Go BottomTractor Roll Over
 | Denny Townson
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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2001-08-31 31468
First let me say that no injuries occurred - Thank God. Here is the story so that we may all learn from it. This morning my wife wanted to use my Kubota to put in a flower bed. We had some dirt that needed to be moved to it and I had some work to do in the office so she asked if she could use the tractor to move the dirt. I said sure and went out with her to get her started. She loaded the bucket and headed toward the location for the flower bed to make the dump. There was a slight grade - a drop of about 1 foot in 20 feet and then a steep drop of about 40 feet. She slowed about 20 feet from the bank and eased down the slight grade. Then when she went to stop the tractor wheels began to slide on the grass and it was clear that the tractor was going over the embankment. I saw her jump from the tractor and then I saw the tractor go over the edge. It rolled over end to end and ended up at the bottom back on the wheels. Why did this happen? First, I think she was very cautious and I also think had I been driving the same thing would have happened to me. How could it have been prevented? She approached the grade at a 90 degree angle heading directly down the slope. I think it would have been better to approach it at an angle to the slope. Second, although she had only about 1/3 bucket load, the load on the front lifted some of the weight from the back wheels and made it more difficult to get traction to stop. Third, she was not an experienced operator although she has probably driven the tractor as much as I have on level land. I am going to add weight to the tires, and we are going to be extremely cautious in the future near embankments and grades. I know that we all agree that RPOS and wearing the seatbelt is a good thing but in this case had she not been able to jump from the tractor I can not stand to think what might have happened.We had a wrecker pull the tractor up the embankment. I found that the bucket had a big dent in it, a hydraulic line was broken, and both front wheels were bent. I fixed the hydraulic line and this afternoon I used the tractor and moved the dirt to finish putting in the flower bed. That flower bed will always have a special meaning to the both of us for ever. PLEASE EVERYONE BE CAREFULL!!
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2001-09-01 31488
It's good there were no injuries and minimal tractor damage. The trouble with operating on slopes is that soil conditions can change from day to day. Work all day on a slope, it rains and it's not safe the next day. The embankment at the bottom must be very steep to produce an end for end roll. I believe that's fairly uncommon. I assume the tractor was in 4wd. When going hills, there is a weight transfer to the downhill side. If the wheels aren't loaded and there wasn't an implement on the 3ph, the tractor probably was already light in the rear due to the loader weight on front and didn't have much rear-wheel traction. The weight transfer from going down hill further reduced rear wheel traction, and the increased traction on the smaller front tires weren't sufficient. When a tractor starts sliding, there already is no traction. With little traction, brakes don't help and there also is little steering. Unless the soil conditions change, a tractor usually slides to the bottom if you're lucky. Often as not, an axle counter-rotates, the tractor snaps around and side-rolls. I think right-angled approaches to a hill are generally best. In doubtful conditions, some people point loader buckets down and carry them low so the can be dropped as a brake if the tractor starts sliding. I've never has a tractor slide, and I know there are various opinions, but I prefer to back down slopes that are uncomfortable. I figure that keeping the rear wheels on the downhill side generally gives the most traction, due to weight-transfer. The idea of sliding backwards down a hill may seem uncomfortable because steering and view would be awkward, but I figure there probably wouldn't be much steering anyway and also not much time for a view. The reason for always wearing seat belts with a ROPS equipped tractor is that many accidents are side rolls. Most people have a tendency to jump off the low side, and there is a very good chance of getting pinned under the ROPS bar. In this case, it seems good that there was a safety rule violation. Safety rules are supposed to produce the fewest and least severe accidents among all tractor operators. The rules can produce rather than prevent accidents in individual instances. Real glad nobody was hurt. ....
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| Michigander
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-01 31500
Scary story. Experience did come into play as she could have just lowered the loader all the way. Even if the cutting edge of the bucket didn't dig into the dirt, it would have transfered the weight onto the back tires so the brakes would have been effective. ....
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| kay
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-01 31502
I didn't see any mention of ballast on the rear of the tractor. Some mention was made that fluid would now be added to the rear wheels. Dropping the bucket, as mentioned, to get the load off the front end, would have helped. Jumping clear obviously helped! Possibly being belted to the seat, and letting the RPS do its job would have worked too. But that would have been scary as h***!. Glad there was no life lost here. ....
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| Terry Senay
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-02 31506
Certainly glad to hear that your wife was not injured.
I would suggest that you either get your tires filled with liquids or make/buy a ballast box for your 3pt hitch. I chose the later. Also, invest in a tiltmeter.
Yesterday, I took my 4100 (with a tiltmeter) to a friends house so to mow his lawn. His lawn tractor's engine is blown. After a bit, I let him use the tractor. It's an HST with a belly mower, R4 tires, and no ballast. His back yard has some steeper inclines (15 to 20%). It was the afternoon and the grass was dry. On one part which was close to me, he was moving forward at a right angle to the slope very slowly and the front tires began to slide. I mentioned it to him and he began to be a little more cautious.
I guess what I'm saying here is that working on slopes is dangerous. One must use caution and be ready for anything. And by all means, invest in a tiltmeter. $30 or so dollars or a rollover.... what's more expensive. It doesn't prevent a rollover, just makes you more aware of your working environment.
So, ....
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| Denny Townson
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-02 31509
Thanks for all the replies. We are finally getting over it now to the point we can begin to laugh about it a little without being overwhelmed by the thought of what almost happened.
I think the suggestion to add weight to the back is correct. Why do you prefer the ballast box on a 3pt hitch to filling the tires?? I also think a tilt meter is a good idea. Can I find them on the web and what tilt angle is consider unsafe for the B2410? ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962 
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2001-09-02 31510
Denny, you can find the tiltmeters at the link below. Rick's a fine fellow to deal with. I have two of his tiltmeters on my tractor; side to side and front to rear. I don't think any of the tractor manufacturers are going to come out and say what degree of tilt is safe because there are too many factors to consider. If you're already at the maximum safe tilt and one wheel hits a soft spot and sinks a little on the low side, or runs over a small bump on the high side, things can change too quickly. I've heard that all tractors are SUPPOSED to be able to handle 20 degrees, but that's with no implements or accessories that can change the center of gravity. I've never turned a tractor over; think mine could handle 20 degrees just fine, don't want to find out; don't like anything over 15 myself. ....
Link:
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| MarkS
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-02 31513
One word of caution about tiltmeters. Even if you were on a hillside that felt safe at say 20%, that doesn't mean that it will always be safe. As everyone probably knows, ground conditions i.e. have we had rain, speed of the tractor, and unseen obstacles like bumps, can all play a huge part in a rollover. I had a rear wheel jump up one day after hitting a small bump (steered down the hillside to get the tractor to set back down) and I had been on the same hill hundreds of time before. ....
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| Frank R Taylor
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-02 31515
I took Bird's advice and installed a tiltmeter on my B2400 a while back. I found that my pucker factor increases exponentially once I got over 15 degrees. That leaves a small safety factor for when the tires drop into a hole or rut on the downside of the slope when I'm mowing my pasture. I also keep the FEL bucket in a lowered position. I try never to cut the grass when it's wet. It's too easy to slide down the slope totally out of control. I did it once on a big Massey at the farm when the 7' mower broke loose and dragged the tractor sideways down the slope. That thing seemed to hover there on 2 wheels forever before before it finally crashed back down on all four. I don't mind admitting, it scared the everloving hell out of me. Now I tend to err on the side of caution when on slopes of any kind. ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2001-09-02 31516
I don't know if the design features are the same between a 'bota and a deere but if my 4100 is in 2wd I only have brakes on the rear wheels and quite frankly they are a bit scary when I try to stop quickly at top speed (10.9 mph) going down my steep PAVED driveway. The brakes are probably 300% more effective if I leave it in 4wd as they will stop all four wheels. I am also coming to the conclusion that your can't hang too much weight on a compact tractor as long as it is balanced fore and aft. They are markedly safer with calcium filled tires , wheel weights etc. If you try to save money in this area then you will likely spend the same amount in repairs and afterward you will still have to buy the wheel weights and calcium. When I lived in Anchorage I found out it cost the same to buy four studded tires as it did to pay the inevitable collision deductable. It becomes easier to make monitary decisions when you look at it as a "pay me now or pay me later with interest" type thing. ....
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 | cutter
Join Date: Feb 2000 Posts: 1307 The South Shore of Lake Ontario, New York 
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2001-09-02 31527
What size Kubota do you have Denny? I just bought a B2910 and am a bit curious as to how concerned I should be with this paritcular unit. I know that the J/D 4100 I owned was EXTREMELY light in the back with the loader on and even an empty bucket. I had to run an attachment on the 3pt whenever it was used. On the other hand, my N/H tc29 can easily handle loader work on flat ground without any rear ballast. I can share a story about a roll over as well. This happened to a new Case 580CK with loader and backhoe. It had a steel cab as well. My co-worker was operating on a slight incline. He was traversing across it between a pile of dirt over to a dump truck he was loading. Several times he ran over a fairly large flat rock with the uphill rear tire and with his bucket raised, it would bounce the machine off the ground. When I saw this, I stopped him and told him to slow down and travel with his loader close to the ground, it appeared the machine was going to go over. He told me to go do something to myself, he knew what he was doing. Two passes later, that 580 was on its' side. Mr. brain dead was not injured but had the s_ _ _ scared out of him. That incident was ignorance combined with arrogance. Again, fortunately no one was injured except the macho pride of the operator. I'm glad your wife was not hurt, these stories are real eye openers. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-09-03 31529
A comment about ballast boxes vs loaded tires: Apart from the mess of leaks with loaded tires, the problem is that the weight is always there. Heavier tractors used for finish mowing are harder on lawns so some people wouldn't want to load the tires on a mowing tractor. Loaded tires also can affect tractor handling and ride when 'roading.' I've even head it said that loaded tired distort the tread and reduce the traction of some tires (compared to weight on the 3ph). Loaded tires also may produce a slightly lower centre of gravity and don't stress the tractor frame.
An advantage of a ballast box is the weight can be changed easily. There also is leverage on the tractor frame. Often the steering is very hard with a heavy bucket load. Weight on loader tires will hold the back down, but weight on the 3ph also lightens the steering. I guess I've never seen a real advantage of a ballast box over just leaving an implement on the 3ph. I figure that if an implement is there I might need to do some work with it. With a ballast box, you can't do anything with the 3ph except carry weight around or change it to an implement.
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| mike dewald
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-03 31534
I think in the above situation, a tiltmeter would not have been helpful. This was a case of not enough rear end weight to provide enough braking. Even on slight downhill grades, or wet grass, a tractor with a FEL (even empty) and without ballast or loaded tires, the tractor is going to have a problem stopping. I have a short, moderately steep grade on my property and everytime I use it I expect to slide slightly with the rear end (without MFWD engaged). I only go down it with an empty loader. In this case the only thing she could have done was 1.Never attempt the decent. 2.Lower the loader to act as a brake and to increase the weight on the rear end to improve the rear end braking. A 3rd option that is very helpful is to engage the MFWD and with most of the weight on the front end will also stop the sliding. With MFWD engaged, braking the rear tires should result in breaking on the fronts.
Backing down steeper hills is also a recommend practice with the MFWD engaged. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-09-04 31548
Yep, tractors are good at pulling and bad at stopping. 4wd is good, and yes braking the rear wheels also brakes the front wheels. However, things work differently in low traction and in high traction/high load situations. This incident sounds like a low traction situation where the brakes have enough power to lock the wheels so they slide. In higher traction/load situations applying the brakes may not lock the wheels.
My neighbour up the highway has an illustration. His friend brought a utility tractor to help him move a 60' or so mobile. They started down his gently slopped gravel drive. The mobile proceeded to push the tractor, brakes and all, down the drive and across both highway lanes. The tractor went into the ditch on the other side and broke a hitch (trailer, tractor or drawbar, I don't know). It took about an hour to get the mobile off the highway, and they had both lanes blocked most of the time. Around here a person can be charged costs for doing such things. I suppose it's lucky my neighbour's checkbook wasn't damaged although his reputation might have suffered. Anyway, tractor brakes just aren't designed to do much stopping. They might have avoided the situation by jury-rigging the trailer electric brakes into onto the tractor battery but there's really no substitute for a proper tow vehicle.
I haven't exactly thought it through, but in higher traction situations, engaging the diff-lock might help. What little engine braking a diesel produces would then be added to the braking force on both rear wheels (and one front wheel in 4wd). Engaging the diff-lock also may help prevent axle counter-rotation that can cause side rolls. However, if I were considering whether to jump or take a wild ride, I doubt I'd have the presence of mind to consider the diff-lock.
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| kay
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-04 31559
Maybe one just needs the presence of mind to lock the dual brake pedals together AND lock the differential BEFORE getting into trouble with the wheels sliding and possibly counter rotating. Also, the presence in mind to have ballast on the rear when using the front end loader. Experience is the best teacher, but the hard knocks sometimes don't lead to a second chance in this lifetime. ....
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| Bruce Pirger
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-06 31630
So happy to hear of no injuries. I live on 44 wooded acres up on top of a hill...1000' steep driveway through the woods. I have a 4WD Zetor 5245 (ag tractor) that weighs about 8500 pounds with the Allied front end loader. Anyways, not much is as scary to me as the thought of sliding down the driveway on ice. Chains will be arriving soon.
So, on a more humourous note, and something I always figured will happen to me after I do slide...Did you and your wife clean your underpants yet??
....
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| kay
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2001-09-06 31633
Maybe plan to get the disposable kind, as those chains just may still slide on ice. When the wheels are spinning (to get traction), the chains will take the polish off the ice and give you better traction than no chains at all. When braking, the chains may drag a bit under the stopped wheel, but there will still be the possibility of a lot of slide. Hopefully that steep drive has some safe places to slide into (chains will help you get back out). Ice is good for sliding and skating, but no fun on driveway. ....
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| AndyMA
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 0 NE Conn
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2001-09-09 31704
I vote for loading of your tires with Calcium. My last 3 tractors have been loaded ( a Ford 1710, Ford 2120 and a New Holland TNS75). I also have a ballast block of concrete which I never use. I also almost never use a tractor without a rear mounted attachment and I always keep my bucket low ready to drop. Going up and down hills is always done at 90 degrees unless it also has a side slope I don't find the calcium messy at all. I taken 3 tractors over in my lifetime( 1 loaded and 2 not) and unless I'm mowing will never use an unloaded or at least unweighted tractor. Also in my opinion, unloaded tires "bounce" a lot more and are more likely to go over. I have been using tractors for about 45 years and been in plenty of precarious situations.
My 2120 has been loaded for 13 years and a couple of times when it's had punctures I just load it on the trailer and take to a tire dealer who pumps out the calcium , fixes the tire and pumps the same solution back it ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-09-10 31719
1710's are pretty good tractors loaded or not. Mine isn't loaded. I've thought about it but have settled into a habit of making sure the other ballast is adequate (implement on the 3ph and/or gravel in the loader bucket. I don't have any serious slopes that have to be worked. A neighbour down the highway got a used 1510 this summer. His son hadn’t operated a tractor before and was out moving stuff around with the loader. Given my habits, it was a little unnerving to see him carting full buckets around with no 3ph implement on. However, his dad knew about ballast. He also knew the rear tires were loaded and that his son wouldn’t be on slopes. It was reasonably safe with the loaded tires on the 1510 but it wouldn’t been very safe with my unloaded 1710.
I haven't had a puncture, but I'm aware of a mobile repair service around here. You park the tractor with the leak facing up. The company drives into your field, pumps out the fill and repairs or replaced the tire on the spot and pumps the fill back in. I think a company of this type serves most areas, and dealers know who they are. Such companies get a lot of business from farm tractor owners, but the filled rear tires on compacts are more manageable. Never the less, it's probably good to know about such business and to know a price for the service.
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| Michael
Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 0 Ok
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2001-09-11 31757
TomG, How'd you go about finding such a service locally? ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-09-11 31761
Michael: A local dealer should know who does the ag tire repairs in their area and many shops have a mobile service. I heard about the service I mentioned from a neighbour. He was with some friends in a town about a 1/2-hour from here. Somebody mentioned that somebody was getting a tire repaired in his field. Around here, everybody knows everybody, and everybody was curious so the repair became a spectacle. The company is not the big company around here that is known for doing most of the ag and transport tire work, so I guess the spectacle was good advertising. ....
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| Canuck
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 15 Manitoba Canada
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2003-01-25 48100
Denny, glad to hear no injuries. I bought the B2400 specifically to work on hills after my research showed it to be the lowest to the ground with the most power. I have front and back tires filled with the maximum of calcium to get that weight as low down as possible. I also want it there all the time as you never know when you need it in advance.
Jumping off a machine is a pretty risky option. Usually things happen so fast you can't do this.
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| DrMorgan
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16 Upstate NY
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2003-05-26 55685
No amount of ballast can compare with giving the tractor an extra set of wheels in the back. After I made my B6200 into a dual, I'm never afraid of tipping anymore, even on hairy slopes. See some photos at http://www.hoyhoy.com/kubota.htm
GO DUAL! It's the only way! ....
Link: Dual Kubota
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| DrMorgan
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 16 Upstate NY
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2003-05-26 55686
Click where it says web link "dual kubota" for pics ....
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 | Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 4299 Southwest MiddleTennessee
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2003-05-27 55764
Dennis,
This post looks like a great candidate for the Safety Section of the forum. Any chance you could move it over there so it gets maximum exposure? Thanks. ....
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| a2hockeydad
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 12 Ypsitucky Michigan
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2003-09-27 64989
Mark hit this on the head about 4wd. If you have 4wd leave in engaged when moving material. When the front and rear axles are locked together you have 4 wheel braking. When you have it disengage you only have the rear wheels braking. I performed the same stund the original posters wife, I was moving topsoil onto a slope I had disengage the 4wd so I wouldn't tear up the turf when tuning. I crested the slope and the tractor excellerated down slop. I paniced and lock the brakes and just slid into the creek. Fortunately the loader was lower and hit the creekbed keep me from going ass over teakettle. I could have lowered the loader, but instinct said push break harder. That lesson took me about an hour and backhoe to pull it out since the front wheels were beyond the embankment. When using the loader if you have 4wd use it!!!
If you only have 2wd have as much ballast as possible, I usually have a box blade which adds about 500# When I took the plunge I had the york rake which is good for about 250#
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-09-28 65007
That's good advice. I'm guessing that the tractor has a gear TX as does mine. Most HST's do some braking when the speed pedal is off but diesel engines have little engine braking themselves and my geared tractor does pick up speed going downhill with a load.
It's also good to keep in mind that brakes don't do a lot of good if a tractor starts sliding. There's already insufficient traction to hold the tractor when it's moving and braking would require more traction. However, brakes will get all tires into the act and may keep it sliding straight but most times a tractor will just keep sliding. It's better to be sure of you hills rather than having to gain some sliding experience. I don't have any myself. As mentioned, weight does increase traction. ....
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