Go BottomA Second HST Question re HST reliability vs gear
 | Pete R
Join Date: Posts: 1 
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1999-09-08 7746
First, thanks to all those that answered my first question and thanks to dsg and PaulB for the offer to try their equipment out. I live in Mass and can't take the time to travel that far. (I do have relatives in Pompey/Jamesville (Gates Road?) south of Syracuse and they have a bit of land. My brother-in-law even has his own bull dozer. I'm jealous.)Anyway, this is a question about HST reliability. I'm convinced after hearing all of the people on this board and trying one machine myself that HST is the way to go. However, what is the repair history of these HST units? It "feels" like it would be subject to more problems than gear drive, but since I don't know how they work, maybe not. Do people rebuild HST transmissions? What parts actually wear? Are they less rugged? (e.g. you don't see them on big heavy equipment, but for compacts they are good enough?)thanks again for this great discussion board.Pete ReinhardHolliston, MA
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| Jason MacKenzie
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1999-09-08 7769
Pete,12 years with my JD 855 absolutly no problems with it. I didn't do light pussy mans work with that machine either. That Machine really worked Hard! Not a hint of Hydro problems whatsoever! I just traded it in April, got $13,000 for it, towards a trade in on my JD 4200.. That is only a $3,000 less than what I paid for it in 1987! Can you believe that? Awesome deal! Believe me, you have nothing to worry about buying Hydro! If you did at least one of us would have been an unhappy Hydro Owner, and told you about it.. But that is not the Case, everybody posted to you how great HYDRO is.. So don't lose sleep over it, and just get a Hydro.. TRUST US!! ....
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| Stanley
Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 21 Ste-Beatrix, Quebec, Canada
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1999-09-08 7771
Had my Kubota 8 plus years now. Use the hydro hard sometimes but never abused it. What I mean is that I don't go forward and then slam the reverse pedal, I wait til it comes to an almost stop then back up. I've used my B1550 (17 hp) to dig, push snow, pull downed trees, etc. and NEVER had a problem. I maintain the equipment as best as I can using synthetic oils. I'll probably hear crap about this but I'll never go back to a gear tractor. I agree with Jason. Good luck! ....
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| PaulB
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1999-09-09 7778
Pete - I could throw a rock from my house to Gates Road in Pompey - small world. One thing the salesman told me when I was comparing gear vs hydro was that if you do a lot of back and forth ( ie, almost anything except mowing ) you will sooner or later burn out the clutch on the gear drive model. Estimated repair cost ( from both the Kubota dealer and the Cub cadet dealer ) was $1,500. That is more than the cost difference to go with hydro to begin with.Lso, because the hydro acts an a very effective brake ( I never touch my brakes in daily use, only if I need a parking brake ) you should avoid brake rebuilds, which I have no idea if that is expensive or not. Just another reason to go hydro.PaulB ....
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| Brent
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1999-09-09 7779
It sounds like the salesman was trying to sell a hydro tractor. If you think about what he, using the clutch to go from forward to reverse. The is little difference between the clutch in a tractor and the clutch in an automobile. If what he said were true we would be rebuilding the clutches in our manual trans autos constantly. I have worked on a number of grey market tractors that are 15+ years old and a worn out clutch is rare. You will have one that is stuck occasionally from sitting for a long time, but not worn out. I had a JD 855 with a loader and as you know the 855 is a hydro tractor. I was very disapointed with the hydro/loader combination. When you had the pedal down and were working the loader controller it would have a tendancy to bog the engine down. I thought it was just my tractor until I talked to a salesman at a New Holland dealer and he told me he preferred a gear tractor to a hydro model when used with a loader. A shuttle shift or powershift in the case of some of the Yanmars is the way to go. You have the ease and convience of hydro with the power of a gear tractor. ....
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| mike
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1999-09-09 7784
I agree brent, I have never seen worn out clutchs on these compacts. The problems just does'nt appear very often like a car, etc. Like you said sticking clutches I have seen, mainly two stage type not allowing the pto to engage. But other than that clutches ARE extremely reliable and should give thousands of hours with proper maintenance. ....
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| Jason MacKenzie
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1999-09-09 7785
Pete,I wouldn't let the guy with the bad 855 comment scare you off from Hydro. Like I said, I was very very happy with my 855, and I have never had a loader bog down while using Hydro.. Mine worked perfectly.. and Loader had 100% power while using the Hydro.. So take that comment with a grain of salt.. I'm sure it is a very rare condition. And My New 4200, has plenty of Hydro Power, Great Machine, and the steering now has its own Hydro Pump, so no power gets robbed while steering and using Hydro ....
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| Mike S.
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1999-09-09 7786
While there appears to be a issue with a couple of tractors mentioned, my 955 worked great and my new 4400 HST is also great--it NEVER even slows the engine down when using the loader. In the last few weeks I have moved about 100 tons of materials with the loader and never once had the engine even slow down. A hydro trans. with a loader is much easier to use than a continual shifting of clutching and shifting gears (or even using a powershift and shuttleshift). With my 955, I could mow around objects quicker (lots of trees in my yard) and move much more snow more quickly than the grounds crews where I work could with larger gear drive tractors. I vote for hydro--my new 4400 is my fourth hydro. Long ago I made the mistake of first owning a Kubota hydro and then went to a Yanmar without a hyro and kept it for a year before going back to another hydro. I departed from the Yanmar only because I hated using it since I was spoiled by the previous tractor with its hydro trans. This is similar to a car--if I were to drive over long distances in the country and do little city driving, I would probably opt for a standard trans.; but living near Kansas City and being caught in stop and go traffic jams, I wouldn't consider the hassle of the continual clutching and declutching in such traffic. ....
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| Brent
Join Date: Posts: 1
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1999-09-09 7791
I am not saying that hydros are terrible and that there is something inherently wrong with all of them. I am just saying it dependson your application. In my oh so humble opinion hydro robs a tractor of horsepower. Think about this. If you go and shop for lawnmowers you will notice that if you look at a hydro model beside a gear/belt version that even though they are the same model, size, weight and cutting width, that the hydro will have a higher horsepower engine than the regular trans model. That is because it takes more horses(not a lot) to run that hydro trans. I noticed with my 855 that it had the same or nearly the same displacement as one of the X70 series tractors, but less hp. I loved my 855 when mowing or using a landscape box, but when it came to hard loader work and I had my foot to the pedal and was working that joystick to fill that bucket, it was not uncommon to kill the engine. I sold it and went back to a Hinomoto 2304(MF1030) with loader. Even though it was rated at only 1.1hp more the difference was remarkable. Now I have a Yanmar 2620D. After getting it I am amazed that John Deere never imported this version of Yanmar to sell under the green paint. You clutch it to select the range and then you select the gear you want by a lever on the dashboard and that lever doesn't require you to clutch. You can clutch it to ease into or out gear but the nice part is the convienence of it. I agree hydros are nice and maybe I was trying to get to much out of mine. I sell the grey markets and have people inquire about loaders alot. I have talked to people who have loaders on 16-17 hp tractors and talk about how much they do. It is all relative. What I consider alot may not be much to the next guy and vice versa. I didn't mean to start a hydro vs gear war, we all have our favorites. ....
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| MichaelSnyder
Join Date: Jun 1999 Posts: 0
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1999-09-09 7792
Time & time again I hear people talking about a hydro "bogging". 1 HP= the ability to raise 33,000lbs,1 foot in 1 minute. Regardless of how any motor transfers its available HP, as speed of the work increases, more torque is required to perform that task. Nothing new there. Unfortunately, people often forget or don't realize infinitely variable speed also means infinitely variable torque, based upon the "pump's" ability to create fluid volume and pressure...Simple Physics..Gears transfer an engines torque at the speed of theselected gear ratios & the RPMs in which the engine is turning. Hydro's operate a little different, in that they use a "fluid pump". Therefore fluid volume and flow is what translates into torque. The transfer losses from fluid energy to rotation of a shaft is one reason why hydro's are HP rated slightly less than an equal tractor with gears. All of that said, hydro's NEED to be run at higher RPMs to create sufficient fluid pressure. Anyone who irrigates crops knows that without pressure, your sprinkler heads are useless. Regardless of the motors HP, Pumps don't create pressure at idle. My advise to you: If your the kind of guy who just can't figure out why a hydro bogs, get a gear tranny. If you are able to realize a hydro needs fluid volume & flow (RPMs) to run the pump, and don't feel like getting the one arm & leg workout, get a hydro. ....
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| PaulB
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1999-09-09 7809
Brett - by back and forth I meant as when using a loader. I do believe that if you drove your gear shift car the way I drive a tractor when moving stuff with the front loader, you would burn clutches. My gear car goes into reverse twice a day : to get out of my driveway to get to work, and out of my parking space to get home. Yesterday I moved dirt with my tractor, and went from forward to reverse probably 200 times. Today, my left leg feels great. Paul ....
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| Alan L.
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1999-09-09 7820
My B2710 is the first tractor I have owned, and the only one I have ever used a loader with. It only comes with HST. I have done some digging and it seems the harder you push the pedal the more power it has. I have bogged the engine down a couple of times going after too big a bite in our heavy clay soil, and trying to use too little engine RPMs. The lower RPMs make the loader easier for me to control as an inexperienced user - higher RPMS move the bucket so fast I have a harder time controlling it. But I am sure a gear would have done the same, as I can't imagine the thing needing any more power than it has for the size of the tractor/loader. Most of the time my wheels spin and dig deep before the engine stalls.Whatever small amount of HP the HST is sucking up is worth it. Sort of like the AC on your truck. It uses some of your HP, but down here in Texas you sure wouldn't do without it! ....
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| turfman
Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 97 midwest
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1999-09-09 7821
There is a funny thing here. Does anybody here use a skidsteer? Those are and have been hydrostats since their inception. i have owned a few different hydros and gears and have to say HST all the way. one other thing, many of the green painted combines are HST and most hardrock mining equipment uses a hydro drive. Just my opinion. ....
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| Tom
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1999-09-10 7844
I have a Kubota L345DT with a loader gear drive it`s a pain constant shifting.Test drive both going back and forth a few times and decide what YOU likethats what matters. ....
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| Brent
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1999-09-10 7848
I did not mean to offend so many folks with my comment. Obviously I must have hit a nerve. Using a clutch to shift between gears, ie: 1-2-3-4-5 is no different than shifting 1st to reverse. I didn't necessarily mean people shift their cars into reverse 100 times a day. Someone started this whole thread with a question about HST reliability and I responded as someone with experience with both types. Through my part-time sales and general interest in tractors I have had over fifty different tractors to play with. I thought maybe I could add something but I guess I didn't. ....
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| Alan L.
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1999-09-10 7857
I'm certainly not offended to have someone share valuable experience. If we all agreed on everything this would be a pretty boring forum. ....
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| art
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1999-09-11 7864
Often when selling these cute little tractors there are several things that haven't been brought up in these conversations. I-H introduced hydro tractors in the 60's although many were sold to operators under the wrong pretense's there are still many out working in the field today turfman is definitly right on with that statement. Lets talk learning curves, which do you think you could become most proficient at the soonest, how about a son or neighbor, or wife, or grand child. Lets be real, on the most of these tractors sold to a home owner the average hours for mowing and driveway cleaning is approximatly 50 to 75 hours a year. That gives you roughly 1500 hours in 20 years. Whats the easiest to sell? Hydros because they are the easiest to use. Something else that hasen't been brought up is the fact that on hills as long as you are not on cruise you actually have a dead man petal and the tractor will stop. Being on both sides I've seen far more clutch jobs go thru my shops than I have hydro rebuilds. Another point is the hydro gives more freedom of speed with less effort. No shifting required. But it still is Your decision and preference after all it is your money. ....
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