 NPT. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-02-02 75784
Yep, I think I've got it. I'm sure I'll still have some fittings in stock when I'm done. Thanks again ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-03 75825
Beagle: You may not be aware that there could be a valve issue. If the setup you're working on is fairly standard so that the return oil from the valve goes on to the 3ph or other valve then the valve should be power-beyond rated. If it isn't then you have to be sure that the 3ph is not raised with an appreciable load at the same time the valve is operated or the valve may be ruined. There's a decent chance the Prince valve is PB rated but it'd be good to be certain. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-02-03 75830
The set up I have planned would be: Power Beyond from the FEL to the inlet on the Aux Valve, Power Beyond from the Aux. Valve back to the Power Beyond on the tractor block. Both valves would exhaust with a tee to the return on the tractor. In other words, I would keep the regen. circuit in place with the aux valve in series with the FEL valve. Does this sound right to you? I believe by the time I get all the fittings to make this work, I'll have more left over that I started with. By the way, I was planning on a two spool set up for the aux., one would be a motoring spool to run a Hydraulic winch, the other would be a four-way for the top link. Anyone done this? ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-03 75897
Beagle: If the valves you're using have two ports on the outlet section then they almost certainly have power-beyond capability. Some single return port valves are PB rated and some aren't. If you haven't ordered or seen them yet, it good to get valves that have flow ratings only slightly larger than the tractor's pump rating. A 20-gpm valve probably is a much larger hunk of iron then you'd want to put on a compact.
Your hook-up sounds right. Valve assemblies are connected in series--high pressure port on the tractor block to the inlet of the first; PB outlet to inlet of the next and PB outlet of the last back to the tractor's return port. I call the other port on the valve outlet section the tank (the ports often are stamped T and PB). Tank lines handle cylinder exhaust oil and go directly to the reservoir. Far as I know they can be combined with t-fittings.
I'm not really up on my motor stuff. I think of a valve that runs a reversing motor as an ordinary directional-control spooling-valve specialized only in having detents at both ends of the travel. They could be more specialized, but if that's the case then the idea of combining both control valves in one assembly is feasible. It's just a matter of finding a manufacturer that sells control valves sections with the needed features and ordering an assembly with the right valve sections. I do think you have to make sure that the motor has reversing capabilities though. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-02-03 75901
Tom, the Prince sectional valves I'm looking at are the SV series rated at 12 GPM. They have two options for the outlet section, I'll get the Power Beyond outlet. Size has been a concern, I sure don't want 20-gpm vlaves. Thanks for all the input, it's been a lot of help. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-04 75920
Happy if all my bumph helped. It's a way of returning a bit for all the stuff I've learned mostly from here.
You might look at other manufacturers if Prince doesn't have a valve section that's right for the motor. I'm thinking that if it's just detents then the valve could be used for most any direction control application. Another manufacturer might have different flow rating valves as well.
I don't know if the Prince valve is one of the types that can be used on either open or closed centre systems. If so, they tend to be supplied set up for closed centre use. A plug has to be removed to use them on open centered systems. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-02-04 75976
Ya, detent is important, but also need to decide if I want free wheeling nuetral or lock nuetral on the spool valve. I am looking at 12 gpm valves, which is large enough to handle any flow I could put out of the tractor. Would you suggest which way would be best for the winch motor. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-05 76011
Comments I make about motors should be qualified since I don't know much about them. I have impressions and theories that may be just plain off the mark. don't know much about winches either.
I don't know if you've settled on the motor yet and were thinking of a gear type. The rpm/torque/flow/external gearing issues we discussed on the sawmill thread may be relevant. I'm not sure of the application for reversing. I never thought of winches as reversing but then I don't know--might be handy though. Variable speed also might be handy. I'd keep in mind that some gear motors don't reverse at all and some not very well and are given to over-heating. Actually, a 12-gmp valve might be desirable if the orifices are larger since that would reduce the heat load a bit and heat could be a problem.
For the valve, I have to guess that neutral locked would be both work ports closed and neutral free-wheel might be both ports connected together. A control valve with a float feature would give both conditions but the operation might not be too rational since neutral free-wheel would be a detend passed one operate position--probably reverse. If the neutral lock position is subject to load shocks then a valve with circuit reliefs might be good but then it wouldn't exactly be locked.
I don't have a good sense of which would be better. However, it doesn't seem like a good idea if a winch could inadvertently free-wheel when raising a load. I imagine a winch has a brake on the spool though. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2004-02-05 76029
Beagle, I don't think you will have any luck 'locking' a hydraulic motor.
Certainly if you apply a load to it the motor shaft will spin, slowly maybe, but spin it will. The hydraulic fluid will cavitate in the pump allowing motion in the absence of a driving force. If you were to run a steep enough gear reduction then the gears combined with the motor may prevent very much motion.
In the case of skidding winches, for example, you use the hydro. power to pull the log in to the machine then chain it in place to keep it from playing out cable as you drive away.
Best of luck. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-06 76100
Yes Murf, I was sort of wondering how positive a lock you'd get by closing both work ports. Piston motors probably have higher volumetric efficiency and likely would be more positive. ....
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| MadRefereee
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 23 New Hampshire
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2004-02-06 76121
beagle,
your method of connecting the plumbing for aux valve is correct. I did the same on my B2710 only I used the rear block which you don't have. I used a 3-spool Prince SV valve. Since flow is onlt 6.4gpm these valves work well.
....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-02-06 76184
Now that I have that much figured out, any suggestions on mounting the valves. I want to be able to access the valves easily to run a hydraulic top link, so I don't want to mount the valves at the ROPS. I was considering a mount on the loader tower under the joystick. Anyone got a better idea? ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-06 76190
My loader uses a set of control handles rather than a joy stick. The valve assembly mounts on a pedestal that sits about shoulder height just to the right of the steering wheel. The pedestal mounts on a pipe that attaches to the loader mount.
I could post a pic tomorrow if you're interested. I avoided clearing snow today until after a risk of freezing rain is over. I'll have the tractor out blowing away tomorrow for sure. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-02-06 76192
That would be great, I had pictured mounting the valve vetically to the tower. Your set-up might be what I need. Thanks ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2004-02-07 76255
Beagle: Two views of the mount are on the link below.
I guess there could be a closer view of how it attaches to the loader frame but that's probably a basic fabrication problem. There are some tapped holes the sleeve for the vehicle pipe screws into that may be standard from the factory.
The valve handles can be positioned by raising or rotating the vertical pipe. I can't recall if the length of horizontal pipe can be changed but that would be easy enough to do. I guess it's obvious that the set up prevents getting off the tractor from that side. It's fairly convenient to operate and a third spool for a rear outlet is on the same assembly. Operation of the rear outlet isn't too bad even if some twisting around is needed. ....
Link: Loader Valve Mount
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| MadRefereee
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 23 New Hampshire
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2004-02-07 76277
I question your need to have the valves on or near the loader joystick. When using the top link to adjust an implement you are looking backwards probably turning around to the right. If the valve levers are by the loader, how will you adjust the top link while driving with the left hand and looking backwards? Crossing the right hand over while look back from the right is awkward if not impossible.
I mounted my valves on the fender right next to the ROPS. It works perfect. I can use them turned backwards or looking forward. You might want to rethink your position. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2004-02-07 76295
Thanks Tom and Mad for your comments and pictures. Your pictures have given me some good ideas. The looking backwards question is relevent, except I have a 3-point position indicator that will be mounted by the valves. Since the 7800 was robbed of postion control, I have a device that will indicate the exact postion of the 3-point without looking back. The angling position indication of the implement with the hydraulic link will take some thought, but I beieve I can solve it and include in the mount. I have too much manuvering to do, so getting the implement back to an exact position is important. ....
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