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 | Kaz in Japan
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2001-09-26 32038
Hi, I'm a collage student in Japan, researching engines. Does anyone have an idea of power source for mower or tractor in a near future? For example, diesel, gas, hybrid system, fuel cell, electrical motor or something else. Thanks for your reply.
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| MarkS
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2001-09-26 32042
Well I don't have any good replacements to the current diesel or gas engines, but keep in mind tractors are in need of lots of torque. HP is nice, but its torque that gets the job done. HP is just a derivative of Torque and RPM. As a general Rule tractors dont rev very high so torque is much more important. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2001-09-26 32044
As an Engineer by training I know that the single biggest problem with replacing something is NOT finding the replacement, it is finding the replacement INFRASTRUCTURE. As an example, you drive gasoline powered cars for many years, then you get a diesel powered vehicle, now you have to find diesel filling stations, gas is useless to you now, you need different maintenance and repair parts and likely different tools also. The same is true of this subject. If someone were to try to sell a tractor fueled by anything but gas or diesel, they would have to simultaneously create a widely available, dependable source of this alternate fuel, as well as the necessary dealers, parts, etc., in order to support this new group of tractors. Therefore, IMHO, the 'change' will be a subtle evolution, not a dramatic, sudden change. Probably the first large step will be to supplemental systems which improve the performance of the EXISTING technology. Some of these systems are (albeit, not widely) available today, such as the HPS (Hydrogen Power System) which converts water back to the basic gasses of Hydrogen & Oxygen, then injects them into the intake of an internal combustion engine which BOOSTS an engines performance, while REDUCING emmissions and fuel consumption. I presently use a system of this nature and can testify to it's effectiveness, and I doubt they will ever find a fuel source any cheaper than water. Best of luck. ....
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| Norm
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2001-09-26 32047
One of those intermediate alternatives could be bio-diesel. There has been some good advances with it. It is renewable, grown from oil seeds of various sorts. The problems with it, as I understand, are: 1)its tendency to go bad - so greater care has to be given to its storage; and 2) reduced lubricating qualities. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-09-26 32051
Kaz;
I am also engineer (automotive, plastic and electrical) and have worked on alternative power systems.
For normal tractor work you need high torque and a continuous base line power. The be able to run continuously all day long and have a readily available supply of fuel. A hybrid system is not practical for this application as the power requirement is nearly constant and no benefit can be gained by storing energy in a battery for slowing or hill decent. As Murf said other power system really are not practible at this point although fuel cells could be if they are converting a common fuel to hydrogen before use.
More efficient engines such as the splitfire for Austrailia may be more efficient for a tractor, but I have not seen much press on its development lately.
Your question also included mowers. Most mowers/garden tractors are used for relatively short periods of time 3hr or less and in a area that has electrical power. Use of Ni metal hydride or Li Ion batteries could provide the power and torque required. The main problem would be cost. Currently mower are supplied with VRLA batteries which have much less power density to the Lion or NiMH.
I have a friend that works for the Osaka Energy research lab that may be willing to help and is in this field also.
Peters ....
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| Kaz in Japan
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2001-09-26 32052
Dear Murf,
Would you tell me more detail about HPS? It seems like based on current diesel combustion engine with added Hydrogen and Oxygen injection system, not Hydrogen engine. Is this correct? Also, do you think we can install a simple system to produce Hydrogen and Oxygen and water tank on the vehicle, or need some special gas station to refill gas? Thanks. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-09-27 32060
Don't know why my first post ended up in another thread--probably something I did. Also know if the post merits duplicating under the right thread, but for what it's worth, here it is.
Regarding cheap fuel sources: I recall reading a newspaper article sometime back. The article said that the dung from one elephant can satisfy the energy needs of a typical (I think it was) rural Thai family. The idea is to digest the dung and collect methane. I think there are some North American cattle operations where methane is collected and used as supplemental energy sources. However, I don't know how effective methane would be to fuel a tractor, and I believe there are some safety problems in its storage and use. But cheaper than water? Don't know. At least here in Canada not much is cheaper than water except maybe press releases from our leaders. Come to think about it maybe I like a comparison between dung and press releases better than with water.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-09-27 32061
Kaz;
Water injection has been around for a long time. The problem is that not every engine can use the injection due to its design.
The basic principle is that you ignite the fuel and inject the water thereby heating the water to provide steam and increased torque and power. The main problem is that most systems do not supply the water at the correct point of the combustion cycle and most engines are not designed to utilize the increased torque.
The engine I mentioned, which I gave the wrong name is the split-cycle. Thus engine utilizes the expansive energy of the gas more effectively by a radical design. Water injection on this engine design is quite effective due to the huge piston area to stroke distance capable in this design.
Peters ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-09-27 32062
Kaz, your assumptions are correct. The HPS is an electrolysis-based system which converts (very refined) water back into it's base elements of Hydrogen and Oxygen then injects into the intake manifold of an existing, conventional, internal combustion engine as a gas. Peter, this is NOT merely water-injection, about which I agree with your comments. The HPS system could also be used on ANY other system where any hydrocarbon fuel is burnt to produce enrgy, such as furnaces, blast-type, or heating, even coal-fired electrical generating stations could achieve gains in thermal energy released and reduced emmisions. I have one on my truck and it works like a charm. The nice part about it is the 'fuel' is basically a gallon jug of water which will run about 150 hrs. of engine time, basically equating to about 7500 miles of highway driving. Best of luck. ....
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| Steve in Buffalo NY
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2001-09-28 32093
Peters- When you describe a constant torque engine as being good for tractors, it sounds like a gas turbine engine output. That was exactly the reason that they were NOT good for cars - turbine engines like to run at a constant speed and weren't responsive enough for a car. Comments? ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-09-28 32095
As a matter of fact there is a tractor desendent that runs with a turbine and does a remarkable job. Its called a M1 tank and you can see it at you nearest army depo. I think the cost of a turbine is prohibative for most farming applications otherwise it could be used.
Peters ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-09-28 32096
Sorry Murf;
I didn't understand your first posting. HPS now sounds like a fairy tail. How does one hydrolized water, even very pure water without using a lot of energy? The electrode potential required for hydrolosis of water is high. How does one do this without using more energy than is produced by the engine? By the way ultra purification of water also requires significant amounts of energy.
Peters ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-10-01 32149
The conversion of H2O to the gaseous components is accomplished by new, proprietary patented technology. It is done using a very sophisticated electrolysis system. The water they recommend as 'fuel' for the unit, I understand, is distilled as a by product from some type of manufacturing process and they are able to get it at a very low cost on that basis. The unit has only a very low 12 volt power draw from the vehicle. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-10-04 32200
This is late in the discussion, but we're just back from our camp--the usual business of trying to get a bunch of work done before freeze up. The electrolyzing unit sounds interesting. I guess the question still is how much energy is gained and how much is used in electrolyzing the water. Something that I guess is obvious is that if it runs off the battery, it still produces a load on the alternator. Anyway, it would be a very interesting idea to me if some of the parasitic losses (heat or vibration) could be utilized to produce the electricity. The losses may be fairly low grade, but then it doesn't take very high voltages to electrolyze water either. ....
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2001-10-09 32325
What about CNG (compressed natural gas) . A lot of cars arebeing converted from petrol to CNG in PAKISTAAN. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-10-14 32409
I may be opening up a can or worms again but!!!
To split one molecule of water into hydrogen and oxygen requires 2 electrons and ~ 1 volt of potential. In the interm of the reation we have OH- with its corosive nature and H+ with its nature. In general the problem is that even inert materials like Platium will corrode over time in this enviroment.
Normally you need a salt to carry the charge between the electrodes and this adds to the corrosion and if the salt breaks down ie. chloroalkali reactions.
Given that we can distill water by solar if need be and is therefore free, and that we are not corroding expensive platium to produce cheap hydrogen we still have an energy conversion problem.
We require 2 faradays of electrons to convert 1 mole of water to 2 moles of hydrogen. This conversion will not be 100%. Conversion of the hydrogen to electrical power is the most efficent with a fuel cell and can be in the 90% + range, burning of the hydrogen in a internal combustion engine will give you less than 60% for electrical and to the locomotion less than 40% for power to the wheels.
My question is how do you convert one mole of electrons into more than one mole of electrons using this system. As I stated there is a energy imbalance here that must have energy supplied some how. Cold fusion was the rage of science for years until it could not be duplicated. All I am stating is that straight electrical conversion can not accomplish this and some electrolye or other material must be in the equation to supply energy into the system.
Peters ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-10-15 32423
Thanks for the interesting bit of textbook physics that underscores the 'no free lunch' idea. I guess that's why I commented about using sources of parasitic loss such as heat. I'm not up on recent technology for converting low-level energy sources such as exhaust manifold heat into electricity to run an electrolysis unit. Even with an effective technology, the problem of adapting a technology to an operating tractor might render such ideas impractical. I guess the corrosion process mentioned is related to electrodes placed in the water solution. A technology problem seems to be that there are energy sources cheaper than diesel fuel. Energy in a storable form, such as hydrogen, could be produced externally, stored and mounted on a tractor and used to supplement the diesel fuel, although the gains may be marginal. A technology that operated entirely on the tractor sounds like another magnitude of problem.
Anyway, this subject is something I follow from a general interest in such things, even though the amount of diesel fuel I buy isn't a significant cost. However, a more immediate problem might be what do diesel engine owners do if diesel fuel became unavailable. I believe a diesel can burn almost any oil (petro or bio) but I'm not sure if conversions are required. Likewise, I imagine that gaseous fuels, such as hydrogen or propane, could be introduced into the intake manifold and would supplement power from the diesel fuel. I don't know how much gaseous fuel could be used without some sort of conversion required. I think conversions required for a diesel engine may be extensive or impractical. It seems fairly easy to convert between gasoline and propane. However, I think a diesel engine has to depend on its injector pump for the primary energy input--I don't imagine an injector pump would handle propane very well, but who knows what can be done.
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-10-15 32432
At the start of this I stated that I thought that battery power might be an alternative for garden and compact tractors.
There are a number of reason that I stated this. One is the fact that I had driven an aluminum bodied experimental electric car at ECD in Detroit a couple of years ago. With Nickel Metal Hydride batteries the car had a top speed of ~ 100 mph, a range of ~250 miles and a 0-60 mph time of 5.5 seconds. The package looked like 4 door Honda Civic hackback. Excelleration is provided by the high linear torque of the dc electric motor.
For a compact tractor the electric motor would provide the high torque desired, a 3-4 hour run time, quite operation, if designed correctly a low CG (placing the batteries down low in the frame) and low maintance costs. This would be perfect for North American applications.
Electrical energy can be generated by photovoltaics, wind etc.
I deam of riding down the field and hearing the birds, wind etc. like I do at the Anstruther Lake near Apsley in the electric boat.
When do you want to start building?
Peters ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962 
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2001-10-15 32433
Aaah, yes, Peters. I don't know that they'll ever make an electric tractor that's affordable, but if they ever do, that's what I want. I've always said I want a tractor that's so quiet you have to look at the tachometer to see whether the engine's running or not. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-10-15 32436
Peters, I can enjoy (almost) your rather Utopian vision of field work of the future, only I enjoy it by employing yesterdays technology, a pair of Belgian draft horses in harness. Other than the odd problem with exhaust gas..... not a bad system, certainly helpful with the stress level..... ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-10-15 32437
I have debate more than once about fencing the front yard and getting the horses to clip the lawn too. Unfortunately they tend to be selective in the areas they like to clip. If I could just train them to do an even job!!!
I do like hunting off the four legger rather than the four wheeler. It takes a bit to teach them not to jump when you shoot over their shoulder.
Peters ....
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2001-10-16 32451
There was a strike by bus drivers in new Dehli some months ago when the indian supremme court ordered them to convert their diesel engines to CNG. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-10-16 32456
I just bought a new NMH battery for my cell phone. The price and taxes were almost $70.00CAN. I hope there is an economy of scale in building NMH batteries for cars, or maybe cell phone manufacturers are just gouging consumers. Of course even with inexpensive batteries, if electricity rates keep going up, then maybe there will be a return to genuine horsepower, even if 'grass-burners' probably aren't very efficient at energy conversion. The really good thing about horses is they illustrate the nature of finite energy resources. A horse owner either has enough pasture to keep a working horse or feed must be bought. Only so much grass grows in a year. Vegetation really is a form of solar energy and storage. Our economies have been based on exploiting stored vegetative forms of stored solar energy for so long we've mostly forgotten some bush logic. It's sometimes said that 'an acre of bush is an acre of bush.' What that means is that solar energy isn’t exactly free. A wood lot produces only so much heat a year from a wood stove once the primary growth is cut. It doesn't make a lot of difference if the bush has a few large trees or a bunch of small ones. An acre gets 44,100 square feet of sunlight. It takes a wood lot of a particular size to heat a particular sized house, and it doesn't make much difference what's growing on the lot. By extension, I guess that you couldn't get as much work from horses pastured in a wood lot as from the same sized grassland. I’m curious if a wood lot put into solar farm would produce the same amount of heat. At any rate, if horses could eat coal, then they'd be in the same business as the rest of the economy--exploiting stored solar energy until the stored forms are exhausted. Horses might be a lot quieter, although I believe I’d rather be stuck with starting an old diesel during the winter than starting some of the few working horses I’ve been around. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-10-16 32458
I am afraid that a horse is a relatively poor coverter of energy. You can not work a horse on grass alone as it does not convert grass as efficiently as a cow, ox, bisson etc.
Solar energy conversion does depend somewhat on the tree or plant species in the wood lot. Weed trees like alder grow very quickly. Corn or other plants can produce biomass more efficiently than other plants.
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-10-16 32462
I want to buy some of Tom's acres since they are 1.2% bigger than mine which only has 43,560 square feet.... Maybe some sort of mechanical loss in the conversion between a Hectare and an Acre ? LOL ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2001-10-16 32463
To say that Tom's acre is larger than yours is not nessecarily true. As trees or bush get larger they hang over your neighbors yard by about 15% of that perticular tree's outside diameter which by factoring in the circumfrence of the outer area of the field allows you to utilize energy that might lower the actual losses in conversion that exist. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-10-16 32466
Gee, happy to see everybody's on their toes. There is something around here referred as the old 210' square acre. Our camp is on one that was supplemented by purchase of some surplus public land. I squared 210 and came up with something different than a dictionary definition. Of course, all the land survey maps around here give the acreage figures as +/- so who knows. Guess there might be some technical reasons for differences among acres, but more likely that I'm simply wrong. Great lots in Ontario were surveyed by curvilinear survey methods while lots in much of the states were surveyed with rectilinear methods. I still remember the section roads in Nebraska that jog 100 or so yards every few miles. In addition, I don't believe that land in some of the states includes allowances for section roads. Could be wrong, but I don't know if owning a section really is exactly the same as owning a square mile (640 acres). I believe that lots in Ontario do not include land for concession roads, which are similar to section roads but only go along one axis on the lot grids. However, road allowances along every few lot lines, which form the ther axis of the lot grids are included in land areas. If you buy a place with a lot line road allowance on it, you can find a 66' wide road going through your place if somebody needs an access road. Anyway, I don't know if any of these things affects the size of an acre. Gets confusing. Guess I'm happy enough to simply be wrong here. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-10-16 32469
Ahh, Peters comes through with interesting observations as usual. Here's one of my own. Horses may not be as efficient converters of grass, but they are able to utilize horse collars while oxen use yokes. Although the plowing speeds of oxen and horses are similar, the horse collar enables horses to plow over a longer period of time and finish equivalent jobs faster than oxen. It might be something similar to a fuel input energy to drawbar horse power issue. It may be that horses are more efficient users of bio-mass in terms of the work performed. Anyway, I know this story from history rather than from plowing with horses. The horse collar is considered one of the major inventions in the western world. The collar basically freed up labour (peasants) as well as transpiration (horses) that could be devoted to soldering and warfare. The stirrup is another for similar reasons since soldiers could fight without getting off the transportation. I guess inventions that contribute to warfare are major from some perspectives. On another subject, I hope the coons around here get so fat on our corn bio-mass that they get caught and eaten. They managed to peel back the leaves and eat the corn off the cobs of all our corn several days before we intended to pick it. Left us with nothing but rows of plants with bare cobs still there. We didn't get one ear. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-10-16 32470
I am not sure that the land was surveyed in much of the States. What we think of as common in Canada as the Queens surveyor reference points etc. don't exist in the south or the east as far as I can determine. In Kentucky we had to sort out the farm's boundaries. It turned out that the house was over the line, depite the fact we owned 30 acres. 40 if you counted the elevational changes.
The area that was out was undeeded to anyone living. The lots below that were a problem were unclear as to the dimensions as they mentioned old trees and rocks are reference points. These deeds were filed in the 70's.
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| seanwr400
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2001-10-16 32473
What about using alcohol? Just grow a little extra corn each year and make yourself a still? I would think that this could work if the motor was designed to run on it from the get go. I have heard that using alcohol as fuel can be very tuff on the valve train of a motor,but if you come up with a better way of lubing the top end of the motor some of these problems would go away.
OK guys tell me what is wrong with this idea? There has to be a hole in it or we would be doing it..... ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-10-17 32476
I did some arithmetic and found that a 208 foot square comes within 4 sq. foot of the dictionary definition of a acre, which is given as 4840 sq. yards, and 208 is a number I seem to remember. It's probably a matter of local history why there are 210' plots here that were severed off and sold as acres. As mentioned, rural land often was severed and swapped by informal 'landmark descriptions' so specific ownership questions can get very complicated despite the nature of original great lot surveys. In an attempt to make my ramblings relevant to rural living, if not tractors, I'll note that we had our camp surveyed to see if a utility pole was on our property. The surveyor never could reconcile one corner or the back line. What he said was that isn't uncommon, but interestingly, that the courts tended to uphold traditional property lines over formal surveys in disputes. He asked us if anybody had ever told us a bore-hole in a rock marked the property corner. The original surveyor indicated the corner was an iron bar, but a later survey by the same guy indicated the corner as marked by a bore-hole. Nowhere in his field notes is an indication that he replaced his bar with a bore-hole. The bar can't be found, and the bore-hole could have been from a surveyor or could have been from blasting. Our surveyor said that if anybody ever referred to the hole as the property corner, then courts would likely accept that irrespective of any formal survey. The relevance to rural living is that as standards for things like septic systems become more stringent, relatively small pieces of land can make the difference whether a property can have a septic system or not. If a property is purchased where there are old fences inside the survey lines, it's a good idea to figure out if anybody thinks of the fences as property boundaries. If so then some purchased land could be successfully disputed, or various permit processes could become even more complicated. Something else relevant to rural life is that it’s good to conduct oneself in a manner that doesn’t lead to disputes with neighbors. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-10-17 32477
Tom, both surveyors were right, the borehole in the rock is were the original surveyor placed the iron bar that marked your property's corner, now that the bar has rusted away to nothing, the borehole left behind marks it's location. In this part of the province it was common to build 'rock cairns' (beehive shaped piles of small feild stones) over the bars, now years later, the center of the pile is the best available evidence of the bar was. ....
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2001-10-21 32574
My knowledge about diesel buses in India is limited to what i read in the newspapers. And i think that there are no diesel buses or any other diesel vehilces running on CNG or LPG in PAKISTAN. But PAKISTAN has now the world's largest no. of motor vehicles using CNG. These are almost all are petrol cars and small pickups which have been converted to CNG and some to LPG. I think the conversion for diesel vehicles is somewhat different than petrol. A diesel vheicle still needs at least 10% diesel in order to ignite the fuel mixture whereas in petrol vehicles there are spark plugs to do the job.
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2001-10-21 32576
I got this web site from the best and the cheapest internet mag SPIDER , which has a web site
www.spider.tm
The link is from
http://www.spider.tm/jul2001/top5.shtml
and the link itself is
www.cng.com.pk
....
Link:
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| David Waite
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 43
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2001-10-22 32607
Alcohol is very big in south america. The main problem is hard starting in cold weather, and I think you have to set the advance up on engines to keep pinging down.With the new valve trains being built for unleaded I think they can handle to fuel better. They started to convert over after their gas crunch in the 70's, 80's. ....
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| Nuclear_Weapon7
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2001-11-06 32985
Many small suzuki pick ups in Hyderabad are running on LPG (liquefied petroleum Gas). Here are some web sites
http://www.wps.com/LPG/
http://www.lpga.co.uk/contents.htm
http://www.lpg.com/non-flash/index.html
http://www.e-lpg.com/index.htm
....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-11-07 33009
I've never been certain of the distinction between propane and LPG. My impression is that propane is a more refined product and that it is one of the components of LPG. My impression also is that the same equipment can burn either propane of LPG but different sized jets are used. I know that many commercial trucks and taxicabs converted to propane in Toronto when I was living there. Lower cost was the main reason for conversion, but I'm not sure how they fared with the recent speculative run-up in propane and LPG prices. There were a couple of limitations about the conversions though. Most families going the airport didn't want a propane cab, because there isn't much trunk (boot) space. Propane vehicles also can't go into underground parking garages. ....
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| Bird Senter
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 962
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2001-11-07 33010
Tom, not being a chemist, I won't attempt to describe the differences although searches for "liquified petroleum gas" (LPG), "propane", and "butane" on a search engine will get more information than I could hope to understand. But I think (maybe someone knows better) that the main difference in propane and butane is the fact that butane can freeze (solidify) at higher temperatures than propane. When I was a kid, we had "butane" for several years, but the tank was buried in the ground to keep it from freezing in the winter (and that was in southern Oklahoma where we didn't have severe winters). We later moved to another place with an above ground tank that supposedly used propane that wouldn't freeze up. LPG was the term used for both, and an appliance, engine, etc. that uses one can also use the other. In other words, I think it's kind of like talking about the difference between #1 and #2 diesel. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2001-11-07 33013
In every day terms LPG and propane are the same thing, there are differences between the two, but your stove or vehicle won't know the difference. If it is of any concern look at the link below. Butane is a completely different animal again, as is Natural Gas. From a practical (gas burning implement) point of view the main difference is only the amount of BTU's (British Thermal Units) per Litre (or Gallon) which means the orifice which meters the amount of gas consumed needs to be varied between them in order to keep a constant thermal output. Best of luck. ....
Link: Ontario Propane Association Reference Data Page
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2001-11-07 33015
Clarification
Hydrocarbons - molecules made of hydrogen and carbon atoms.
Organic chemicals - molecules made of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen - normal building blocks for living organisms.
Methane - 1 carbon atom and 4 hydrogens - gas at all normal pressures
Natural gas - methane gas with some impurities - such as ethane
Ethane gas - 2 carbon atoms and 6 hydrogens
Propane gas - 3 carbon atoms and 8 hydrogens - gas at room temperature (25C)and pressure (1 atmosphere).
Butane gas - 4 carbon atoms and 10 hydrogens - gas at room temperature and pressure
LPG - can be propane or butane or miture of both. Butane content is reduced in colder climates as it may not gasify at colder temperatures.
Gasoline - mixture of hydrocarbons - value based on octane content - 10 carbons and 22 hydrogens
Diesel - mixture of hydrocarbons and organic - longer carbon chains than 10 average ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2001-11-08 33027
Thanks for the distinctions folks. I think that somewhere I heard the term 'liquefied natural gas.' I think I concluded that it must be the same as LPG. I know that a natural gas furnace can run on propane, but different jets are needed, so I extended that to the idea that going from propane to LPG in a vehicle. I'm happy to hear about the propane/butane distinction. When I was growing up everybody called them 'butane tanks.' Sometime ago, I realized that now everybody calls them 'propane tanks.' I always wondered what happened to butane. I guess I must have been moving north all the time. Well, I did start out in L.A. in ’42, and been going north every since except for four years in the Air Force that swung me south to Texas and Mississippi for awhile. Don’t know, maybe I’m magnetic or something. Since now I know that butane freezes, another curiosity I have is exactly what is 'cetane.' My impression is that it's the diesel equivalent of octane in gasoline. I believe that octane has become simply an energy content measure, but it originally referred to how much octane (the hydrocarbon) that the gasoline contained. I suspect that diesel 'cetane accelerant additives' are actually 'cetane,' which is probably a specific hydrocarbon. Ending on a wrinkle that has little to do with tractors, I'll note most crude oil contains a mixture of hydrocarbon chain lengths as well as a mixture of straight chain and aromatic chain hydrocarbons. Due to the presence of aromatic hydrocarbons, the portion of hydrogen to carbon isn't constant in gasoline or diesel. ....
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