Go BottomRear blade and plow sizes
 | Terry Senay
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2001-06-12 29185
I've been looking over the messages threads, cruised the web for information, and visited a few implement dealers. I'm still mystified. I want to buy a plow and rear blade to use behind my JD 4100. 12" or 14" moldboard. 5ft or 6ft rear blade. It's a little confusing. My garden area is not all that big; currently 5 beds, 3 @ 6'w X 50' L, 1 @ 65'w X 65'L, and 1 @ 30'w X 60'L. More in the works. (wife does market gardening and we're expanding a little every couple of years). The 14" moldboard looks very massive and maybe overkill. Or is it okay due to its weight. And what is the purpose of a coulter? As far as the rear blade, I'll be using primarily to move snow in winter and some minor grading. Pros and cons about rear blade features eg - light vs medium duty blade and tilting. Any suggestions/discussion is welcome. Also, is there any other site or printed material to help out us gentlemen farmers (newbies) on what different implements do and what the meanings of the equipment and hardware. Osmosis is a very slow process!!!!!!
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2001-06-12 29186
While it is true that even a single bottom plow looks over-whelming, they are designed to slice through, rather than actually 'plow' through the ground. If your wife is market gardening you might be better off, given the relatively small area you are 'farming' to get a roto-tiller for your tractor. A plow is generally used because of the speed in which a large area can be worked. A tiller will be far more useful for things like blending in soil enrichments (organics, manure, fertilizer, etc.) and for prepping in a single pass, or weeding between rows. With small areas like you are working, the quality of the preparation is more important than with a couple hundred acres where speed is critical. Best of luck. ....
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| Terry Senay
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2001-06-12 29192
Thank you for the reply. I do have a 58" tiller. However, I would like to have my soil turned over to really mix in the organics deeper. A couple of the beds have clay soil around 5"-7" below the tilled surface. This causes the "good" soil to be sometimes too wet during early spring and too dry in late summer. So I want to turn the soil as deep as possible. The other beds drain well, but I wish to turn that soil also. Additionally, I want to grow some cover crops which need turned under so that they may decompose. I know that the tiller chops the cover crops. But I think that turning it first and letting it decompose for a few weeks in early spring prior to rototilling will eventually improve the soil and let me till to a greater depth. Anywho, to get back to the original subject.... What size moldboard??? ....
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| kay
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2001-06-12 29201
My 2 cents, if it were me, would be to try the 14" and hope that it would give you the depth you want. If it will not, then the 12" would be the way to go, but it would just take more passes to get the job done. The plow is a great tool to go with your tiller for many of the reasons you identified. Especially good if their is any slope to the plots. The plow will let you move the soil back up hill if you plow all one way. You asked about the coulter - it just cuts through the top layer to help roll that layer over with the moldboard. Sometimes trailing a No.9 wire in the furrow ahead of the plow helps tuck the surface debris under the rolled over layer. ....
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| Terry Senay
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2001-06-12 29209
Thank you for your reply Kay!! It's beginning to make some sense to me. Now, I really can't picture the No. 9 wire in front of the plow. You say that it would follow the furrow in front of the plow. Doesn't the plow make a furrow??
Do you or anyone else have any ideas on the rear blade question I posed? Also, any additional sites with general farming information. ....
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| Tucker Herbold
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2001-06-12 29218
I spent the last winter plowing quite a bit of snow with a 4100 and a 5' light duty blade here in Connecticut. As long as the snow was less than 5" deep, I didn't have much trouble rolling it over to the side. Any deeper, and the tractor moved to the side -- not enough weight on the tractor. I ended up adding about 400 pounds to the backend (homemade wheel weights) and now the blade pulls like crazy and the tractor tracks straight. Based on the amount of use I've gotten out of the blade, I'm about ready to upgrade and buy a heavier duty blade mostly for the angling feature. I'm tired of having to adjust the linkage to tilt the blade. 5' is really about the limits for traction on the 4100. ....
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| Don M
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 120 myLocation
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2001-06-12 29219
I have a 755 hydro, which is functionally similar to the 4100 hyrdro in terms of pulling implements. Same HP and close in size. I have a 5 foot blade and it handles it easily. That is considered the right size, but some guys use a 6 foot blade successfully, especially on lighter materials.
-Don M ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-06-13 29228
Terry, maybe I'm confused but by my undestanding you want to use the plow so that you can bring the clay to the surface? This is certainly not the conventional way of dealing with clay. You are 100% correct in that a clay belt below surface will prevent (or at least slow) drainage of the surface layer, however I don't think you want the clay on surface either. I would try a few passes with a cultivator the slit the clay and introduce some soil into the clay and lighten it up. But then I'm only a ninth generation farmer, I still have a lot to learn, LOL. Best of luck. ....
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| Terry Senay
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2001-06-13 29235
Murf.... No, I do not want to turn the clay over entirely. Yes, I want to scarify it and also begin to break it up to get deeper tillage. The original soil had a lot of clay near the surface and I have worked enough organics to get the depth down another 4"-5". This has been over the past 5 or 6 years using a Troy Built tiller. Now that I have a tractor, I want to go as deep as I can. This will take some time. I've even considered trucking in some top soil to built up the surface. But I would rather try to till in some organics and let good ol' mother nature take over. Thank you for responding. :>) I threw out the question to get answers from people with experience. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-06-14 29262
Terry if that is your goal then yes, you are on the right track, pentrating the clay belt with lighter material is the way to go. However, IMHO, the plow is the last method I would use. It will take FAR more horsepower, and take a LOT more passes to accomplish the task than a cultivator would. Depending on the tires you have on your 4100, you could probably pull a 5' cultivator (and with 2 or 3 passes) get it to a depth of 18" without too much problem at all. The area around here is one of the most prolific Market Gardening areas in North America (the Holland Marsh, Ontario, Canada) and this is how they all do it. A cultivator shank only takes about 10% of the power to pull that a mouldboard does, therefore you can pull 10 tines instead of one plow, so you do 10 times more work in one pass. Best of luck. ....
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| Terry Senay
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2001-06-14 29274
Hey, that's some great information. I thought that a cultivator was used after plowing. Learn something new each time I look at this site. My 4100 has r4 industrials. The only problem I've notices so far is when the soil/ground is very wet! Well, as they say, duh..... Purposely stayed away from turf tires due to anticipated plowing, tilling, snow removal, etc. Do you recommend a manufacturer like Howse, King Kutter, etc? Or anyone specific.
Thank you again!!! ....
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| kay
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2001-06-14 29277
Murf
I am not sure where I have been, but to me a cultivator is not the terminology I would use for a subsoiler (which seems to me what you are describing). A cultivator is for weeding rows of corn, beans, or other row crops. Probably just terminology differences between areas of the country. Subsoilers have narrow but tough shanks that have a narrow foot on the end and can go 10-20 inches into the ground (great for use before plowing). Cultivators have shanks with sweeps on the end that go just below the surface and cut the weed roots, etc.
Maybe this is confusing the issue, but I hope not. ....
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| Terry Senay
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2001-06-14 29278
Wow!! I didn't think the original question would generate a such long thread. However, this is good. Again, gaining more knowledge. So, Kay, you're suggesting using a subsoiler prior to plowing. Then after plowing and once the cover crop decomposes, till it all together with the rototiller. Hmmm... Okay. I have a 20 horse HST tractor. What size subsoiler would I use or, I suppose, how many "blades" could the tractor handle? Oh, my CFO (Chief Financial Officer) is going to love the next proposal I put together!!!! :>} ....
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| kay
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2001-06-14 29291
With that HP, I would think one subsoiler tooth would use up the 20, if it was on a 3pt that would also provide you with traction (down pressure on the rear wheels when deep in the soil). I don't know how common single-tooth subsoilers are, but I have a home-made one and I think there is also one in Northern Tool. They are great for rolling out boulders too. Work on some of your locals to get additional information too. Have fun. ....
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| Rob Wheeler
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2001-06-14 29292
KingKutter makes a sub-soiler like you've described. They show it on their website. ....
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| kay
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2001-06-14 29293
Yes, the KingKutter site has one, and also I see that monroetufline site has a single and a double. They say 30 horses for the single, and 50 for the double, depending upon the soil conditions. I suspect the clay can be in the tougher category. ....
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| Jim Youtz
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2001-06-15 29297
Kay, I pull a single subsoiler with my JD4100 gear tractor. It works great and pulls easy with a little front end weight and 4wd engaged. My soil is sandy clay loam. ....
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| Terry Senay
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2001-06-15 29307
All - thank you for the information. I understand what I need to do now. Hmmmm... trade the 4100 for a 4200/4300, get more implements, etc. Now, for the hard part, convincing the CFO. ;>). ....
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| kay
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2001-06-15 29309
Jim-I would agree that your gear tractor should do that. I suspect the HST 4100 would struggle a bit with ground engaging equipment. My old '58 two-cylinder 420 with 27 HP handled a 16-inch one bottom plow easily (rated at two bottom), as well as the subsoiler tooth (and many other rip-snorting tasks I put it to), whereas my new 4300 with HST is more fun to operate, with loader, front snow plow, and rotary cutter (handles the tooth well, but have not tried the 16" one bottom on it yet).
Terry - maybe rent a bigger tractor with subsoiler and plow, then use what you have to do the tilling. All this depends on how close the rental equipment is too. But if you can get bigger toy..(I mean tools!) using whatever logic, go for it. ....
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| Terry Senay
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2001-06-15 29314
Kay - my 4100 is less than 3 months old!!! I had to provide a cost justification for the CFO to purchase it ;>}. I mentioned that we may have to trade it in on a bigger one in a couple of years. Maybe I spoke to soon!!! Well, the response I got was... You got enough toys. And, something to the effect that I will probably be buried with the 4100. Or sooner, if I mention getting something a bigger!!! I think that a single subsoiler and smaller single moldboard may just work. I only have to plow a small garden area. What took me 3 or 4 hours with a Troy Built tiller now takes me 20-30 minutes with the 4100 and 58" Landpride tiller. My soil in most beds is very tillable. In my main bed, the topsoil is between 18-24" before hitting clay. I used a middle buster (potatoe plow) to break up the soil and was able to get down 8-9" with now real problem. The tractor grunted a little but worked right through the wet clay. Just recently, I used the same middle buster to trench around my property to install a hidden fence for my dog. Dropped the blade to a depth of about 4" and pulled through roots up to 2". Anything above stopped me!! ....
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| kay
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2001-06-15 29325
Terry - I hear you. So, because you have the middle buster, can you just remove the tip and attach a narrow foot, and turn it into a subsoiler? Seems to me that would give you what you want, or darn close to it. Check with an implement dealer, and see if their variety of tips for subsoilers, etc. would work. ....
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| mike
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2001-06-19 29427
Murf - what implement do you mean when you say "a cultivator"?
I have the same issue as terry, a garden with the top 5-6 inches tilled with a rototiller followed by a clay bed preventing drainage. My garden is a little smaller than his and the tractor I am buying is a few hp smaller than his (18 hp). I was thinking of using the box and loader to move half the topsoil in the garden to one end then use the rippers on the gannon to break up the 'next layer' but that sounds like a LOT of work.
mike
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-06-20 29457
I think the confusion is due to (as someone mentioned) different names being used on the same thing in different areas. The ground in this area varies wildly due to the varying effects of the glaciers during the ice age. However, in the area we farm the topsoil is underlaid with a clay belt that ranges from 4" - 6" thick. The implement we use for this purpose is locally called a 'cultivator', it is NOT the same thing I discovered as what a lot of other areas call a Yeoman's plow or cultivator, which has broad arrow-shaped heads which run flat just under the surface between crop rows to control unwanted growth. What we use is more like a series of 'middle busters', they are VERY narrow and deep, with a very hard (usually carbide) lead edge and replaceable tip. Because of them being narrow, with little ground resistance, they slit the ground like a knife, causing a very small amount of soil (ours is very sandy) to penetrate the clay which forms a passage way for moisture to escape into the subsoil through the clay belt. Another benefit of their slim profile is that you can reach a long way down (usually 18") with several cutters while not requiring massive amounts of power to pull them. Best of luck. ....
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