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 06-24-2001, 15:50 Post: 29583
Jeff Jump



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 Loader control

When I attempt to use the lift valve and the curl valve on my loader at the same time, the loader drops like a rock and the bucket doesn't curl at all. I have a buddy with same set up I have & he doesn't have problem. I suspect the hydraulic lines are not connected right & I need to swap the lines on the curl circuit. Using the controls by themselves, I don't have any problem although the curl circuit is slow and erratic. Any thoughts from the experts????






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 06-24-2001, 16:02 Post: 29584
John Miller, III



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 Loader control

I'm certainly no expert, but it sounds like some hydraulic lines are improperly hooked up... A simple solution... compare your buddy's exact "working" setup and you match his...






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 06-24-2001, 18:43 Post: 29585
Jeff Jump



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 Loader control

Thanks. I'd like to do that, but my buddy does not live near me. Also I was hoping to get a little education on how the hydraulics work on my Yanmar too, i.e. what to be careful of. I would like to add a hydraulic top link but am not sure how to tap into the hydraulic circuit, and is there a separate circuit for the 3 pt hitch or is everything run with the one pump???.........JJ






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 06-25-2001, 05:20 Post: 29594
Paul Fox



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 Loader control

If the circuits work properly when used independently, the hoses are most likelyi hooked up properly. If the hoses were NOT connected properly, either the curl wouldn't work at all, or it would work backwards (I have that happen occasionally when re-attaching my hoses after using the curl outlets to run my back blade, and have to swap them) I'm no hydraulics expert, but I suspect the problem is more likely internal to the control valves, allowing oil from the lift circuit to bleed off somewhere. Has this always been a problem with the machine, or did it just start? Another possibility is that there isn't adequate oil flow to run both circuits at the same time. Have you checked the oil level? Does the severity of the problem change with engine RPM, ie, worse at lower RPMs? If it's less of a problem at higher RPM's, that would indicate an oil flow problem, probably due to either low oil, a leaky pump or a partially plugged filter.






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 06-26-2001, 16:02 Post: 29627
TomG

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 Loader control

I haven't got an off the top of my head explanation, but I'll go through a basic open centred hydraulic system, which might be some help. In an open centred system, the pump circulates oil continuously through the high-pressure line and back to the sump. Hydraulic control valves are hooked in series in the high-pressure line. The control valves are called open centred because the centres are literally open unless the valve is operated. Oil flows through open centred valves unimpeded and returns to the sump unless a valve is operated. Operating a valve closes a centre. At the same time, a line to one side of a hydraulic cylinder is opened to the high-pressure line, and the line to the other side of the cylinder is opened to the exhaust, or return line, to the sump. Closing the centre blocks oil flow, which allows the pump to develop high pressure in the line, which in turn causes the cylinder to move. An operated cylinder continues to move until the valve is released or system relief valve pressure is exceeded. Double acting cylinders, which are typical on modern loaders, have oil on both sides of the piston and can be powered in either direction, depending on which line receives pressure. However, the other line always much have a path to the sump, because oil on the passive side is displaced as the cylinder moves. So, making these connections is the job of the control valve. Pull an operating lever one way, the centre is blocked, one line to a cylinder is connected to pressure and the other to the sump. Push the operating lever the other way, the process is reversed, and the cylinder moves in the other direction. A loader spooling control valve assembly essentially is a set of two control valves in series in a common case--one valve for each set of loader cylinders. That's a basic loader setup, and operation is the same whether a joystick or an in-line set of valve handles operates the control valves. However, there are additional features, such as float and regenerative circuits, and there other fancy valves and hookups. SCV's also are available in conventional and power-beyond versions. There are a couple of things to note about open centred systems. The first is that valves are hooked in series and the outlet from one SCV can be connected to the inlet of another. In fact, it's common for the outlet of a loader SCV to be connected to the 3ph input. Also, since the valves are in series, only the first valve gets pressure when several are operated simultaneously, and only the first cylinder moves (some movement of a second cylinder will occur in conventional, as opposed to power-beyond, SCV's (A power-beyond SCV has three ports while a conventional valve has two).






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 06-27-2001, 09:01 Post: 29636
TomG

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The first thing I thought of when I read 'bucket flopping down' is that the bucket was being put into float. However, I don't think that floating the bucket should stop the curl from working. It doesn't on my loader, but my curl valve is before the lift valve, so the curl would have priority anyway. I don't know if my hydraulics basics from yesterday were necessary. But at least I can take off from there to describe connections. I'm assuming that it is an open centred system, there is a float function but no fast-dump function, and the loader is powered from an auxiliary hydraulic system which is fed from a manifold block and diverter valve. If so, you can trace connections by noting the port codes stamped on the loader valve assembly. If it's a 2-hose system, one port should be stamped 'IN' or 'P'. The other port is the output. If it's a 3-hose power beyond valve, there should be a port stamped 'IN' or 'P', another stamped 'PB' and a third that is sometimes stamped 'T'. I'll describe the power beyond connections. A line should go from T directly to the TX case. One line should go from IN (P) to the high-pressure port on the manifold block. Another line from PB back to the other manifold port. A diverter valve on the block should be in the auxiliary position. Markings on the manifold block ports are variable, but A manual can be checked to identify the ports and diverter valve position. Loaders have cylinder pairs for lift and for bucket curl. The cylinders in each pair are connected in parallel on the loader frame. Each control valve on the SCV has two hoses. Hoses from the same valve must run to opposite sides of one cylinder pair. It doesn't make any difference which way they're are connected. Reversing the connections just reverses the operation. Which pair of hoses goes to which cylinder pair also doesn't make any difference unless there is one valve has a float function, which is usually connected to the lift circuit, but either valve will drive either function. However, it does make a difference that the high-pressure hose goes to IN and the return hose goes to PB. Otherwise a lot of damage can happen. A valve with a float function will have a longer barrel sticking out back of the valve than other valve. I havenít seen a control valve with a fast dump (regenerative) function, but they may have the same length barrel as valves with float.






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 07-06-2001, 22:17 Post: 29862
Jeff Jump



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Many thanks TomG and everyone else. I haven't had time to experiment but I've looked closely at the lines and valves. I assume I have an open centered system, and my hydraulic cylinders have only two hoses per. Looks like hydraulic oil comes into the valve manifold at the side. There are staggered ports in the center of the manifold, two per valve, and the return is on the opposite side of the valve manifold. I traced the lines to one of the loader cylinder's and one of the curl cylinder's, and they seem to be opposite of each other i.e. paralled port of lift to cylinder rod end of cylinder, and same port for curl valve goes to opposite end of cylinder from cylinder rod, if that makes sense. Simple matter to swap hoses and I will try that.
What doesn't make sense to me is that with hydraulic oil coming in on the side of the valve manifold, seems like the first valve would be a priority valve. On a centered system that was described, with the priority valve in operation, how would the secondary valve get any oil??? Seems like the priority valve would 'block' any pressure until the valve is released.
Also, doesn't seem reasonable that this is just a capacity problem, since the system IMMEDIATLY fails when I try to use both valve at the same time. Engine rpm's are a factor in how responsive my loader controls are but not a factor in the original problem definition.
Last thing is I don't believe I have a 'float' capability or position with my loader unless we're talking about lowering the bucket to the point where it just 'floats' on the ground, that I can do. Even at that I'm skeptical since I can lift the front of my tractor about 12 inches off the ground with the bucket. Anyway, just status for everyone who responded. I really appreciate your efforts and this board. What a great resource for a beginner like me!!!! JJ






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 07-11-2001, 08:10 Post: 29979
TomG

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I've been 'out-of touch' up at our camp since Friday. We spend a lot of time there during the summer, and maybe I develop new perspectives. One thing I noticed in this discussion is that I carried on at length without realizing that no mention of the kind of tractor was made. It does make a difference if it's an open or closed system. It also makes a difference whether the loader valve is power-beyond or not. In terms of tracing connections, a good way to sort this stuff out to think of the SCV assembly (everything that controls the loader) as a set of separate components. There is an inlet section at one end that will have one hose. There is an outlet section at the other end that will have two hoses if it's power-beyond and one hose otherwise. In between the inlet and outlet sections are control valve sections--two sections for a basic loader. Each control valve section has two hoses, and its two hoses go to opposite sides of the same cylinder(s). From the description, it sounds like there is only one hose on end of the SCV assembly, in which case it isn't a power-beyond valve. Most likely, the inlet and outlet hoses run to a manifold block/diverter valve. Markings on manifold blocks aren't always obvious, but with most hook-ups, the diverter valve should be in the auxiliary position and the high-pressure and return ports connected to the SCV inlet and outlet respectively. You can probably get the correct inlet and outlet hose connections from your friend whose unit is working. The hose connection should be correct with those inlet and outlet connections and as long as each pair of control valve hoses go to opposite sides of the same cylinder. It doesn't really make any difference which control valve hose goes to which side of a cylinder. If the hoses are reversed, it just reverses the direction the cylinder moves with respect to the valve handle or joystick. It makes sense to me to verify that the tractor has an open centred system, determine if it's a power-beyond valve and whether the loader SCV outlet feeds the 3ph and finally that the hose connections are OK and then go from there..






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 07-15-2001, 08:17 Post: 30093
Mickey Grider



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 Loader control

I too have the same problem with the loader dropping when using both valves at the same time. I have just purchaced this tractor and felt the hydraulics were connected wrong. After much research, I don't believe that to be true. The loader lifts when the control is pulled back and lowers when pushed farward. The bucket curls back when pulled to the left and dumps when pushed to the right. Also, the dump feature is painfully slow; 6 to 7 seconds as compaired 3 to 4 seconds for the other features. The lower feature is fast, if the bucket is loaded, probably 1 to 2 seconds.

I have put over 40 hours on this tractor in the last few weeks building a retaining wall, moving a mixture of river washed sand, gravel and rocks. I have been living with the problem but the valve is getting worse. The loader lift capacity is dropping, the valve has started a small leak and will not lift if pulled all the way back, but will lift if pulled partially back. Because of the changes I will need to take it apart soon. I also supect the lift capacity of the 3-pt is less than is should be.

The valve is setup with the power beyond and float features. I do question the bypass being plumbed back into the return line and not the sump. The tractor is also equipped with 2 valves with ports on the rear. The tractor is a M-F 1145 with a 1246 loader. Every thing else appears to work well.

The loader valve is made by Dunkel Fluid Power in St Charles, IL (the first letter D is hard to read, it could be another letter) with the numbers 0521DH 1627GA on it. So far I have not been able to find this manufacture for a repair kit or repair information. I need the manufactures phone number or e-mail address.

I want to thank everyone on this site for all the great information. I have been reading the posts for the last 6 months. The CTB helped me to select a tractor and keep the cost down.






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 07-15-2001, 08:23 Post: 30094
Mickey Grider



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 Loader control

Sorry Mickey, My post listed your name instead of mine, Steve B. Anyone know why or what did I do wrong?






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Discussion Boards > Active Subjects > Messages as Posted > Loaders Forum

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