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NH 7308 Loader

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J28s
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2003-03-11          50998

Have a NH TC33D & NH 7308 FEL. Has anyone taken off the FEL? If so, how long does it take to do it and put it back on. Trying to figure out if it's worth taking off to bush hog and do other things when I don't need it, then put it back on when I do.

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sweetbrier
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2003-03-12          51066

I have a tc40 with the 7308 loader and it took me all of 5 min to get it off and move .. it was so easy .....just try it ..make sure on are level ground and putting it on is easy too.... ....

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drcjv.
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2003-03-26          51887

I also have a 33D when I rake my driveway or do anything in tight areas I take off the loader. It is very quick and easy (remmember to move the control lever in all directions before disconnecting the hydro lines or they will be under pressure when disconnected and it will be very hard to reconnect them). I think the tractor and loader are great. Some people on this board tend to think after market loaders are better. I have had no problems with the 7308 and after tweeking the valve It has lifted 2016lbs with no problem. The only thing I would change on the tractor is it would benefit from some type of grill gaurd, the sloping front end is vunerable when doing loader work. NH does not list a gaurd for the 33 and the one for the 35 will not fit with the loader on. ....

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sweetbrier
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2003-03-26          51949

So tell me how did you tweek the 7308 fel to pick up so much mine will barely pick up 800 lbs I thought it was kinda wimpy.... ....

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drcjv.
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2003-03-27          51958

I also thought mine was weak too, so I had the dealer come out and check the valve settings and as I thought they were off. If I remmember correctly it was supposed to be 2100-+75 psi mine was at 1800 psi I talked the mechanic into setting at 2400 psi. Now it is an animal I have actually wieghed and lifted 2016lbs and I'm sure it would have lifted more but, I could not fit any more in the bucket. I know this sounds great but, it actually took the mechanic several trips and alot of talking on my part to convince him to do it. I think if you really understand the way the valves work and have all the proper fittings and gauges to check you could do this yourself. I wanted the dealer to do it for warranty purposes. ....

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TomG
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2003-03-27          51961

I remember a comment a few years back on another board. The guy said once or twice a year he lifts the front wheels off the ground with the loader and then inspects welded joints for cracks. Weight on the loader spreads cracks that can't otherwise be seen. Warranty or not, that seems like a good idea here.

There was a discussion here not long ago from a person with a small Ford where welds on a frame cross member broke off. The problem was noticed after heavy-loader work. It's also good to go very slow with heavy loader loads. Stories are around where tractors have been broken on bumpy roads from the combination of heavy loader loads and the 3ph ballast needed to keep the rear down.

It's good to have the extra capacity, but the possible consequences should be recognized. Not everybody who reads these discussion is likely to be up on these things.
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AC5ZO
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2003-03-27          51995

Increasing the FEL capacity (beyond spec) would expose the dealer to every liability lawyer in the county. I am certain that the 800# limit has a lot to do with the stability at high lifting on the lighter framed tractors.

I can't exactly work out how increasing pressure from 1800 psi to 2400 psi (+33%) could yield a load increase from 800 to 2000# (+150%). A 33% increase in pressure gives you 33% increase in lifting capacity. To do better than that, you have to change cylinders.

Loaders specify breakout and load capacity. Breakout load is much higher, because it is down low and uses the best leverage. Load capacity is what you can safely handle with the tractor/FEL combination.

I bought a TC45 and 16L FEL to get the capacity to move one ton loads. When moving heavy loads there is no substitute for heavy metal beneath it. Trying to do so will subject the lighter loader frame and lighter tractor to extraordinary loads and be unsafe.
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drcjv.
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2003-03-28          52037

AC5ZO I am not an expert, but I do know that all the experts that I have talked to Dealers, mechanics ect.. have told me that 600lbs psi increase is huge and that the increase in lifting capacity is not proportional but exponential thus a 33% increase in valve pressure yeilds much more than a 33% increase in lifting capacity. You may be correct about liability but the mechanic still changed the setting his boss may or may not know that he did it. With the right fittings and gauge this change could easily be done. As far as lifting heavy loads I don't lift over 2000 lbs loads on a regular basis, when I lifted the 2016lbs I was just testing the new setting capacity. Since then I have lifted many loads over 800lbs and it is great to know my little machine can lift over 2000lbs if I need it. When It comes to safty common sence is always important I never said you should change the settings lift 2000lbs to the highest level and go down a bumpy road in high range as fast as possible. It's great that your 45 works for you, but it was too big for what I needed so now I have the best of both worlds smaller tractor for getting into tight spots as well as 1 ton lifting capacity. ....

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E9-livin
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2003-03-28          52048

I think I would be concerned with the hoses and cylinders being subject to much more stress and pressure than designed for. You may be asking for trouble and not know it. The hoses or cylinders could be weakend from the higher loads and pressures and fail at the recommended working limits when you least expect it. New Holland limited the lift capacity for reasons not always obvious to us as the users. ....

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TomG
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2003-03-28          52053

I could be wrong but I'm guessing that the lift capacity increase would be the pressure increase times the ratio of the input to output cylinder diameters (a little tough to figure the input diameter on a gear pump though).

I ducked AC's subject of liability although I thought about it. Although the probability of an accident probably is extremely small, there's probably also a high probability of catastrophic results in most occurrences.

There's a good chance that if there were an accident that resulted in injury an insurance company would deny claims for medical costs. After all my insurance broker told me once that insurance is to cover accidents and something that can be reasonably foreseen isn't an accident. In such a case the only alternative would be to sue the insurance company, and also the mechanic, dealer and probably NH in a separate suit. Such is the nature of shotgun litigation. Damage settlements are typically made on the basis of ability to pay, so everybody and everything is sight is sued in hopes of finding somebody with money that a judge decides bears some small percent of the responsibility. Sounds like a nightmare and the whole thing probably would be better at producing lawyer fees than for paying medical bills. Much of modern times is neither of my making nor my choosing.

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drcjv.
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2003-03-28          52065

As far as safety and reliabilty you guys are probably right but I am not using my tractor to move 1 ton loads all day every day.( if I did I think the risk of failure could be great) In fact I don't know if I will ever need to. I just put the 2000lbs in to see what it would do. I have lifted many loads over 800lbs and now it does it with ease. Many limits set by companies come from just the situation you describe and not by actual mechanical limits. Some idiot with no common sence at all uses a piece equipment the wrong way gets hurt then sues everybody. Do you really need 50 decals on your tractor to know it could be dangerous or cause injury? I have a mustang with 650HP I don't take it down to home depot and on the way at a light launch it at 5500rpm and slam 2nd. Common sence must always be used. If I do need to move a 1 ton laod the proper cosiderations (given the increased risk)will be taken. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-03-31          52259

Increasing hydraulic pressure DOES NOT increase the lifting capacity exponentially. You also do not have to worry about how that pressure is derived.(ie pump type) As an example, if you have 1000 psi operating on 10 sq inches, then a cylinder will generate 10,000 pounds of push or thrust. It may only have a travel of 20" however, so reverse levers are used to transform that thrust into a longer travel with a lower load capacity.

My TC45 generates 2500 psi. That is two thousand five hundred pounds per square inch of pressure. That pressure is multiplied by the square inches of surface area on the hydraulic cylinders to determine the thrust. This thrust is decreased by the levers use in converting a few inches of hydraulic cylinder stroke into several feet of lifting, but this is a linear relationship. My TC45 with pallet forks attached will not pick up a pipe structure that I have weighed and know to be 1800 pounds. The reason for this is that the pallet forks make up the extra load and when the load moves away from the pivot point, the FEL capacity becomes much less. By the same token, I can lift the structure by taking the pallet forks off and lifting with slings on the quick attach plate.

I am just another member of this board, but I am also a mechanical engineer. I design and build equipment for a living: including hydraulic equipment.




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AC5ZO
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2003-03-31          52261

Three more things.
Increasing cylinder size is where the thrust or load capacity goes up according to the square of the diameter. A three inch bore cylinder produces over twice as much thrust as a two inch cylinder.
The only other way to increase loader capacity is to change the leverage to trade off lifting height for load. You could do this by changing the mounting position of the FEL cylinders, but I doubt that your mechanic did either of these things.
Breakout load is the higher load that you can produce with the bucket and its better leverage. You can move a fairly heavy item in excess of the FEL capacity with this feature. That does not mean that you can lift or safely carry that load with the main lifting cylinders. My 16LA does not have a relief valve in the loader valve body. I can overload the loader by using the bucket cylinders to lift a heavier load since the main cylinders will not relieve excess pressure. This places an extraordinary amount of stress on the loader frame, hydraulics, and tractor frame. If I need to lift at capacity, I lift near the FEL pivot points to get the best leverage.

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BUSBOY
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2003-03-31          52269

I don't understand all the complaints about the 7308 loader. I can pick up a full bucket of wet sand or dirt with no problem at all. Mine is as stock as could be.It only has 25 hours on it.BUSBOY ....

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drcjv.
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2003-03-31          52273

AC520 as stated in previous post I'm no expert I'm a doctor. I may be wrong, but I believe somewhere in your last two post you are saying that the lifting ability could not be increased by adjusting the valve on the loader. I can tell you that it is much stronger now than it was before and all the physics in the world can't change that. I will agree that the overall structural limits of the loader were not increased, but its ability to work up to those limits (fuctional limits) was definatly increased. It is also true that the valve was set too low to begin with from the factory. In any case I also agree with busboy the 33 with a 7308 is a great machine small and strong. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-03-31          52282

I never said that the lifting ability cannot be increased by adjusting the relief valve. It certainly can. The relief valve is there for safety, and you can increase the pressure (and lifting capability by adjusting it) to a point that it becomes hazardous to you and your equipment.

What I said is that if you increase the pressure by 33% you will get a 33% increase in load capability and that your load lifting does not increase "exponentially" as you stated previously. That is completely wrong and whoever told you that does not understand these systems.

I know for a fact that the 7308 is a very capable loader and will work well for you. I considered buying one myself. But, the results that you state do not make sense without qualification.

I was trying to explain how these systems work in ordinary everyday terms. I try to help people out on this forum when they have questions. I also will comment when someone publishes incorrect information; especially when safety is concerned.

Good Luck with your loader. If it does everything that you need, then it is a good value. Be safe. ....

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TomG
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2003-04-01          52328

I'll add my favourite hydraulics concept here. Pumps don't create pressure; they create flow. Loads create pressure. Without a load there can't be more than around 100-lbs. pressure in most open centered systems. Pumps are rated for how much pressure they can withstand, not how much pressure they develop, because loads develop pressure. Those ideas helped me understand this stuff a bit better.

In my terms, what AC is saying is that relief valves set maximum pressures that can be developed. In absence of a relief valve, the pump rating is the limit, and most pumps are rated far above relief valve settings. It's easy enough to turn up the relief pressure and gain power. However, engineers likely designed the loader for a specific relief pressure. Turning up the pressure works but also places operation outside of mechanical and safety design parameters. It's best if the possible consequences are recognized.

As I understand another of AC's comments, when the lift spooling valve is closed, it traps oil inside the lift cylinders. Many valves have their own relief valves for each cylinder line. It's possible to place high loads on the lift cylinders when using max breakout force by levering the bucket against the ground. Some valve assemblies would relieve that type cylinder pressure and some won't. Many cylinder relief valves protect against load shocks (high loads result when bumps are hit while driving with a heavy bucket). Most shock load relief pressures are over 3,000 lbs.--much higher than typical system relief pressures.
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AC5ZO
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2003-04-01          52352

Tom gets it. Pumps do provide flow, but can also develop pressure. In general, the pressure is provided by the load, but if the flow is cut off by a valve, then there is no flow and pressure is developed without a physical load. The relief valve bypasses the flow and limits the pressure if the pressure exceeds the relief valve setting. This setting is variable and can be adjusted to unsafe levels.

The flow is determined mostly by the size of the pump and driven speed, but the pressure is a complicated function of part clearance, pump speed, applied engine power, and mechanical strength. The relief valves sole purpose is to limit the peak pressure seen in the hydraulic system. Without a relief valve, system pressures can hit huge peaks and can break hoses, fittings, pumps, etc.

I do not have specific information on the 7308 loader. I have a 16LA. The 16LA does not have a relief valve in the joystick valve on the right fender. The only relief valve on my TC45 is in the hydraulic manifold/diverter valve. What does that mean?

It means that you can overload the main lift cylinders and the pressure will build with the applied load. Trapped fluid cannot flow out of the closed system until the joystick spool valve is opened. So, if you use the bucket cylinders to lift a heavy load, you could develop very high pressures in the main cylinder hydraulics. (I am guessing that could be 4000 psi or more) This high pressure is not relieved, because the fluid is trapped by the spool valve.

Many loaders have a relief valve built into the joystick spool valve body. NH does not, at least on the 16LA, and I am guessing that the 7308 is the same. That is not a major problem, but it is good to understand the systems. As Dirty Harry said, "A man has got to know his limitations."

I have not dug into this problem to see what ramifications apply to the 3 Point Hitch, but so far, I can only find one hydraulic pressure relief valve on my TC45. If this applies to the other tractors in the TC line, then turning up the relief valve also increases 3PH pressure. I think that there are enough people that can tell you what will happen with excessive 3PH load on a compact tractor. That is why NH loaders and backhoes use frame mounts to keep the heavy loads off of the 3PH.

If you choose to turn up the pressure setting on the hydraulic relief valve, you are entering an area that will cause shorter equipment life and possible danger. This is much the same as being able to tune up a race car engine to develop 1000HP. It can be done, but there are consequences with respect to the life of the engine and safety of use.
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TomG
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2003-04-02          52434

Another basic idea that helped me sort this stuff out is that only enough pressure to move a load can be developed. If a cylinder moves, no further pressure increase can occur. The pump simply fills a cavity of increasing size. A big pump will move it faster than a small one but pressures would be the same. A dead-ended line might be thought of as a zero physical but an infinite hydraulic load.

A couple of ideas here about specifics (and please keep in mind that I have no engineering background). Spooling control valve assemblies can be fitted with a large number of features. I suspect that most used in loader applications have circuit relief valves but the pressures are the system relief. Most also have check valves so a loader wouldn't crash if the input line ruptured. Many also have system relief in addition to circuit reliefs.

I suspect that in a well-engineered loader designers use valve assemblies that have circuit relief and select hose that will withstand relief pressures. Hydraulic high-pressure hose comes in a wide range of ratings. From SAE J17 100R1 where 1/2" hose is rated for 2000 lbs. to at least 100R9 where 1/2" hose is rated for 4000 lbs. These are working pressures and bursting pressures are about four times greater.

The point of all this is that turning up the system relief pressure may not affect protection provided by the circuit relief, and burst hoses or broken cylinders may not be any more likely. However, doing so still alters the designed operating parameters. A question is whether designers engineered the loader frame and tractor balance to assumed system or to circuit relief pressures.

This is getting long so I'll stop blabbing. Hope it's of some interest. A final note is that most 3ph's have their own relief valves (mine is set about 3,600 lbs. It looks like a large hex-head bolt end near the flow control valve.


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AC5ZO
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2003-04-02          52444

I agree with pretty much everything Tom has said. Any differences would only be in the specific wording that I might choose. I have spent some time recently tracing the hydraulic schematics for the TC45. There are check valves in the FEL circuits as Tom describes, but I do not recall seeing another relief valve other than the main relief on the hydraulic manifold. I did not specifically check for another relief valve on the 3PH. One model may have it while another might not.

Tractor designs vary and there is considerable competition for your buying dollars. A former line boss at Ford said, "Parts left out do not cost anything and don't require replacement." There is pressure on the design engineers to make any product better, cheaper, and simpler.

I look at the TC45 hydraulic circuit and I can only make comparisons that I expect apply universally to the NH line. If I was designing a tractor hydraulic system, I would have a main system relief as well as a secondary relief in the FEL control valve. From what I have found, NH did not go this way. I am not saying that the NH design is bad, it is simply not quite as robust as what I would like to see.

I am an inventor and I design medical and other equipment for a living. I have seven US patents for these devices. A failure in a medical procedure can have considerably higher consequences than a burst hydraulic line on a FEL. So, my general point of view is toward redundant safety mechanisms. If you applied all of those concepts to a compact tractor, it would cost twice as much as it does today.

Perhaps we can close this thread with this thought. We started out with a fairly simple question about the 7308. I got involved when a writer talked about turning up what appears to be the only hydraulic safety relief on the tractor and others asked how to do it. Common sense should prevail. I do not feel that it is worth anyone's life to adjust equipment beyond safe limits to move the occasional large load. Tractors are potentially dangerous without pushing them beyond design limits. I use a 95% rule when I buy equipment. If it will do 95% of what I think I need, then it passes the test. For that other 5% I will rent a larger tractor or hire someone else to do the job. ....

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drcjv.
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2003-04-02          52469

The valve on my loader that was adjusted was on the FEL control valve. I think the 7803 does not just have on valve the mechanic showed me the one on the control (fender) as well as another down near all the hoses. Although I don't agree with all the opinions above I do agree that nothing is worth causing an injury or loss of life. That being said It is still my opinion that by icreasing the pressure on my loader in and of it self does not mean this will happen.(loaders don't kill people , people do.) Many if not all types of power equipment have a level of danger in using them, compact tractors included, and many have safety devices to decrease that danger. The most important safety feature on any type of equipment is the operator. If you don't understand this than you really should not be using power equipment. Many limits that are set on equipment are done so to reduce the idiot factor. therefore reducing the chance of a lawsuit that would not have happened in the first place if the user would have used comman sence to begin with. If the user does not have enough sence to understand the increased risk that may come with changing a valve setting than you are right they should not do it period. ....

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TomG
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2003-04-03          52507

What I got from chewing our ways through all this is that a valve assembly is part of an overall designed system, and they should perform within assumptions of the design.

There are issues here for homegrown loader systems. Bargain after-market valve assemblies may not be appropriate for an overall design. I hadn't really thought this through before and I have been thinking about a new valve assembly for some years since I'd really like to have a fast dump feature for the bucket circuit.
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AC5ZO
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2003-04-03          52519

The fast dump systems only connect the input and output of the dump cylinders together in a short low resistance circuit. You can do this with a single additional valve to connect those two hydraulic lines via a pair of T connectors. The valve could also be hydraulic rated solenoid valve. It should not affect any other system if installed properly.

The joystick valve for the 16LA has the quickdump feature built in. The joystick control is nice, but pricey. I think that you could make a pretty nice looking installation if you used a normally closed soleniod mounted on the frame of the loader. Hit the electrical switch and you have quick dumping. Otherwise use the regular control and you have normal dumping. ....

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