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F-250 6 0 Turbo Diesel

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DougKfromPA
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2003-09-03          63143

I was looking for feedback on the F-250 Turbo Diesel extendedcab shortbed. Does anyone here have anything positive or negative to say about them? What kind of mileage do you get? Any reliability problems? I have never had a diesel truck, the only diesel experience I have is with my Kubota. Thanks for your input, DougK in PA

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Chief
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2003-09-03          63148

Doug,

I am a Cummins Dodge guy and anything I would say about the Ford Powerstrokes mights let's say be taken as a bit bias'd. I LOVE the crewcab and interiors of the Ford trucks. The fit and finish looks to be as good as any of the manufacturers. The 6.0 Powerstroke is where this truck falls on its face and I would caution you NOT to buy one right now. If you are set on a Ford Powerstrok, wait and buy next years model. They are having huge numbers of problems with this engine and very loyal Ford truck customers are VERY upset about it. In fact, Ford has resorted to the unheard of and radical solution of buying back trucks from unhappy customers in order to save their reputation. Don't take my word for it......... read about it below.

If the Cummins engine and NV5600 transmission was an option on the Ford F-250/350; I would be driving a crewcab Ford right now. ....


Link:   6.0 Powerstroke Engine Article

 
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Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002
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2003-09-03          63150

Now if we could just get the engine options the big boys have we would all be happy. Nothing like a Ford Cat or a Dodge Perkins.
The IH has been a good engine over the years and the trouble is recent and probably short lived as Chief states. I ran both side by side and would have made the same choice as Chief if the Ford had the Cummins. As it is I made the same choice as Chief. Mine is just a little bigger. ....

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plots1
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2003-09-03          63164

I went with the DURAMAX,and boy am I very happy!!!!!!!!!!!! ....

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F350Lawman
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2003-09-03          63167

Obviously I am a Powerstroke guy... but the "growing pains" with the new engine are a big issue. It may only be a small number of trucks but it's still too high. many of the problems are things that cna be fixed RELATIVELY easily, reflash problems, leaking seal, bad pedal, rolling idles, etc but must drive you nuts on a 45,000 truck when there's no quick fix.

I hope the 04's have it worked out. I think it still can be the best combination on the market. The truck is great all around and the motors do have plenty of power but the bugs are still inexcusable. It is a shame because several towing/performance reviews have shown that this new tranny/motor combo is the top performer power-wise on the market.

Ford isn't the first manufacturer to have problems with a first year model and rebound to have a very succesful model in the end. I guess we'll see how it shakes out.

My buddy is set on an 04, since they are hitting the showroom floors as we speak we will soon know if the problems have been addressed. I think you shouldn't rule out the Ford just wait a few weeks and the online forums will let you know if strides have been made towards fixing the bugs. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2003-09-04          63197

I bought one recently for my right-hand man as a thank you for his performance last year.

It was one that had the bad injection sensor, before it even acted up the dealer phoned him and said to bring it in for a swap-out. They did a free oil change and lube while it was there in way of an apology for the inconvenience. They said it didn't need to be re-flashed since it was produced after the change-up in software had been made. Other than that no problems so far.

Does he like it, you couldn't slap the smile of his face, I think he slept in it for the first few nights...then he put a garage door in the side of his bedroom.

Best of luck. ....

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Chief
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2003-09-04          63201

Glad to hear that hopefully Ford is working out the growing pains and issues. How the Ford dealer handled your friend is just how is should be! Wish all dealers were like that.

Murf, anytime you would like to buy one of those for me; please feel free to do so...... you wouldn't be able to slap the smile off of my face either! LOL! ;-) Bedroom would definitely have a garage door on it as you say! That was one heck of a kind act for your employee. ....

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Murf
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2003-09-04          63209

Chief, I wouldn't want to spoil you, it might go to your head and we all love you just the way you are !!! ROFLMAO

I firmly believe that people should be compensated in proportion to their value to me, last year he proved invaluable, it was the least I could do. He was not the only one heavily bonused, if not for them I wouldn't have had a company to come home from the hospital to. There was NO hesitation on their part, they just pitched in and ran with it, so much so that they actually achieved a 10% increase in profits.

This winter, with my doctors & good lady's permission I might add, the entire senior staff is going to the Bahamas for two weeks for a 'Management Retreat' nudge, nudge, wink, wink ;->

Best of luck. ....

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Peters
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2003-09-04          63219

Murf;
Having worked in this country for 12 years I can honestly state that your views and actions are positively unAmerican.
But then I have taken a lot of heat for my views and actions regarding employees over the years. ....

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Murf
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2003-09-04          63222

I inherited my management views & methods from the same place most of my other opinions were formed, our family & the farm they built up and still run. I'm the ninth generation on the same land. We may not be using the most widely accepted methods, but our 'family' includes many people who are not 'blood' relatives, but have worked for us a long time, including several who are multi-generation employees. Many of the farms which we own but only share-crop are managed by former employees or relatives of employees.

We have never been 'followers', always 'leaders', during the mid 1800's our family was proudly the northern end of the underground railway. To this day there is a community of people nearby who are the decendants of former 'runaway' slaves who settled in the area and built a church & school.

We have always believed people should share in the prosperity they create. IMHO, it is the greatest single motivator there is, someone who feels as though the money they are making is at least party theirs will work harder to earn it, and treat the customer with more care and attention.

Bankrupt companies taken over by management-led employee buyouts by and large have a much higher success rate than any other single group.

Best of luck. ....

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Peters
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2003-09-04          63226

Murf;
Our family was originally from Canton Ont. and second cousins still farm there, basicly much the same stock.
I am just commenting that having worked in corporate America for a long time that there are more Enron types than the view that you and I espouse to. ....

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Murf
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2003-09-05          63249

Unfortunately I have to agree with you on that one. A few years back I had it stuck right in my nose. I had my uncle who is an MD in central CA get me in touch with a farm labour placement service in the hopes of bringing up some Mexican farm labourers, as well as a few for the contracting business if it could be done legally.

When these Mexicans found out that we would feed them, give them a free place to live, AND pay them they almost stampeded the bus terminal. After the first ones arrived they were amazed at the conditions up here, and also that they got Sundays off and we provided a van they could use to go to church if they desired.

At the end of the season we made an offer to two of them to sponsor them if they wanted to emigrate to Canada permanently and we would loan them money to bring their families up too. The one was so awestruck all he do was cry, the other was so excited he forgot how to speak English and I thought he was going to give himself brain damage he was nodding his head so hard and he nearly shook my Dad's hand right off.

All we can do is try to improve our little peice of the planet.

Best of luck. ....

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Peters
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2003-09-05          63272

I agree Murf, but sometimes it is like pushing a rope here. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-09-07          63342

I have heard the same old poo poo non sense about the Ford as the Duramax. Its amazeing to hear some tell tell it. you might think the Duramax or the Ford were the worst vehicles ever because some peon reporter that didnt know a dipstick from a tail gate writes some little obscure poof that makes the paper. Big deal. This is what I can say about the Duramax after actually owning one, I have never had a vehicle this good. I have talked to literally hundreds of other owners and have yet to actually hear a complaint from some one that actually ownes one. The same is true for the Ford. What vehicle is perfect on every single truck that rolls off the line ? None. A engine alone does not make a truck. Thats my pennys worth. The only thing I want to know is MURF !!! Am I on the Sr Staff ???? Lol Dave ....

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cutter
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2003-09-08          63347

Doc,

Did you receive that picture I sent you? ....

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Murf
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2003-09-08          63357

Actually I was thinking that maybe we should organize the first annual Tractor Point Members Conference, strictly, of course, for purposes of discussing ways to improve the board, tips on use & maintenace of our equipment, etc.

Of course if the agenda included a little about cigars, wine, food, fishing, boating in general, and maybe a little sightseeing & duty-free shopping for the ladies...

Just in the interest of advancing our knowledge, etc., of course....

Think the ladies would buy it?????

Best of luck. ....

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Misenplace
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2003-09-08          63370

Murf, My wife is already sold ! I dont have to twist her arm too hard to head to Nassau. She loves to stay at The Royal Towers in The Atlantis. The problem for me is she smokes my cigars and drinks my wine which is ok, but she does all the duty free and straw market stuff as well. LOl. Of course she'll be sold a LOT faster if youre buyin or theres a tax write off involved. :) Dave ....

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cutter
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2004-12-07          101799

I came across this thread doing research on a new truck. I have been sorry I did not purchase a diesel in 2002 and am looking at both Ford and Dodge 2005 units for towing. I like the Ford ergonomics but the Dodge comes with more equipment and the Cummings. I am a bit leary of the Ford after reading about the engine and transmission problems on various posts. Any insight, most of this was posted some time ago?

On another note, my philosophy in managing people is that the more you do to give them "ownership" the better they perform. That will not hold true with all people, some are simply bad apples and you need to get rid of them. An exemplary work ethic is hard to come by these days so if you find a few that have that to offer, reward them and you will not be sorry. ....

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Longhair
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2004-12-09          101995

The problem with 6.0were fixed by 2004.25.Check the specs 05 Ford has better brakes/frame etc.Plus the integrated trailer brakes makes it even sweeter. ....

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AV8R
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-12-09          102011

I took this quote from another board I belong to:

"Well after reading that last JD Powers 2004 Vehicle Dependability Study, I'd have to say Ford makes a good truck, but the 6.0 has been a dismal failure the likes of which there is simply no excuse for in this day and age. I certainly wouldn't buy into the contention that "all the bugs are fixed in '05" mantra without at least a couple of years to clear thier severly damaged reputation.

Cummins = 41% LESS problems than the equivalent gas powered truck

6.0 PSD = 430% MORE problems than the equivalent gas powered truck

Those numbers are obscene!"

I looked up the JD Powers Study, interesting reading. You couldn't give me a 6.0 Power Stroke. Interesting how it's going to be replaced in '07 already.

Buy the Dodge and get your own brake controller. ....


Link:   JD Powers

 
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cutter
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2004-12-09          102013

Thank you very much! ....

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Longhair
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2004-12-10          102021

Ford sells more diesels than Dodge and Chevy combined.The more you sell the morechances people are going to have trouble.J.D.Powers is also the same company that took a payoff to rate Mazda better.Most of J.D. rating is done in the first 90days.It's nice to buy American when you can.THe brake controller is just not any brake controller it's tied in with the ABS ....

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cutter
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2004-12-10          102025

I do like that feature! For future plans I will need a controller and currently I have an aftermarket "under dash" model. ....

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AV8R
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2004-12-10          102037

They sell more trucks because of their extremely cheap fleet sales. All the bells and whistles in the world do not make up for the problems they had and still have with the 6.0 PS. Read any of the trade journals and you will see that the 6.0 was a decent motor until Ford engineering got involved. They are already screwing up the replacement motor that IH was developing.

The link below kind of sums up my reasons. ....


Link:   1 reason why I love my Cummins

 
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Murf
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2004-12-10          102045

I must be the luckiest guy in the world, other than just because of my missus.

I've got a fleet of Ford's, all with the 6.0 PSD.

I had ONE, problem with a first year model, it was fixed quickly and without hassle under warranty, since then they have been problem-free.

Guess I should buy some lottery tickets.

Best of luck. ....

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AV8R
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2004-12-10          102046

Are Canadian trucks equipped differently? (Emissions etc.) Here (US spec'ed) there are major turbo, injector, injector pump and tranny problems to name a few.

I liked the new HD Fords and was looking into replacing my '94 Cummins with one, but after researching I decided to keep what I have. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-12-10          102047

Have any of you Dodge guys out there seen the new Dodge PowerWagon? It comes with a totally different independent suspension and standard with 4.56 gears. It is intended for more or less off-road users. ....

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Murf
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2004-12-10          102048

Our trucks are all built at the KTP in Louisville, as far as I know the only differences are in labelling (metric) and so on.

There were some early injection problems, that was the one problem I did have with the one, I don't know what they did to it other than it was fast & free, LOL.

The tranny is not an issue to us since all our trucks are 6 speed manuals.

I'm not sure what turbo problems they could be having. I do know of two trucks, both belonging to the same stupid tow truck owner, that had both major injection & turbo problems.

However, once they realized he was running regular cheap 10W-30 oil in them they were able to solve the problem, and terminate his warranty....

Best of luck. ....

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Longhair
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2004-12-10          102049

There must be reason they are #1 fleet diesel.Because they're are better.A Dodge is cheaper so it's not because of price.If Cummins Dodge is so great then why aren't they selling cab/chassis set up.You make it sound like Dodge has no troubles Give me a break.Stand on an Interstate and count how many of each brand is towing trailers and Ford will exceed but I guess that means nothing. ....

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cutter
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2004-12-10          102051

I have looked at them. Sharp truck but they are expensive for the average guy. Much of the equipment you would never use unless you did rock crawling. OUCH! ....

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yooperpete
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2004-12-10          102054

My cousins the farmers have gone back and forth between Ford and Chevy trucks. They had a Dodge back in the late 80's and didn't like it. They usually have atleast 4 trucks. The last 2 have been Chevies with Duromax. They were unhappy about the '99 and '00 250's and 350's. They kept ripping out front ends and going through trannys. They now have one 02 and 03 Super-Duty and one 03 and 04 Duromax. They always use automatic transmissions for ease of pulling out boats at the docks and creature comfort.

The Duromaxes are quieter and haven't had any problems. I think the one brother uses his Ford harder than the other with Chevy. The dad is semi-retired and drives the other Chevy. The oldest truck usually hauls fuel, wrenches ,etc. and is the common work vehicle.

The latest Super-Duties have been good also. One of the cousins has the Ford with 6.0 and complains about fuel economy. He says the mileage isn't good when driving North on I-75 (gradual uphill grade all the way) toward Grayling when going 80-85 mph pulling a fourplace snowmobile trailer. When heading West on M-72 toward Traverse on the roller-coaster hills it has plenty of power to pass and maintain speed at 65-70 mph.

The Ford easily handles the 2 to 2 1/2 ton payload of fertilizer and seed when driving through plowed fields getting to the recently tilled fields for filling the planter. It squats a little though. Srings on the Ford seem stiffer to maintain profile under load.

It also handles the 15,000 GVW trailer well. They say they use the semi and low-boy trailer for hauling the big stuff.

Other than the mileage complaint on the Ford, he finds the seats a little hard. I have an '02 F250 with Triton V-8 and am very happy with it except for the seating. It is real firm in my opinion also.

I understand allot of the guys with problems have put in chips to increase power. I also understand the injectors on the Duromax can go bad at about 65,000 miles. Believe all of them have problems of some sort, especially if short trips are involved. Ford hassled them about so many warranty repairs on the front ends and trannies. So, the one brother switched to Chevy. ....

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earthwrks
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2004-12-12          102122

PETERS: A Dodge Perkins???---Didn't Dodge only use the Perkins in their taxi cabs back in the late 50's / early 60's? (I'm too young to remember) I came across that info. in my Perkins Service Manual when I was rebuilding my skid loader engine. ....

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AV8R
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2004-12-12          102140

Longhair: "A Dodge is cheaper so it's not because of price."

Av8r: "They sell more trucks because of their extremely cheap fleet sales."

I said 'fleet sales.' I've had to bid against this when I worked for Chevy. Their prices are extremely low, most dealers would loose money if they sold one or two at the big fleet discounts.

Murf: You probably havn't had problems because of your mechanical knowledge and your dilligent maintainance practices on your truck(s). Most owners have neither.

If you have one (or more) of these and haven't had problems, kudos to you, you're doing great. I, personally wouldn't buy one. (I don't know if I would buy the 3rd gen Dodge either.) I'll keep my old truck. ....

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shortmagnum
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2004-12-13          102161

AV8R, Your link to the three connecting rods showed a pretty dramatic difference. But, you are comparing the rods of an inline six with those of a V8. Each rod would HAVE to be at least 33% stronger if the engines provided the same output.
Dave ....

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AV8R
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2004-12-13          102163

'Magnum: Thats exactly my point. The Cummins has 50% of the moving parts with near 50% more surface area on things like bearings.

I'm not trying to flame, but, are there any V-8 Diesels in over-the-road trucks? (Not very many) There must be a reason for that. ....

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Murf
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2004-12-13          102167

The difference being, weight is not the critical factor in designing an engine for a pickup.

That's why they will happily spend thousands of dollars for aluminum wheels. Even just a few pounds of paid frieght lost due to the extra weight of steel wheels alone over nearly a million paid miles adds up to more money than hundreds of aluminum wheels.

An engine with dramatically less weight is a huge selling point in this instance.

Besides, only the smallest of delivery trucks would have an engine as small as a 5.9 litre Cummins. The ISM which is pretty standard in Cummins-powered tractors is an 11 litre displacement as an example, the bigger ISX is 15 litres. That is 2.5 times the size, a big difference.

In a pickup the only weight consideration is that of the relatively light suspension in a vehicle that small. The big goal is smooth power, to compete with the equivalent gas motor. In that case the 8 cylinder wins hands down.

Best of luck. ....

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grassgod
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2004-12-14          102267

I dont no about "fleet sales" but in my area you can buy a 1 ton dodge diesel cheaper then a 1 ton ford diesel with equal options. It is over a $2000 us dollar difference in price. ....

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cutter
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2004-12-15          102308

Price difference is even more here. The sticker price on a one ton quad cab SLT is the same as the extended cab XLT with considerably less equipment. Not only that, the Ford has a $1000 rebate and the Dodge $2300. Usually this time of year is not that busy for dealers, but I am still waiting to hear from the two dealers I contacted about these vehicles two weeks ago.

I am leaning heavily toward the Dodge. ....

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grassgod
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2004-12-15          102312

i own two - 1 ton dual wheel deisel 4wd fords. They work hard plowing & towing trailers 6 days a week. I like them & have no regrets. : ) ....

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AV8R
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2004-12-16          102348

The link below leads to a chat board concerning Ford Diesels. If you have one, or are thinking about buying one, this is a good resource for information.

This thread is about giving rental vehicles while warranty work is being done. One poster states that it FORD policy to always give rentals to 6.0 owners. With other vehicles, it is up to the dealer. Does this mean they see alot of the 6.0's?

I think it's funny how some of these guys are on their 5th or 6th turbo and 3rd or 4th tranny and they are buying another. One guy had his truck bought back 3 times and is waiting delivery on another! Brand (blind?) loyalty. ....


Link:   The Diesel Stop

 
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Murf
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2004-12-16          102351

Here's the way I look at the situation.

Ford sells (in round numbers for this discussion) about a million F-series trucks a year.

Of that total we know from published data that about 40% of those trucks are F-Super Duty units, or about 400,000 units.

Of that 400,000 units roughly 75% of them are diesels, that means the sell about 300,000 PSD-equipped trucks a year.

If this problem has been supposedly been going on for 3.5 years now, since the release of the 6.0 l. PSD that means there are over a million trucks out there.

If even 10% of those million trucks had a mere fraction of the problems as those we are now hearing about it would be on every TV news broadcast and in every paper, magazine or bathroom wall around the world.

I suspect the 'problem' in most of these cases is the 'loose nut behind the wheel' syndrome.

I seem to recall reading posts from some people on this very board about their 'piece of junk' Kubota's or John Deere's a few times, do you agree with them as well.

Best of luck. ....

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Iowafun
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2004-12-16          102353

Murf has got a solid point. In the repair industry, the squeeky wheel gets the attention. When I worked for a different manufacturer, I had a service manager go on and on about how bad a problem they were having with a certain model. He was adamant the sky was falling and we needed a fix put out right away. I dug into the details with the actual dealer. One customer had one unique problem. The sky was not falling, the world did not end. There is always someone who will blow things completely out of proportion.

If someone is on their 3rd or 4th transmission, then I'm suspecting owner abuse. You can't tow 30,000 lbs with a 3/4 or 1 ton pickup and expect the transmission to live forever. I used to look at warranty claim suspension parts because "we've got a big problem!" Grab the part, find the impact point where the owner hit something big, and move on to the next part. 90% of the time such people who cry wolf are really the cause and not the vehicle. ....

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cutter
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2004-12-16          102366

I do agree with Murf that the number of problems must be compared relative to the number of vehicles sold in each category by each manufacturer. I am not so sure that Ford has continued to make changes to their engine and transmission in order to counter the exceptional abuse given them as he states, to correct engineering flaws or simply to continue to evolve it into a better unit.

I wish there were a source available to extract the problems, vehicle brand and type along with total number of units sold.

Dodge certainly had axle problems with the generation two Rams, that was a New Venture issue. They dropped that supplier, oddly enough they used to own it until forced to sell to obtain government loan guarantees. They also had transmission problems that seemed to be corrected in the latter half of that model run. GM has had tons of bad transmissions on the market, mostly in front drive cars but seldom have I heard of Ford truck transmissions going south...

....

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Chief
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2004-12-16          102369

Actually American Axle & Manufacturing makes the axles for the Dodge pickups equipped with diesels. New Venture manufactures the manual transmissions and transfer cases. It is a shame Ford won't offer the Cummins or Caterpillar diesel in their F-250 & 350 pickups. The perfect pickup would be a Ford Crew Cab body equipped with a Cummins ISB or Caterpillar 3126B and a New Venture NV5600 manual trans. or even better yet an Eaton Fuller 7 speed. I am real happy with my Dodge Cummins. It's nice to dream anyway. ;O) ....

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cutter
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2004-12-16          102372

I believe the second generation Rams that experienced axle bore problems were all New Venture. Dodge changed suppliers when the truck was redesigned for 2002. The transfer cases I know still come from New Process (Venture). Isn't American Axle GM owned? I believe I read that somewhere.

....

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AV8R
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2004-12-16          102378

Dodge never, to my knowledge, had axle problems with the genII trucks. Their axles were Dana models. 60 or 44 in the front, 60, 70 80 or 80 hybrid (80 center with 70 shafts) in the rear on the 2500/3500's. They had and still have problems with their auto trannys (that's why I got the hand shaker :p ). The reason for the change to the American axles on the genIII (2003+) trucks was purely $$. They have since changed again. (I don't know to whom)

Gm also buys American axles, but I don't know if they are owned by GM.

BTW, Daimler/Chrysler now owns Detroit diesel, this is probably why GM bought the Isuzu diesel for thier trucks instead of a new Detroit. ....

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yooperpete
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2004-12-20          102594

About a week or so ago I stated that my Farming Cousin with the F350 6.0 wasn't having any problems. I hadn't talked to him in a while. Well, I guess the story is beginning to change for him. Now he is getting some sort of miss and is loosing power on hills, just ripped out a front end and is getting some intermittent noices up front that service can't locate. He definitely doesn't pamper it by any means. ....

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lds
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2005-10-09          117630

furd turts will not make 6.0 after 2006. pain in butt fer them. ....

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Iowafun
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2005-10-09          117631

Ford had another engine going with the supplier of the Powerstroke 6.0. But Ford pulled that new engine progra from the supplier because of the reliability problems with the 6.0 engine in the SD. It's not as reliable as the old 7.3 L was and not as reliable as it should be. So the supplier lost another deal, Ford is stuck with a less than ideal current engine and must foot the bill for developing another engine to replace the 6.0. ....

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cutter
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2005-10-09          117638

To the contrary, Dodge had tons of axle problems with the generation two trucks. They were all the New Venture axles. They did not seem prevalent it the heavier duty Dana units.

Do a search and you will find many complaints. My son went through two in his Dakota 4x4 in less than 40k. It seems the axle bores were not true. ....

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Chief
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2005-10-09          117640

Actually, the axles on the 3rd generation Dodge Cummins pickups are made by American Axle. New Venture manufactured the gearboxes and transfer cases up until recently. The 2nd generation trucks utilized the Dana axles. The Dodge Dakota is a compact truck and not even remotely in the same class as the 3/4 and one ton trucks Dodge and Ford make. I don't think that would be a valid comparison. Both the 7.3 and 6.0 liter diesel engines are manufactured by International Harvester for Ford. Ford still offers the Cummins ISB engine and the Caterillar 3126B on its larger commercial trucks. I like both the Cummins ISB and the Cat 3126B but I think more aftermarket goodies are available for the Cummins. Actually both the none Ford versions of the 7.3 and 6.0 diesel engines manufactured by International are very good engines. Ford has modified and adapted these engines to its applications and I think that may be wherein the problem lies. ....

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AV8R
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2005-10-09          117644

Quite right 'Lion. I should have been more informative, the generation levels I was referring to back then was the Gen I, II and III Cummins powered HD Dodge trucks, not their 1/2 ton and lighter trucks. Sorry for the confusion. ....

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Chief
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2005-10-09          117646

AV8R, I thought you and I were on the same sheet of music. ;o) I saw the post that referred to New Venture axles and that is what I thought may be confusing. ....

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Peters
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2005-10-09          117647

FYI - The clutch packs in the limited slip Dana's in the Dodge need the oil to be changed periodically. I had mine done at around 75,000. Most people don't think about changing it although it is in the manual. ....

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cutter
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2005-10-10          117693

I did not realize you were referring to the Cummins either, sorry for the confusion. I knew the HD axles in those vehicles were Dana and have not heard of any problems with them. ....

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