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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-06          68159

I've been looking for Diamond pattern chains for my 15-19.5 rear and 25x8.5-14 front tires and can only find diamond rears for $262/pair.

In the double ladder design (twice as many cross chains as single ladder) I can find both front and rear ($78front/$196rear).

In the V-bar double ladder design I can only fronts ($96). I did find V-bar single ladder (half as many cross chains) for the rears for $154.

Several questions come to mind. Does it matter if I mix one type of chains on the rear and another type on the front? Does anyone know a source for diamond pattern chains in these sizes? Which of these types would perform best in mud? Do the V-bars do anything in mud, or only on ice?

Thanks for any and all help.


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Art White
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2003-11-06          68162

Ken from the looks of the tires on your tractor they have a bar of about two inch height at it's best, it is probably at about 17 degree or so maybe less. The spacing says that the chains will fit as a solid type tire. The thing you need to do is cause a severe high impact area to break into the lower level of the clay to beg a reach or grab a hold to pull your tractor along. Would you look at double rings as being common in most farm areas. When you might break a cross chain they would be available at your local equipment dealer. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-06          68169

Thanks, Art. So far I haven't been able to find double ring chains in these sizes but I'll keep looking. ....

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Art White
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2003-11-06          68173

Am I wrong on my description on your tires? Pics sometimes don't give you the best look. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-06          68174

You're probably right about the tires I have. I'm not sure about the angle but it's fairly shallow and 15-20 degrees is probably about right. The lugs are no more than two inches deep and probably a bit less. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2003-11-06          68175

Ken..... this is the old Alaskan talking. I don't think the v-bars are much good on slime: as you suspect they are made to grab ice. BUT.... they can't hurt either and if they are the best deal grab them.

I have a different view of chains than most. I see them as a version of the bar tire that Art describes but with a major difference.

I have looked carefully at your pics and two things stand out.

First, in some views the center of the tread is clogged with mud while the edges appear relatively clean.

Analysis: Despite its greater weight, your tractor cannot lay those puppies flat on the ground, even in mud.

Second, When you really got into deep kimchee, the entire tread was plastered smooth with mud. In effect, you were trying to get traction on mud, with mud.

Analysis: the capacity for the tires to clean themselves had been exceeded. I think there are two reasons for this.

1) the angles of the bars, depth of the tread and the INFLEXIBILITY of the tire all contribute to the problem.

And, 2)this is really icky mud that may well exceed the ability of any tire design to clean itself.

When you go to pop the cubes out of the ice tray, you flex the tray to break the grip of the ice on the walls of the tray.

Your R-4's will not do this because they are designed to run on skid loaders that are three times the weight of your tractor.

Back to chains. Here you have a device that is inherently flexible, even on R-4 tires. It will dump its load of mud/snow as it is pressured to pick up another load.

What matters is breaking the mud clogging sections into reasonably small segments that will fall away under the pressure of a new load, but they have to have a place to go.

That said, I think the diamond pattern would be ok, but a standard set of chains might be even more effective if you linked the center of each chain to the next, creating an "H" pattern.

This would effectively break the clog of mud into easily digestible segments, sort of like the way a good rain tire prevents hydroplaning by pumping the fluid out to the sides and away from the tire.

My two bits. Mark.
....

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harvey
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2003-11-07          68179

You can get your regular old ladder chains and go after market and add in your other cross chains. Double rings every other one on the rears and keep fronts regular. You will find on the front if you get to long a cross link the side chain or if they get cockeyed they will rub on the tie rod and tear the boot Not a problem if you keep it greased.

Mark pretty much nails my view IRON IS IRON they do not have to be beautiful and the more they can be allowed to squirm around on the tires the better. Mine the cross links are welded together for the right fit. Each rear chain on my custom "cobs" from many different sources (mostly old heavy truck chains) and weigh over 100# each.

Usually I chain up before I need them but now and then I do an AH-S---! and stick it. 90% of time I can get out by curling the bucket forward/back with it stuck in the ground. If I have to I'll just put the front chains on because I can get the front up and clear with the bucket, get out and finish resr of chains on hard ground if I need to continue working.

I probably have over a 1000# of various cross and side chains in various styles. I'll get them from the town barn trading coffee and donuts for their old stuff they can not use. My other source is auctions for old double rings, but even now they are pricey for worn out chains.

I have way more than I'll ever use in this life do ya want some? ....

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Art White
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2003-11-07          68200

Ken the prices are about what you had on your post. I feel you will have to keep them tight for fear of fender damage but I think that you would be best with them. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-07          68215

Mark, that was a very cogent analysis of the problem and your Alaskan wisdom is very apparent. The lack of flexibility is a big reason to dislike R4s.

Harvey, at this point I wouldn't know how to modify or fabricate a set of chains that aren't already sized correctly. I have a feeling that in a year or so I'll be an old chain pro.

Do I need a welder to add cross links? Or is there some sort of tool made for that purpose? Or do I just get a hammer and vice and make it work?
....

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DRankin
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2003-11-07          68217

The extra cross links are just bent into place on the side chains. ....

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Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2003-11-07          68221

Mark..I just put my chains on and used bungee cords to take out any slack. I then pushed up against a tree and spun the tires to see if they'd slip on the tires and they didn't. It took awhile to get them adjusted just right. Anyway, they dug a hole in the ground in short order.

One question that has been brought up in the past..bar tires on ice. I really don't want to spend the $$$ for turfs. My little Craftsman 2wd handled the 42" blower with no trouble using turfs and chains. EXCEPT after a freezing rain or the old freeze/thaw cycles. Considering having 4wd and a whole bunch more weight, I figure the bars & chains should pass muster. I have an 8% grade on the driveway.

I did drop the rear pressure to 11psi from the factory recommended 18psi and it definitely improve ride and tread contact...and lowered the overall height by almost an inch. That really helped in giving me extra room to clear the cab going through the garage door...3/4" to spare!

Any comments or experience with bars and ice?? ....

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Wildman1
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2003-11-07          68222

I don't think ice or snow will be an issue. I'm sooo ready for winter...blower, cab, sander, chains...that it'll just rain all winter. "They" know..don't "they"? ....

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Art White
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2003-11-07          68223

Wildman you did just fine with your outfit and Ken you can wot=rk on chains without any trouble. ....

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kwschumm
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 5764 NW Oregon
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2003-11-07          68231

Art, you were asking about the specifications on my R4 tires. They are Titan Trac Loader 6 p.r. tires with a shallow tread depth of 25/32". I found it interesting that on this size the rear tire designed rim width was 11.75", but the rims JD installs are 13" - slightly wider. I wonder if this was an attempt to make the tread footprint sit a little flatter. I couldn't find specs on the angle of the tread, but the angled portion of the R4 lugs appears to be around 35 degrees. ....

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harvey
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2003-11-08          68251

Ken there are a ton of options to repair and build chains. Hammer, BIG cold chisel, block of metal to pound on floor on.

I mentioned welding cross links because I'm to cheap to buy repair links and I have lots of the chian stuff.

Art you are correct about the fenders. But I still leave them very loose and do not travel at a speed that chains have momentum to leave the tire and hit fender.

Here is a site that has a Kazillion styles and things. Not sure why I kept the link except for window shopping and reality check.

Chains are not hard but you will need some patience.

If you want I drag mine out a take a couple of pics for you if you promise not to enter them in the how ugly can you build them contest...I'll get some spare parts in there also so you can see how stuff works.

The most important thing to remember these do not have to go down the road at highway speeds with the weight of a snow plow on them. Old throwaways work fine. ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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Art White
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2003-11-08          68257

Ken, that's a good site that Harvey found, I think you will like the double rings best for chains. I don't think that you want to go for a good set of ag tires but they would work well in the dirt that you have. ....

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DRankin
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2003-11-08          68261

Wildman: sounds like you have things nailed down pretty good. The "bar-turfs" you have are much kinder to chains than a true R-1 tire.

I forgot, is your driveway is gravel or asphalt?

Studded bar-turfs might be an interesting option too. I certainly remember a lot of days up there when the only safe mode of transportation was a set of ice skates going downhill. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-08          68266

Harvey, thanks a bunch for the link and the offer. I probably won't need any pics since there are a lot of pics there and it sounds like there aren't any real tricks to installing and using chains. I suppose the biggest issues are keeping them tight and making sure their are no sharp points in contact with the rubber. I've got hammers, cold chisels, big bolt cutters, and big pliers so I can probably do any repairs necessary. One of these days I'll buy a welder and learn welding.

Art, I really liked the looks of the double ring chains but it seems that nobody makes them in 15-19.5 or 25x8.5-14 sizes. H-pattern chains seem to be the ones that are available. ....

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Art White
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2003-11-08          68267

Ken, they can be made very easily by just buying a bigger set and cutting them down. It will give you additional cross chains just in case you find a need. I can find them in the listing for you, might cost more to. ....

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Wildman1
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2003-11-08          68275

Mark..the drive is asphalt. Last winter after freezing rain I started down the drive merrily blowing along when the tractor started sliding. 2 wheel brakes only (Craftsman). I figured I'd slide into the street and get whacked by a passing car. I turned off the auger and shortly thereafter built a berm of snow up in front of the blower which stopped me.

With the Worksaver 3ph broadcast spreader I'll just back down the drive after icing conditions and spread winter aggregate. Probably won't even need chains using that stuff. ....

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harvey
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2003-11-08          68278

Ken as I mentioned B-4 you would not be able to use double ring on front and you have to be real careful about how long your cross chain is because if they are to long they will rub your tie rod end.

I had a set on the rears one time with regular truck ladder chains and added the double ring cross chains in the every other position. They worked on ice and packed snow but regular truck chains with extra cross chains work better.

I have always been a fan of the double ring having grown up with them. But I think you will be fine with regular heavy truck chains, for all round work. Alought in mud double rings would be better.

Came back to edit: those double link v bars for $96 a pair look pruty good and from there you can remove and add double rings etc. Biggest thing is having a starting set to work with. You can measure from them. The pics on the site show them on r4s.

Your fronts you will have to measure circumfrence and tread width and get a set that fits a pick up. You will probably have to cut them to lenght.

GOOD LUCK! ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-08          68281

Thanks for the reminder harvey. I forgot about the issues with double rings on the fronts. Ice and snow really haven't been a concern here (so far) but mud is a problem 6-7 months out of the year.

There's a new wrinkle now. I stopped by the dealer this morning and was talking to them about my unhappiness with the R4 traction. They said they would be willing to exchange them with a set of R1s, but they have to check with the manager on monday to see about any costs involved. I'm not sure if the R1s will solve my problems but chains can be added to those, too, if needed. ....

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Art White
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2003-11-08          68283

Ken an R-1 has a bar half as wide and two times as tall! That gives you a higher lbs per square inch to dig in with and a deeper lug to grab with! You might be shocked. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-08          68287

Thanks Art, that gives me a little more confidence. I'm hoping they will make the swap and that the R1s do what I need. From my research here they are not my utopian tire - JD uses Titan Hi-Traction lug R1s which might offer good traction and self cleaning ability, but they are 6-ply bias construction so they will likely be stiff and inflexible. Ideally I'd like radials, but if the price is right it's worth a try. If the tires they are swapping aren't already loaded I'll go with unloaded tires and wheel weights/rear ballast. Beggars can't be choosers. ....

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harvey
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2004-01-01          72823

I was editing photos and forgot I had one with tractor all chained up. Photo # 9

These were built for the R-1s on my old Ford and I did have to ad a few links to each cross link on the rears. They are old throway truck chains with pieces of grader chain and what ever else was handy. Each chain on the rear is well over 100#. I did have some old double rings thrown in on old set but there would have been clearance issues on this tractor.

The fronts are off 9.50X16.5 tires and the extra cross chains were added. All cross chains on front are v-bar for ice. These are a little long and the side chain rubs the tie rod end occasionally. But I keep it greased and push in new more than I really need to. Maybe this year since its all chained up and no where to blow I'll cut the cross links to shorten. ....

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