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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 61 NY
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2003-12-18          71637

does any body know if they make a rear hydraulic snowblower. might be my answer because I do not have live pto, also my sherman low range slows down my pto, so I was thinking about running off my loader,if a hydraulic unit is made and any good thanks ps pto hp is 44

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harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY
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2003-12-18          71640

You would never get flow enought from your loader hyd to run a blower. A pto pump big enough to run a blower would give you the same problem when you clutch. You would have to mount your pump up front and run from crank.

I had a small Ford and a blower w/o live pto and used it for years w/o a problem. When I came to the end of a run I'd slide the gear shift to neutral let blower clear clutch shift and continue on.

Isn't your tractor capiable of a 2 stage clutch? ....

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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 61 NY
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2003-12-18          71643

no 2 stage clutch 1962 ford 4000 industral but I do have crank shaft pump where loader is my oil tank ....

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Art White
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2003-12-18          71657


Harveys right on! You don't have enough hydraulics to run but maybe 3' of blower. ....

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harvey
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2003-12-19          71671

If you have an aux pump already check with snowblower vendor for minimum required flows, GPM, check your pump flows to see if you have it.

If I was gonna mount it I'd put it on the front and weigh the back end down HEAVY. ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-19          71680

I'm guessing that the main problem is that the blower doesn't throw snow far enough in low range and the tractor goes too fast in reverse in everything but low range.

I imagine that a hydraulic blower would be pretty expensive. Maybe the existing blower gearing could be changed to get the blower up to speed in low range. Who knows, maybe different gear sets are available for the existing gearbox? If that idea worked then the blower could only be operated in low range and there might be a safety issue, but it might be cheaper than hydraulics. ....

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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2003-12-19          71722

hi tom I do not have a blower yet need one real soon . I though about a hydraulic blower and run it off my loader the pump puts out about 20 gpm so I do not know if that is enough.my problem is that my 1962 ford 4000 has a sherman tranny in front of my regular tranny which slows down my pto from 540 in direct drive to about I guess 425 in low range.the tractor does not have 2 stage clutch so I think I might be stuck.I would need a 6 foot blower but I do not know if they come in different rpms that would sure help if you or any body else knows about these different blowers that might work please let me know thanks kurt ....

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Art White
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2003-12-19          71723

Twenty gallons per minute, twenty horsepower, just enough to get by running a 60" blower at it's very maximum. This leaves nothing for loader controls for adjustment of height. ....

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kully560
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Posts: 61 NY
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2003-12-19          71726

hi art how are you, not 20 hp but 44 pto, gpm maxs at pto speed, crank shaft pump. I guess what I am trying to do is avoid new tractor at least for now. trying to make something work at least for this winter. or maybe if they do make a high rpm blower that will work for me when I am in low range need 6 foot blower, do you know of any art thanks kurt ....

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TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-19          71730

I think what Art is saying is that a 20-gpm hydraulic motor is roughly equivalent to a 20hp pto. There are some formulas that give exact results, but 1 gmp is close to 1 hp.

So, you might think of the pto hp requirements for various width blowers. I know my 5' blower can lug the engine in deep snow at pretty slow ground speeds with 24 pto hp. 20 hp seems pretty marginal for 5' blowers but would be fairly limited for most 6' blowers. Running the 3ph would demand additional flow if it runs from the same pump.

The only blowers I'm aware of that are geared for speeds other than 540 are for higher speeds and the rotation may be backwards, so not much help there. Quite a few large regional fabricators make blowers and most use OEM gearboxes. I think there'd be a chance that a fabricator could find an appropriate gearbox and put it in one of their blowers. There might be some help there and maybe a dealer would know of a fabricator in your area. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-20          71753

Just thought I'd throw in some more detail about hydraulic power. The formula is HP = (PSI x GPM)/1714. That means for working pressures of 1714 lbs, HP = GMP (assuming no losses).

To figure how much power it's possible to get out of a hydraulic motor, you'd need to know the max relief pressure suitable for the motor and also the pump's volumetric efficiency. Volumetric efficiency is important because pumps have less than their rated flows at higher pressures. Heat is a loss that's not in these formulas and motors do heat when they're run at higher pressures.

I imagine that some combination of pump and motor could produce significantly higher than 20hp from a 20 gmp rated pump, but 1 gpm = 1 hp seems like a pretty good rule of thumb and getting significantly more than 20hp likely means using some pretty expensive components. ....

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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 61 NY
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2003-12-20          71759

thanks for your help tom I guess I will be looking for a pto blower.I am not worried about live pto to much because I can raised up the 3 point hitch at end of run to clear out blower. but do need high rpm and manufactures do not list fan speeds so I will have to call them direct thanks for you help kurt ....

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Art White
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2003-12-20          71802






Kurt, sorry for not getting back sooner but blowers in this area are scarce or at least in our inventory. Tom has guided you well in finding info for your answers. I would suggest a three point hitch as it is manageable to a degree. Best wishes!







....

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TomG
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Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2003-12-21          71821

I'm starting to wonder if using a 540-rpm blower but turning up the engine rpm might be a solution. I think dividing the pto rpm by 540 gives how much engine rpm has to be increased for each 1 rpm of pto speed. I'm not sure how feasible the idea is since older diesels tended to have narrower power bands than newer engines. Still, the rpm can be turned up on most engines. There are some downsides to doing this and a tech who knows the engine could say if it's a good idea. ....

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harvey
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2003-12-21          71825

A good blower does not have to run at 540 rpm. The only time I run mine at that speed is when I am on long straights or very heavy snow and then its just because of the additional power.

Your tractor will be running at rated rpm and blower might be runnig at a little less than rated speed but it will do a good job especially if you get one with the good fan.

A 24" fan with 4 blades moves a lot of snow at lower rpms.

I idle back near houses and cars to 1500 rpm and am still moving snow 15-20 feet depending on snow type.

Also as I said earlier one of your transmissinos should slide into neutral very easy if the tractor is not pushing up a grade. I'd slide gear into neutral with out clutching and let the blower clear. Idle back a little clutch shift and continue. ....

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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 61 NY
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2003-12-21          71829

thanks for everybody help tom my motor is gas so I can turn up rpms but in low range the tractor will go faster. I will try what harvey suggests ,24 in fan with 4 blades and hydro shout.if I do not need to run at 1500 rpm to run blower425pto I will try slower to see if it works. I will look for a real good blower,an try it this year if it does not work well I will be looking for new tractor before next winter. can anybody suggest a good blower with 24 in fan and 4 blades. best of holidays to everybody kurt ....

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harvey
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2003-12-21          71831

Kully560 what part of NY are you in? If you are close enought you can take mine and use it for a week or so to play.

My e-mail is posted in profile. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-21          71832

I think Harvey's suggestion sounds like a solution. My blower doesn't work as well as Harvey's at lower speeds but then it's a fairly inexpensive blower. Some manufacturers spec their fan rpm or tip speeds. I'd look for one with a large fan and high rpm fan. 43 pto hp should run most 6' blowers just fine.

Power bands of older gas engines also were narrower and governors work much the same but I keep forgetting that the PTO speed and ground speed aren't independent on this tractor. The rpm trick might still be useful if running one at lower speeds doesn't throw snow far enough. ....

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kully560
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2003-12-21          71837

thanks for the offer harvey but I am not sure where you are I am located 30 miles north of lake george. I think I will talk to my local dealer to see if he has one I can use for a day or to.also what brand blower to you use tom said yours works better then his. ....

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harvey
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2003-12-21          71843

You are a little north of me. I'm south west of Syracuse near Ithaca. I do get you up your way to Lake placid usually 8-10 times a winter. But do not see any trips there this year.

I have a Pronovost P-68. 68". 24" fan 9" deep it loves most anytype of snow the harder, icer, packer the better. I do not know if it works any better than Toms or not. BUT it is way above my old cheapy one. That as I recall had a 18"x6" fan with 3 blades.

Pronovost makes 3 different levels of blowers. Mine is above the Puma which is much lighter.

Here's the web site link for Pronovost.

You may want to get ahold of Art me thinks he deals in them also and it might be worth a trip to Sangerfield to torment him... ....


Link:   

Click Here


 
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TomG
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2003-12-22          71899

I think Harvey's has to work much better than mine. Mine doesn't do much at 1500 engine rpm and everything I heard about Pronovost's suggests the performances aren't comparable. There are a few other high-end blowers mentioned sometimes.

Sure would be good to see a demonstration and I'm thinking that a demo might be simulated. If the pto does run at 435, that is 79% of rated speed. Reducing engine pto rpm to 79% on another tractor might simulate how it would perform. That would be 1889 for a pto rpm of 2400. If the 425 speed is accurate it seems like the performance would be better than Harvey's experience at 1500. At least I think my reasoning here is sound.

For comparing blowers, I think that tip speed is the most important factor in how far snow is thrown. I'd keep in mind that a small diameter fan has to have higher rpm to achieve the same tip speed. Seems like there's a decent chance the idea would work pretty well, although the chute may tend to clog more often if run at lower speeds. Guess there'd be some potential for fine-tuning if necessary. ....

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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 61 NY
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2003-12-22          71953

I was looking into the farmking made by allied checking price it was $1995 with hyd.shout.(yc 7420 which is 74 in) but that was with 3 blade fan. I can order the 4 blade fan but do not know how much. I need to locate a pronavost dealer for price also.I do have to keep in mind thatI have low range but still not creeper gear. I think the tractor will probably travel in reverse 1 to 2mph max.do not know if that is to fast but you are correct tom in saying a demo at the dealer at about 70 80 percent of pto will tell me everthing thanks ....

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harvey
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2003-12-22          71954

Kully as Tom mentioned size matters. If you can swing the blower with a 24" fan you are gonna be happy.

Mine new would be $3500+ hyd chute and rotation. I converted the chute to a turn buckle.

I got mine used and am very pleased with it. It has a few small things I still need to fix before I completely sandblast and repaint.

I'll say it again talk to Art and see if it's worth your drive down there.

Watch the swap sheets. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-23          71983

I got a little long here so I'll comment about operating speeds first. My 1710 is smaller and more nimble than yours and I have 4 reverses. The lowest gives .9 mph, which I use for very deep snows and when I have to maneuver next to buildings etc. The next reverse gives 2-mph and that's generally what I use. The 3rd is just over 4 mph and I'm not willing to concentrate on steering enough to use it most times.

I did a little nosing around in both the Pronovost and Farm King sites, and got a few surprises. The 6' models on both sites I looked at have 24" fans and 540 fan rpm. There were some models I didn't look at. At least one offered 3 or 4 blade options and one or both offered several chute design options. Each offered an option for reducing 1000 rpm input to 540. If fan tip speed is the main factor in throwing distance, it seems like performances may be similar. There may be other factors like chute height and taper.

I think I'd pitch the problem to several manufacturers (maybe through a dealer) and see what ideas come back. I'm guessing that the reducer option would offer the greatest potential for speeding a blower up if necessary. There may be no ratio changes at all in many blower boxes. However, different gear sets likely are available for the reducers, shafts or gears might be swapped or one just might be turned around to turn it in an over-drive. ....

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kully560
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2003-12-23          72036

thanks for your help tom I will be looking into that reducer option just after holidays I will let you know how I made out.happy holidays to you and everbody on web. ....

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Art White
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2003-12-23          72048

Ron, I've played with both, even the lower grade Puma will out blow the best of the Allied/Buelher in the Central NY area. Harveys is the better built unit and as far as I know one of the best built. The only reason I say that is I haven't seen any comparable unit yet to equal them. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-24          72073

Good to hear your experience Art! That's consistent with everything I've heard but I have no experience except my own 5' Meteor, which I imagine is similar to Farm King. I was surprised to find that both Pronovost and Farm King had the same fan size and speed. It's a bit of a mystery where the extra performance comes from, but I believe the performance stories. I know that my 5' Meteor with a smaller fan doesn't do much below 2000 rpm and it's much more prone to clogging.

I think performance at slower rpm's is important. From the ground speeds mentioned I'd guess it would be most comfortable to operate with the Sherman in under-drive most of the time. I guess it'd remain to be seen the depth of snows that can be worked in one pass even with the Sherman in use. A slower blower speed also means a slower auger. In snows around 3' my blower won't clear snow fast enough even at my lowest reverse and the blower turns into a plow. I'm not sure if the auger or the fan is the limiting factor but then I know my blower isn't on the high end of performance. ....

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Art White
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2003-12-24          72074

Tom, if you look at the paddles on the blower the Provenost are a cup style instead of flat metal with a bent lip to hold the snow. That style was used on the allied is or was the normal way of building them 20 to thirty years ago and more. It is cheaper to build of coarse and the process takes less time then what provenost uses so it goes with out saying that given the two are the same price the one is a better value. Specs often seem to be identical but when you get into the workings from one model to the next that is where you will often see the efficency of one design over the other. I did leave it open to the fact I've not seen anything blow like the high end provenost like what Harvey has but there maybe something out there I've just not had the oppertunity to see it in action for a like comparable. ....

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TomG
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2003-12-24          72078

Ah ha-mystery solved, and thanks! The fan blades on mine sure enough are flat with the ends bent up. Doesn't take much imagination to see that cupped ones would throw snow a lot further It'd take more HP too which I don't have a lot to spare with my 5' and 24 pto hp. The recommended HP range for the Pronovosts may run higher. ....

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