Go BottomTractors in USA are too expensive
 | Nuclear_Weapon7
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2000-03-01 13285
Tractors in USA are too expensive. For example I found one Massey Ferguson 3945 which is a 73 HP, 4WD used tractor 580 hours old listed at $44,500, you can view its photo at http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=2010325&dealerid=150 This is a some what smaller tractor than Massey Ferguson MF 375 4WD 78 HP which sells brand new in Pakistan somewhat more than Rs. 800,000. At the rate of one US dollar eqauling 54 Pakistani Rupees, it comes to $14,814. Lets say an american customer does not get this machine at US $15,000 or say he gets it US $20,000. Does that mean that US manufactures are fleecing thier customers ? I dont buy the argument that Cost of doing business in the US is higher (wages, infrastructure, etc). Because electricity is more expensive in Pakistan than in USA. Workers wages are a lot less but they are also a lot less productive. I shall be posting a few more examples soon. Nuclear_Weapon7.Hyderabad,Sindh,PAKISTAN.
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2000-03-01 13287
Heres one more. Its an exact match for model no. A Massey MF 375 quoted at $35,995.
http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=2020693&dealerid=164
This one is also a 4WD but with 72 inch bucket and only 736 hours. I think can find some MAssey dealer who can sell a new MF 375 4WD with 72 inch bucket at Us $20,000 fob Karachi.
Nuclear_Weapon7.
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2000-03-01 13289
Nuc, there are far more, higher costs in North America than you have considered. For example, I suspect that very few of your farms are bought for industrial land at the rate of $30,000.00 / acre as happens here regularly. Also, don't forget that the wages for the manufacturer are just a very small portion of the totla cost to the consumer, it goes to the dealer on a $250,000 truck, with $1.62 / gal. diesel in the tank, and a $30,000 / yr. driver behind the wheel. Then a $40,000 / yr mechanic assembles & inspects it, then a 440,000 / yr salesman sells it. Even then theres probably a whole host of things I've missed, like the $10,000 / yr realty tax bill for the dealership... Don't be to quick to look at something and judge. ....
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2000-03-01 13295
Well Murf I had not thought of this many hidden costs for US tractors, everything there is much more expensive then here excpet for diesel. Here are 4 more web links for MAssey Ferguson MF 240 ( all with defective brakes I think ). I think MF 240 can be bought from PAKISTAN fob Karachi at US $10,000 new.
http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=2701005&dealerid=102
http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=106129&dealerid=14
http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=1010805&dealerid=104
http://www.agdealer.com/list/view_image.cfm?image=207604&dealerid=102
Nuclear_Weapon7.
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-03-01 13296
Nuk,
It appears as if you are trying to make apples from oranges.
What's an average wage in Pakistan? Cost of an average single family house?
Naturally this varies by geographical location, but the average cost of a single family home in my area is about $125,000-$175,000 on 1/4 to 1/2 acre lot. I think the "Average" American middle class salary is somewhere between $29k and $31K a year. And it has become more and more common to know people making 6 digit incomes. I think Murf is from the Toronto Canada region, which is slightly more expensive than the US. I would ask that you post Pakistan $ figures to the examples I've given. Otherwise, your comparisons in tractor pricing hold little value. Remember...pricing is almost always driven by Supply & Demand!! ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-03-01 13297
Michael, never mind Pakistan, I the sounds of your prices even. While it seems your 'average' wages are close to ours (albeit in Cdn $) the cost of houses are out a bit, that same house here (yes, Toronto area) would cost you $350,000Cdn (or $235,000US) and the AVERAGE price of diesel right now is $0.70/litre which is $2.80Cdn/gal. ($1.85US/gal.) so i guess there is good and bad to everything. ....
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| Kim Hartshorn
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2000-03-01 13301
And dont leave out the tremendous cost of liability insurance. I have read that something like 75% of the cost of a ladder goes to cover liability.
I wonder if anyone realizes how slippery those stickers that say "Do not stand above this step" are when they get wet? :-)
I would imagine that the threat of liability in tractor manufacturing has to be quite high.
Kim Hartshorn ....
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2000-03-01 13304
I think that in Seattle tractor manuf. must also have been active against WTO. The cost of everything is far greater in Japan than in USA but I think Japanese tractors are cheaper than US ones.
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-03-01 13311
Nuk,
I'm not sure where you get your info, but having been in Japan, I only remember a few things which were more expensive than a typical "major" US city.
However, S.Korea & China are definitely cheaper than Japan.
ANYWAY!!..Murf, your housing estimates are definitely in line for a US metro area. For example, average house in San Francisco is $285k, or at least it was 1 year ago. Nuk, you still haven't answered my Pakistan market question. ....
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| Don in Oregon
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2000-03-01 13312
Hey Murph. What's the name of the dealer that's paying salesmen $440,000 a year? I need a job at this place!!
Nuc, there's one factor that you may not understand. Tractor manufacturers build different variations of similar tractors exclusively for certain markets around the world. The more advanced the countrys farming practices, the more advanced the tractor and also the higher priced it will be. For example, JD still builds tractors for sale in Argentina and Mexico whose designs became obsolete in the US up to twenty years ago. I would suspect you might find similar differences in tractors built for your market as well. I do know that MF is still building tractors for less developed ag markets that are virtually unchanged from the ones they sold in the US in the 1960's. Just my $.02. Don. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-03-01 13331
Easy Don, taxes are higher too, on a salary like that you'd probably be paying about $438,000 income tax a year, LOL ..... ....
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2000-03-02 13337
Prices in Defence housing society Karachi are about Rs.10 million for houses constructed on 1/4 acre plots. In Hyderabad Houses cost about half that amount. I am not sure but I think that the minimum industrail wage is Rs. 6,000 per month.
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2000-03-02 13338
Tracors are even cheaper in east european countries than in PAKSITAN. I have heard that the importer of Belarus tractors in Pakistan i.e. Fecto group gets these tractors at Rs. 250,000 and when they reach farmers thier cost is Rs. 470,000. I think that day light robbery. Similar are the profits of US tractor manufactures.
Don, about tractor manufactures building different variations of similar tractors, I dont think that Massey Ferguson MF 240 built in Pakistan and USA are much different. If anybody knows more I would like to know about it.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-03-02 13363
Nuc, don't try to compare East. Europe with anywhere else. The infrastructure in these countries was developed by communist governments. Profit was not even considered when these factories were built, etc., the only goal was to end up with tractors and employment. Now that there is a 'free market' economy the operators of these plants have almost no overhead, plenty of cheap labour, and no development costs since they are selling someone else's 1950-60? technology. How could you NOT make money under these conditions? ....
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| RCH
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2000-03-03 13385
To make meaningful comparisions between countries take money out of the equation ; i.e.,how many hours do you have to work to buy the same thing. I'd be interested in that figure re an equivalent Massey Ferguson,as well as a house,lb of butter,pair of shoes etc in Pakistan compared to USA. ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-03-03 13395
OK, Let me get this straight Nuk... And please excuse my lack of familiarity with the Pakistan locations mentioned, a house costs 10 million Rs. or about $185k US. And the other area mentioned averages about $92k US. How are these areas rated in terms of wealth?? Because your stated minimum wage of about $110 dollars US per month would hardly be enough for ever a homeless street bum to survive here in the states, yet alone pay for a house even half of the lesser you mentioned. I read somewhere that most street bums manage to pull $50 a day or more..from begging. Again, You cannot equally compare markets, Supply & Demand ultimately alters the prices we pay. A US auto in Australia costs almost twice as much as in the US...why.. Supply & Demand. further complicated by production/shipping costs associated with each product. Hey Murf, Can I come work for you as a Salesman??? :0) ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-03-03 13398
Michael, see my earlier post to Don about the taxes, LOL, besides I see at least one typo. in your message too..... and even with our high tax rate (LOL again) we don't have 6 year olds packing guns to school up here....zing! ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-03-03 13399
Michael, see my earlier post to Don about the taxes, LOL, besides I see at least one typo. in your message too..... and even with our high tax rate (LOL again) we don't have 6 year olds packing guns to school up here....cover me, I'm going for the blackboard.... ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-03-03 13405
Murf,
Of course you don't have this problem. In America, we don't choose between raising a family OR developing a career... We simply do both and depend on the electronic baby sitter.. otherwise known as a TV to do everything.. Then, when something bad happens...We blame it on guns, drugs, rock music or...society. Its never the parents fault.. Besides, how could it be, they were busy working late everynight to build their career.. What this post has to do with tractors I'll never know. ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-03-03 13417
Nuk,
I don't know what to tell ya.. I guess if I were you...I'd be glad I didn't live in the States, if your theory proves true. As for the rest of us..Minus Murf of course... Guess we just gotta live with it, After all..America is a free country..we could move to....oh.....Pakistan maybe?? :0) ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2000-03-03 13419
Michael, you just may be onto something here with out even knowing it my friend. If everyone had a compact (kids included), they would all be out playing in the dirt and getting greasy like the rest of us instead of fighting and shooting... What d'ya think? ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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2000-03-06 13511
Murf,
I'm sure you wouldn't hear complaints from the tractor manuf's about that Idea. Course it might not be the best for a guy like you. Instead of kids selling lemonade or delivering newspapers, they'd be out mowing everyone's yards for a couple a bucks. LOL.. :) ....
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