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 | bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA 
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2005-03-20 108360
I am in the process of building a 24x32 shop to house my tractor and collector vehicle and wondered if anyone had any advise as to what I should and should not do. I am trying to prevent the situation of having to say after its built: "I wish I would have done that differently"
For instance:
Should I put in an overhead air line for a compressor with mutilple ceiling or wall outlets?
Advice on overhead lighting or electrical outlet placement.
Wall storage systems? Pegboard, shelves or cabinets?
Should I paint the floor with a high quality aircraft hanger floor paint?
And anything else you may have as suggestions.
The shop will be used for storage and just general activities. I am not a mechanic but do enjoy woodworking.
Thanks for your help.
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 | AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin 
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2005-03-20 108369
Having just built a 28 x 36, I can give a few opinions.
1) Build as big as you can, then go a little bigger (I wish I went bigger)
2) There are NEVER enough electrical outlets (I have 20+)
3) Plumb air lines if you can right away (still not done)
4) Consider "In floor" heat rather than a forced air blower (more efficient and warmer to work on)
5) Ceiling height of 10' is MINIMUM!! (code limited for me, I wanted 12' for a 10' door)
6) Painted floors are slippery, but add allot to the lighting (I used gray tinted sealer, rather than paint)
7) Painted/finished walls add more to the lighting (I used Sheetrock)
8) Consider a cheap ceiling fan for air circulation (Still not done yet, but definitely needed)
9) Pitch the floor more than enough for drainage (GRRRR!!)
10) hot/cold water is very handy (Definitely "next time.")
11) Bathroom? (How great would that be?!?)
12) Go with the largest electrical breaker box you can (I used a separate service with a 200A box)
Feel free to PM me. ....
Link: My Garage Project
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 | hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa 
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2005-03-20 108371
All the above are great suggestions. After building my third garage and being tired of ice and snow melting off a car or pickup that gathers at the bottom door gasket of the overhead door causing it to freeze down I finally learned something. If you have an outlet for a floor drain put it about 8-10 ft. inside the door and pitch the floor to the drain, no more frozen down doors. Even us old dogs can sometimes learn a new trick. Frank. ....
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| dklopfenstein
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 125 Southern Indiana
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2005-03-20 108372
Floor heat is the only way to go. I absolutely love it. Also, put in at least 10 ft wide doors...I put in 9 ft and now struggle with an 8 ft wide camper due to the extra width of awning, vents, step...only a few inches on either side. I wish I would have just went 11' x 11' on mine. Never know what you may end up wanting to store in there. I also hung white tin horizontally on the inside of mine. Looks clean and keeps the place bright. I have been thinking about the aircraft hanger paint...any insights to the durability of this? ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2005-03-20 108373
How is aircraft hangear paint different from regular concret floor paint? I did'nt know there was such a product. I did'nt paint mine but did use a sealer recommended by the concret co. It was a little slick at first but now is fine. Frank. ....
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| bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2005-03-20 108378
AV8R: Thanks for all of the great suggestions. I will use some of them. My garage will be a "daylight basement" garage with the above ground floor being a craft area for my CEO...a compromise to get my garage. That way I will also get the bathroom on the above ground floor.
Hardwood: As to your question as to how aircraft hanger paint is different from regular paint...I'm not sure about this but I'm told true "aircraft hanger" paint is epoxy based and is expensive and needs to be applied by a professional. Any help on this one out there? I have always admired the durability, cleanliness and "squeakiness" of the floor of airplane hangers. I think I want to do this. Perhaps AV8R will have some knowledge on this.
In my attached garage, I hung 4X8 sheets of 3/8" pegboard on one total wall for hanging things. They have a lot of really quality hanging devices out there to hang all sorts of stuff.....expensive but I think it's worth it. I hung the sheets horizontally along one wall so the bottom 6 feet or so are sheetrock and then I put 4 foot high shelving. You don't want to hang things below 5 feet high or so. I may do this on all three walls in my detached garage.
Under the stairway to the above ground floor will be enclosed storage.
Great idea on the ceiling fan....would have never thought of that. I have plans for a hot/cold utility sink....have one in my detached garage and love it.
Also plan to put a high output, upright, handled water outlet on the concrete apron in front of the garage for hosing down equipment.
Any other good ideas? ....
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| AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 882 North Central Wisconsin
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2005-03-20 108401
I have heard of the epoxy based floor paints, but never as "aircraft hangar" floor paint. Most hangars I have been in have bare concrete, with oil stains for decoration.
Okay, one is carpeted (really) but that's just a little silly. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-03-21 108441
Definitely, when it comes to covered storage of any kind, experience has taught me to calculate the needed amount the same way I price jobs for relatives.
I carefully calculate to a very exact figure what is needed to do the job properly...... then I double it and then add another 30% for good measure. LOL.
Seriously, a shop can NEVER be big enough, too well lit, plumbed or wired, I know, I've tried. If you look at my picture # 2 you will see what I mean.
The original shop is the tall part on the left side. It is 40' x 50' with two 12' high bay doors in the far left side. Two years later the right side, the shorter portion was added. It is 25' x 50' being 3 bays for vehicle storage and one bay plus the extra space next to the tall portion as my workshop.
It is still not big enough, this year I want to extend the roof of the shorter portion out 15' to meet the wall of the main shop, this will give me another 15' x 50' area of covered, but not enclosed storage space.
Best of luck. ....
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 | beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan 
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2005-03-21 108450
My barn/shop is 28 x 36, with 12' to the roof trusses, and it's not big enough. With the tractor and implements stored in the barn, it really cuts into the shop room. The implements require enough room to be manuevered to the tractor, so you can at least double the square footage you think you need for them.
Consider putting a hoist beam in the roof of the shop. You will need at least 10' of headroom to make it practical, but the uses are un-limited. If you plan for it now, you can have the capacity built into the roof system so the hoist beam can be hung.
Seal your floor. You will be disappointed with yourself if you don't. I'm not familiar with aircraft hanger floor paint, but there are plenty of good epoxy based floor paints available that would do the job for your floor. Not only does sealing protect the floor from spills, it makes just broom cleaning a whole bunch easier.
Check your building codes. Some places have restrictions on square footage based on the main building on the property, and how many structures are allowed, along with a long list of other code requirements. ....
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 | grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine 
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2005-03-21 108472
3M has a newer product out for garage floors that seems to work good. Non skid, I think Home Cheepo has it.
Do you get any frost where you are? If so run your foam board out beyond you apron at least a foot. Rebar it back into the floor. I have some pics of a 28x36 I have under construction if your interested in looking at it. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-03-22 108495
grinder, a follow up from our discussion last fall and the ensuing experiment. The piece of 3/4" insulation is still laying on the ground next to the barn. As soon as it thaws from the ground so I can pick it up, I'll see if the ground is frozen under it. It's pretty well frozen-in still.
I'm guessing the ground froze under the board. ....
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 | Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2005-03-22 108530
You are getting some good advice here. When I bought my place with a 26 x 43 foot shop, I figured I'd never fill it. Wrong! It's pretty tight right now. Think at least 3-5 years down the road for what you would like to own. Then think of how to maneuver the stuff into it.
Guys have been suggesting taller doors. I highly recommend that. The previous owner had a short door and a tall door. He boxed in the tall door which is my wood shop since that is heated. Problem is my JD 4310 won't fit in the short door with the ROPS up. Not a problem in summer when I exit the back for mowing. Major problem in winter when the short door is my only option.
I also wish he had concreted the whole thing instead of just half. Also would have liked properly sloped floor drains, more electrical outlets (per others you can never have too many) and better lighting. ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2005-03-22 108550
Beagle
I am not sure if 3/4 in. will do it.
If you had said 2" I would have bet my
tractor on it. 4'x4' min. x 2".
Let me know if it worked. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-03-22 108568
4' x 8' sheet of 3/4" insulation, frozen hard to the ground. I'll bet my tractor that regardsless of the thickness, the ground will freeze, unless there is enough organic decomposition in the soil to produce some heat under the insulation. Insualtion only slows the transfer of heat, it doesn't create any.
The bets on...for next winter, grinder. My 7810 against your 7510. May the warmest soil win.
Take good care of my new tractor this summer (LOL) !!!! ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2005-03-23 108618
BEAGLE
Won't the insulation keep the cold from penatrating the ground, or help maintain the grounds yearound temp.?
We use this method a lot and don't seem to have trouble?
Mostly under slabs in unheated buildings and under post
and pad type construction.
I have a 30' lean to on the side of my garage, concrete pads
on 2" foam pads, no heaving?
What do you have for attachments? ....
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| danputtputt
Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 20 northern michigan
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2005-03-23 108623
Bvance-
Something I did last minute, when building my barn. Decided to go with 2 foot overhangs rather than one foot. Also did a 12 foot lean to on one side. Rather than making that side 2 foot overhang also, I just left the full length and created about a 4 foot overhang. Sooo very happy I did that. It gave a very pleasing appearance, and practical also. Under the 4 foot overhang (48' long) we put some chairs to relax in. Also it a quick way to get out of an unexpected downpour. Sometimes will use it to just temporarily get things out of the elements or rain. Many people have stopped and commented on what a great looking barn it is. I attribute that to the overhangs. The barn red siding and higher grade green shingles don't hurt either. Since it is located by the house also, looking nice was a high priority. Oh, also in the back special ordered a 42 inch door. Can drive my motorbikes out that door with ease, rather than pushing them back out. Highly recommend the wider rear door. Little $ exra with nice payback. Best of luck, Dan. ....
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| beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-03-23 108632
grinder, just had a long conversation with a buddy of mine who owns a industrial general contracting company. His opinion is somewhere between the two of us. They have used insulation to delay frost penetration when they are against it on schedule to get foundations in the ground. Depending on the soil conditions, this delay tactic works reasonably well. With clean granular soils or engineered fills, they can delay frost penetration for a couple months.
The temperature of the ground roughly 6 feet down is about 50 degrees year round in these parts. If it doesn't get too cold too fast, the insualtion slows the escape of heat enough to delay frosty penetration, but wont stop it.
The larger the area you cover, the more effective it is. He doesn't believe a 4'x8' sheet of anything will be very effective. The more ground area you cover, the more effective the insualtion is for the center of the covered area. For a un-heated barn floor, his opinion is that if the floor area is large enough, it could delay the frost long enough at some center portion of the floor. Depending on the R-value of the insulation, it mat be able to keep the floor at the center of the barn from freezing over the course of the winter.
Since I had not considered the ambient teperature of the soil below the frost line, I will conceed the bet... partially...
I'll let you have a ride on my 7810 any time you want.
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I hope it wasn't disruptive to the thread. ....
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| brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1288 Wisconsin
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2005-03-24 108702
The insulation under a slab is a good idea for heated buildings always. For unheated buildings that will never see a furnace it is a waist of money, (in my area anyway).
I insulated my frost walls inside and out and under the slab in the house. I heat it year round but only at 50 deg. in times when I am not there. Bout Mid Dec. it takes 3 days to bring the slab up to a temp that will help keep the furnace off instead of turn it on. It kills me to get there on a Fri. night and by Sun. morning when I am leaving it finally heats up to a nice warm temp. The furnace heats the house fine but I can't wait till I run the tubes on the floor and finish it off right. Couldnt put in floor heat cause I have a on demand water heater and was planning to pour the self leveling compound over the floor later when I move. I left the trim off for that purpose on the floors.
Garages? I built mine before I joined here. Big mistake!! I had no plans for a tractor that needed a taller garage door. My plans changed and I am stuck with the short doors and the ever danger of creating a unexpected opening in the walls. I have not and will not finish my walls in the garage. The mice will have 5 generations of families peeing and crapping inbetween. I built mine too samll also 28x34. Thought that was all the cement I could afford and stay married especially since I went to a 6" floor with double the rebar. The only benifit to this is that I can have an excuse to build anouther one (right this time) ....
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| danputtputt
Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 20 northern michigan
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2005-03-25 108747
Sure would be interesting hearing about barn sizes. What was planned, what it ended up being, and what you wish it had been. The large cement cost bothered me too. Currently cemented lean to area. But used free carpeting in the 30x48 area. Really works well to keep dust down, until I can pour the rest. Simply sweep it or shop vac it when needed. Probably like the certainty of taxs and death: Your barn will never be big enough. ....
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| grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 677 central Maine
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2005-03-26 108758
Put down some stone dust and spray it with used motor oil. ....
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| bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2005-03-26 108772
Be careful with spraying oil to keep the dust down. In our area, Dept. of Ecology would be on you like stink on a mule and you would be fined big-time. ....
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| Marine
Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3 Rising Fawn, GA
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2005-03-26 108806
I have built several Garage/shop/pole barns and have a few ideas:
1. Build as big as you can afford - you'll use it all
2. Woodworking and Mechanical work does not belong in same building - sawdust where you dont want it and grease where you dont want it
Trusses are cheaper than stick built and provide great spans without center posts
3. An "L" shape building with a drive thru bay for tractor with implement attached is a real nice feature
4. You cant have too much light or too many outlets - my outlets are four feet apart and 4 feet off the floor - all around
5 Implement and tractor barns dont need concrete floors unless you like sweeping
6 A long central (towards the front) retractable air hose works well. You can always attach an extention. Water collection drains and pressure regulators need to be at each drop if you plumb air lines.
7. Collector vehicles deserve their special spot in a clean garage - not a work shop.
Good luck ....
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| 49tandc
Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 8 N. Central Florida
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2005-04-05 109453
If you haven't poured the slab yet, run some PVC chases, front-to-back on the pad, to be covered by the slab. Pop them up and cap 'em off until you want to run electric, water, etc. It is much easier to do under the slab than up and across the roof.
I set aside one 12' X 12' area as a tool crib - for sandblasters, cherrypickers,jackstands, etc... things you don't use often, but need to remember where you left them last.
Mount your compressor AS FAR AWAY from the garage as possible... A small outhouse-looking thing is PERFECT for the compressor. Pipe the air underground to garage.
install radio/stereo (hang speakers from the ceiling). DO NOT put in a TV - the idea is to work oout there and the TV doesn't help you get anything done (except hide).
Get a used dishwasher out of the newspaper. Use it to clean parts/tools/etc. (great for greasy car parts)
Call your local board of education - they have a depot where they get rid of things from the schools - like flourscent lights / welding tables from shops / GYM lockers that make great POL cabinets - and the stuff uaually goes really cheap. (8' flourscent lights with bulbs = $1 ea...)
49 T&C ....
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| hinomotohere
Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 5 Georgia
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2014-02-17 188967
I don't know how cold it gets there or how much snow you get in a year. If you're forced indoors during the winter you may want to consider adding a long, straight floor drain, similar to the ones you see around the perimeter of a swimming pool. There are options in steel, cast iron, and plastic to choose from. With the floor sloped properly toward the drain you can easily wash cars, trucks, or equipment without freezing your tail off outside. The water will drain off your vehicle too, if left inside for a few hours, instead of turning to ice. With the drain being a few feet longer than your longest vehicle a dry shop and a clean vehicle are pretty easily attained. Oh, nobody mentioned the addition of a 220 outlet for welding and such. I like having indoor water faucets in both hot and cold. It's so much easier to clean up grease, oils, etc. with hot water. A warning here though, use a good rubber hose, not vinyl, for hot water. I really liked the suggestion that was made about running the compressor air lines under the floor and out to a designated compressor closet. I think I'd use 3" or 4" pvc as a conduit instead though, more options and less risk of problems later. ....
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