Go BottomTC33D FEL wimpy Or just need fixin
 | treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin 
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2001-12-15 33837
I just drove a new TC33D with a belly mower and NH FEL. The hydrolics were making alot of noise on the RH side of the tractor. Thinking there was air in the lines, I raised the loader to the full extremes and it didn't make any difference. I then tipped the bucket forward some and tried to lift the front tractor tires off the ground by lowering the loader under power. It couldn't lift them! I knew it was trying because when I went to "float" , it let the pressure off. So I cranked up some RPM....It still couldn't lift the front tires. All the other loader tractors I've drove could do this. The sales guy said he would have someone look at it.
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 | tbarber
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 8 ct
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2001-12-15 33840
I had Kubota L345DT, NH 1220 they both wouldn't pick up the front tires, now I have a JD 855 and it dosn't either.They all would pick up the tires if I used the bucket to curl up.
Tom ....
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| treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2001-12-15 33844
I know that the down pressure is going to be less because the oil pressure is pushing against the rod end of the cylinder. I'm missing the "square inch area" that is being taken up by the cylinder rod. A 3" cylinder with a 1.5" rod is going to have 25% less down pressure than up. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2001-12-16 33849
Hard to say what's normal, but in general I’d think that a loader that wouldn’t lift the front (with the lift rather than curl cylinders) isn’t working quite right. Some loaders won't lift the front when the bucket is flat because they don't go low enough, but most will lift the front when the bucket is tilted down. Good thing too, because I've gotten stuck in small excavations with the wheels cramped. Dropping the bucket load and lifting the wheels makes it easy to straighten out the wheels. I have to drop the load, because my loader won’t lift the front when the bucket is flat. Same idea makes it easy to get tractors that have some front axle wind-up in and out of 4wd.
Because lifting the wheels is useful, you'd think loaders would be engineered so they could despite the reduced force on the rod side of the cylinder that treeman noted. The design compromise would be to use larger cylinders, but that would slow down a loader. Similarly, it’s interesting to note that the strong sides of the curl cylinders are on the dump side where the least power is needed most times. Some construction equipment does it the other way.
Hydraulics making 'a lot of noise' can be the relief valve opening, which could be due to a heavy load, something wrong in the system or a cylinder reaching the end of its travel. Ordinarily not much air get into hydraulic cylinders, and that which does bubbles out while oil is in the sump. However, sometimes cylinders are 'cycled' to purge them of air by running them each way to their max travel and holding the valve open for a few seconds. The relief valve should open.
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| treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2001-12-17 33878
I went back to the dealership and they said that it is normal that loader down-pressure will not lift the front wheels. When curling the bucket, it will lift the front wheels very easily. Now, about the hydrolic noise that's coming from the right-hand side of the tractor, I can feel the vibration of the noise through the hydrolic lines going to the loader control. The tractor has two remotes out back and if you slightly move either of the levers for the remotes it will quiet the noise. The mechanic is going to take a look at the tractor. ....
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| tbarber
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 8 ct
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2001-12-17 33879
It sounds like there is a slight air leak. I had one of the hose
fittings come loose on my NH, and it would make a squealing noise. It was sucking air in.
Tom ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-12-18 33891
I don't mind being wrong, but it's news to me. Actually it's the first time I've heard anybody say their loader wouldn't lift the front wheels, especially if the bucket is pointed down. I guess some might not seem to lift at low rpm.
Well, I guess you have to go with what a dealer says is normal. Still, compacts tend to be fairly light in the front and a bucket has fair leverage. Makes me sort of wonder if the lifting capacity might be surprisingly low.
In an open centered system, full hydraulic flow goes through the loader valve assembly (SCV) all the time. When a control valve is operated, the pump develops pressure and a cylinder moves. Flow decreases under pressure, but still full flow goes through the SCV unless the pressure is high enough for the relief valve to open.
When the hydraulic system is not operated, the pressure is low and little if any noise can be heard. When a valve is operated, pressure increases and some 'flow noise' is normal. Normal flow noise is different than the relief valve sound that is more like a scream.
There's a chance that the rear remote valves are not coming back fully to the open center position. If so, there is what amounts to an obstruction in the line that could create an abnormal noise and also could rob the loader of some power. Open centered systems can omit air on the suction side of the pump, but there’s almost always some pressure everywhere on the high-pressure side of the pump. I guess I'd see what the mechanic has to say.
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| Jeff B
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-12-18 33895
I'll vote wimpy. My TC33D will just barely get the wheels off the ground if I'm at full throttle. ....
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| treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2001-12-18 33896
I went back to the dealer and took a closer look at the loader cylinder. It looked like about a two inch bore and a 1.25 to 1.375 inch rod. That means the loader will only have two thirds of the up force for down force. This one has a belly mower on it also. An extra 500lbs? If I put the bucket down flat, and then curl it down, it will pick up the front tires with ease. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-12-19 33897
Seems to be a consensus for wimpy. I guess now I'll have to wonder how unwimpy my loader might be without a 600 - 700 pound implement on the 3ph. There's almost always something on the 3ph that would lighten the front. A mid-mower would certainly add weight to the front. Hope this thread helps sort out what's normal and what should be expected. I believe that everybody always both learns as well as contributes here.
I depend on down pressure to lift the front when I'm compacting gravel. Lifting the wheels with the bucket fairly flat and back-dragging while using brake steering does a pretty good job. Compacting gravel is important to me, and I suppose I could use the curl if the lift down-pressure wasn't enough. However, what I learned thinking this through is that I probably should drop any 3ph implement before doing final compacting.
I'm still curious about the noise. I had some hydraulic problems before I changed the oil and filter. Occasionally the loader would hesitate or the 3ph wouldn't lift. I found that jiggling the control valves cleared things up. I figure that the old contaminated oil sometimes prevented the valves from returning completely to center-- I can't recall noticing any abnormal noises through. Anyway, part of the description of the original problem reminded me of my former hydraulic problems.
It is possible for air to get into the pressure side lines while dumping a heavy load. The load wants to move the cylinder faster then the pump can refill the pressure side. Enough vacuum can be generated to cavitate the oil. I suppose loose fittings could admit air and make a sound, but that would occur only during a short period when dumping heavy loads.
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962 
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2001-12-19 33900
Treeman, have you looked at the specifications for that loader? I don't know what they are, but most loader specs include a "digging depth" (and it varies with different models), but I think that should tell you now far below the front wheel level the bucket should go with it's flat. That, in turn, should tell you how much it will lift the front end. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2001-12-19 33905
Just curious, can you turn the wheels lock to lock at an idle with the loader in the air with one hand? ....
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| treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2001-12-19 33911
Art, yes it will steer very easy. The 2 remotes were put on but never used. I was wondering if a person would hook up the lines to a piece of equipment and run oil through them maybe that would get any air out and stop the noise. The dealer is going to remove the remotes anyway because I don't think I'll need them.
I know I didn't run out of travel on the loader cylinders because I curled the bucket down quite a bit first. ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2001-12-19 33912
I know it sounds like the remotes, but all that you did was relieve the pressure which seems to be staying on for one reason or another. It would not be those valves that are causing the noise unless they were open. They could be installed wrong and that would cause it to do it. I would not give up the extra remotes as if you ever needed them they could be costly to replace if you ever needed them. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-12-20 33919
Are control valves for the rear remotes are part of the loader spooling control valve assembly (SCV) or are they a separate SCV? If the loader and rear valves are in the same SCV, are the rear valves before or after the loader valves? If the rear valves are on a separate SCV, is it before or after the loader SCV? Are any of the SCV's power-beyond types? Power beyond valves have one line to the input section and two lines from the outlet section, while a standard valve has only one outlet hose.
Bunch of questions, but the answers probably are needed to help sort out the problem.
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| treeman
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 251 Wisconsin
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2001-12-21 33955
The remotes were bolted to the rear diff. on the right side. The loader valve is on the right rear fender connected to the pump which is on the right side of the engine with a whole bunch of hard lines. The dealer removed the remotes and I drove it today. It's still noisey when you lift the 3ph (belly mower) and when you operate the loader. It was about 20 degrees out this morning and after about 20 min. of operation it was not as noisey. It seems like most of the noise is coming from all the hydro lines for the loader. ....
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| Jeff B
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-12-21 33957
If its 20 deg outside, the hydraulics are definitely going to be noisy. The description of noise when operating the loader or 3ph, and of the noise abating as the unit warms up sounds normal to me. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-12-22 33962
Could be normal noise, and I'm not going to try and second guess a dealer mechanic. I guess I'd describe the normal noise when hydraulics are operated as somewhere between a squirting and a hissing sound. There is very little noise from my hydraulics when nothing is being operated even in cold weather. I do use multi-season hydraulic oil though.
I am curious about the comment that the noise goes away when the rear control valves are moved a little. I wonder if that still happens and if so whether the noise stays away after the valves are jiggled. I'm also curious if the noise is there all the time or only when the loader or 3ph is operated.
It sounds like the rear remotes are separate SCV’s. The normal hookup would be from the PB outlet of the loader SCV to the rear SCV inlet, then from the rear SCV PB back to a hydraulic manifold and on to the 3ph. I have to assume that both SCV's are PB types.
About the only way a downstream SCV could affect an earlier SCV is if the centers are slightly obstructed. That would reduce normal open centre flow and raise the line pressure, and it could make some noise. Jiggling the valves could centre them and open the flow. The noise might go away, although this is a purely speculative idea. There also is the possibility that the orifices in the rear SCV are too small for the pump flow.
Anyway, there are several possibilities if you're never satisfied that operation is normal. A pressure/flow test could determine if the open centre flow and pressure are within spec.
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