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Stihl 2 Stroke Oil Fuel Mix

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Chief
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2003-11-02          67810

I recently used up my last bottle of Stihl 2 stroke mix last week (which I purchased in bulk a few years ago) and purchased more a few weeks ago to replace it. I mixed up the new Stihl 2 stroke mix and noticed it is blue in color but went on about my business. I accidently spilt some on my hand and noticed that it was NOT near as oily feeling as the old stuff I was using. I am sure I mixed it as per the directions on the bottle but just did not trust how thin the fuel looked with respect to oil content. I doubled the mixture to 25:1 to be on the safe side expecting to see alot of smoke and mess but it burned very clean. I think I liked the old formula better. Has anyone noticed this? I am very hesitant to chance burning up a $400 leaf blower or my $900 Stihl O-66 with fuel that may be EPA friendly but not sufficiently lubricating the engine. I will email Stihl and post whatever response I get from them.

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AC5ZO
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2003-11-02          67811

I have been burning two stroke oil in various machines for decades and I always mix the product according to the oil manufacturers directions.

I have had two engine seizures. One was on an engine that was running oil injection rather than premix. The other seizure was when I rode a friends motorcycle at an altitude about 2500 ft below the altitude it was jetted for. The first problem was cured by increasing the injection volume. The second problem was a simple jetting issue that was uncovered when I rode the bike more agressively than its owner.

I have never seized or had a problem with any of my chainsaws, weed whackers, or other 2 stroke engines running the oil as recommended by the manufacturer. Excess oil tends to burn hotter, foul plugs, and gum up the works, so adding too much oil is not good. Today, I run mostly synthetic oils at about 50:1. ....

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Art White
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2003-11-02          67812

They might have changed the mix formula with the new 4 strokes out. ....

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DennisCTB
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2003-11-02          67816

I have a new model Stihl Chainsaw, an 8 year old Red Max Leaf Blower, and a 16 year old Tanaka weed wacker. The older equipment all had mix ratio recommendations under 50-1.

A year or so ago I used the Stihl 50-1 mix in the 16 year old Tanaka and it seized up. I changed the mix ratio to 38-1 (makes roughly 2 gallons instead of 2.5 as recommended) and the Tanaka and the rest of my 2cycle stuff is working fine with that mix. I think 25-1 is probably pushing it too far the other way. ....

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Billy
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2003-11-02          67819

Chief, The 2 cycle oil makers are going to a smokeless formula. If it calls for 50:1, that's the way I'd mix it. ....

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budgie
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2003-11-02          67851

I have older saws that will not wear out. Even though I heated my house with wood for years. The saws are 61cc engines with chrome cylinders, needle bearings, and a compression release. The saws (when new) called for a 16:1 mix. I have always used that mix using quicksilver outboard motor oil. What mix would you use in the saws now?
Bud ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-11-02          67855

My chainsaw is fairly old. My father bought it and used it for years, so it is at least 20 years old. I am sure that when it was new, it used a conventional two stroke oil with a fairly concentrated mixture. We did not go from 16:1 to 50:1 without changes in the oil. If you are using a conventional oil, and it works for you, it makes sense to use the mixture that works.

Those conventional oils caused us problems with our unlimited desert racing bikes in the late 70s and 80s, so a lot of the racers switch over to the newer and fairly expensive synthetics along with the leaner oil mixtures. I don't know of a single racing team that has gone the other direction. The engines run cooler and stay cleaner.

I have taken the synthetics to my other equipment like the old chainsaw, too. It may be more critical here. I live at 5300 ft above sea level. Oil and fuel mixtures are critical, more difficult to adjust, and are less forgiving. ....

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TomG
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2003-11-03          67872

I wonder if some manufacturers have backed off 50:1 recommendations. That may be true in the case of our Township Wajax forestry fire pumps but I'm not certain the company ever recommended 50:1. Discussion came up in the context of 'Don't use your own chain-saw fuel in the pumps.' I seem to recall somebody saying that newer engines don't use 50:1 any more. Fire pumps would be a different application from most. They are expected to go under heavy loads for many hours at a time. ....

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Chief
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2003-11-03          67898

Here is the email reply I got back from Stihl today on this issue. I was very impressed that they replied so quickly. I disagree with the recommendation at least until I can get some hard facts and figures as to how well this new oil works. I'm not going to risk a $900 chainsaw on one email just yet. I will run the oil mixture as rich as will run clean until then.



"Randy,

We are in receipt of and thank you for the e-mail. The Stihl oil produced
today we feel is better than the oil produced in the past. We recommend
mixing the oil at a 50:1 ratio. Mixing the oil at a 25:1 is not
recommended. Using the 25:1 ratio can lead to excessive carbon deposits and
insufficient cooling.

Thank you again for the e-mail.

Sincerely,

Kris Williams
Technical Advisor
Stihl Inc."
....

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Murf
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2003-11-03          67900

Randy, we have MANY hours on older equipment, Stihl and others, using that new oil, no problems yet.

We also noticed the lack of smoke, kind of nice but I still think of two stroke smoke as visible indication of the protection.

Best of luck. ....

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DRankin
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2003-11-03          67920

Randy, Stihl is presently marketing three different oils. What color is the bottle? ....

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Chief
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2003-11-03          67922

Mark, the bottle is Stihl orange and the label says 2 Cycle High Performance Engine Oil. The old bottle was orange too and said it was 2 Cycle Engine Oil. I listed the part # in the email transcript. ....

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DRankin
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2003-11-04          67974

The blurb for the orange bottle sez it is a premium quality conventional petroleum based engine oil for high performance air cooled 2 cycle engines. It has a pour depressant for cold weather ops and a mixing agent to help it blend with all types of gasoline, including oxygenated fuels.

It is designed for a 50:1 mix. ....

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Chief
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2003-11-04          67976

I will try it out and thin out the ratio as i go along. It just did not seem near as lubricative as the old formula which I did mixed at about 40:1. If it burns cleaner and still lubricates as well, so much the better. I am still a little leary of trusting it just yet. ....

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DennisCTB
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2003-11-04          67986

I think you are supposed to adjust the carburetor settings to accomodate the 50-1, and that is why my old Tanaka locked up. My stuff has been running fine so I did not want to fiddle with success, so I am adjusting the 50-1 to 40-1 and have had no problems.

For our more mechanically savy changing the carb setting should be easy enough to enable 50-1 I would think. ....

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JAZAK5
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2003-11-04          68012

my 046 magnum and my new fs-85 string trimmer run the orange 50:1 factory mix and the oil that came with my fs-85 is california compliant due to the formulation to be used in the new 2 strokes that have catholitic converters. how ever AMSOIL sells a synthetic 2 stroke oil that mixes (1) 6 oz. bottle to 5 u.s. gal. of gas and is guarenteed for all ratios ie. 16:1/32:1/40:1/50:1 about $6.00 a bottle (about the same as conventional mixes) this would solve the multiple cans for different machines. as soon as I use up my old stuff I am converting.I have alot of faith in AMSOIL products and I am giving it a try.
fuel/oil ratio is separate from air/fuel-oil mix and a engine needs the proper balance of both to run efficantly !!!! the carb can only alter the air/fuel ratio . ....

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DRankin
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2003-11-04          68014

Dennis: Good point.

Chief: the Stihl bottle I have has ratios printed on it to achieve 32:1 and 40:1 suggesting to me that there is an advantage in sticking with the ratio your stuff was designed for.

The other thing that mystifies me a bit is the caution not to use 2 cycle oils designed for outboards in Stihl saws.

Does anyone know what the difference is? ....

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Chief
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2003-11-04          68016

Mark, all of my Stihl equipment is designed for 50:1 but this new formula oil mixed according to directions just seems way to thin and not near as oily feeling. It seems like it just tints the gas blue. The older Stihl oil would make the gas dark green and you could feel an oiliness in it much more so than this new stuff. I am just a little leary of it. ....

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Murf
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2003-11-05          68037

Mark, there are two prime differences between outboards and most other two stroke engines.

The first is from a technical aspect, the water cooled outboard, pumping relatively cold water through the engine with no thermostat, runs MUCH cooler than a chainsaw for example, it therefore needs less protection in certain areas.

The second point is the environment, the exhaust on an outboard is normal below waterline, for reasons of sound attenuation. Coupled with the first point, this means the manufacturers must produce an oil which is more 'lake' friendly, and less 'motor' friendly.

A minor consideration above those two is operating speeds, outboards turn slower than your chainsaw does. When I was a kid I built a go-kart and the only motor available was out of a big old MacCuluogh chainsaw, a nasty brute that my Father didn't really mind seeing go. I forgot about the rpm's involved in selecting drive sprokets, that thing would barely pull away from a stop, but once rolling it would pull away from acar on the road out front of the farm.

Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2003-11-05          68040

BOYS ,BOYS, BOYS, about ten plus years ago I was looking at boats, found one thought it would work and the price was right. I was impressed that it had always had the same blend oil since new and the fellow still had half a case of oil mix as well. Compression was 120 on all four cylinders which I thought was great. About the time I came to the end of the oil I also took a little water out of the bottom of the fuel tank and lost two cylinders. Upon tear down the inside was loaded with carbon and you could see where several chunks was gone and the cylinders were scoured quite well. I forget if it was a 20 thousand or 30 bore right now but I fixed it up well and sold it a year later to buy an IO that I'm about to start with rebuilding now. While I was waiting and having all this great two-cycle oil here at the shop
i could buy at a discount I called up husky and Stihl to see about using there oil in my boat after I get it back together. Well I did learn a lot! That cute plastic jug that has a chain saw, snowmobile,trimmer,boat motor, and a mess more things it's supposed to work on, while I was told you may get by but don't figure on any logevity records!! A chainsaw runs about 400 to 500 degree's warmer then a water cooled boat moter does on the top of a piston! No wonder why there was so much carbon on thse pistons!! To go a bit further, the 50 to one mix is for a better machined engine, the 32 to 1 is not machined as fine and needs more oil to fill the machining grooves to lubricate properly. How we doing now? ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-11-05          68053

I have never had a boat, so I don't know about the differences, but Murf and Art make good points. My stuff is all air cooled. In the 1980s we used a brand of 2 stroke oil called Duralube synthetic in our 2 stroke race bikes. It mixed 50:1. I tried to look up Duralube today and there is a website with that name, but they look like they sell completely different products. Perhaps they changed or maybe it is a different company.

I was in a racing club called the Prairie Dogs. Most of us raced large 2 stroke motorcycles and most of us used Duralube. We just did not have problems with the engines. Some of the unlimited class bikes would run 100MPH over the smooth drylake beds in the California desert. That generates a lot of heat, but the oil was up to it.

In 1984, I switched over to 4 stroke bikes because of the greater range in Baja Mexico. A good portion of the fuel/oil mixture that goes through a 2-stroke is for cooling the piston and it flows right through the cylinder from the intake to the exhaust ports without burning. That unused fuel (and the smoke) is a good part of the reason that the environmentalists hate 2-stroke motors.

I haven't used a rich oil mix in 2 strokes since those racing days.

There was a comment about carburetion and changing only the fuel mix. When using premix, changing the jetting changes both oil and fuel. If you lean out the engine, it runs hotter from having less fuel for cooling, more oxygen for the combustion, and less oil for lubrication. Running lean can kill an engine faster than you can shut it down. Running rich will simply foul plugs and cause the engine to be sluggish until the mixture can be fine tuned. A 2 stroke engine that has a lean mixture will run great and will have an extremely "crisp" response right up until it seizes. We used to carry jets for our racing motorcycles and would change them when we varied the altitude by 3000 ft or so. It was always better to run rich rather than risk the engine. But my point is that you cannot separate fuel, oil, or air when using premixed oil/gasoline.

....

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DennisCTB
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2003-11-05          68057

AC5ZO,

Not sure if you were relating to my comment. I think I read on some Stihl literature that using an old saw that specified 32 to 1 could run on 50-1 but that you "might" need to adjust the carburetor settings to avoid damage to the engine.

I don't have it in front of me and it was a while ago might have been when they came out with the 40-1 mix so perhaps it is wishful thinking. I agree with what you are saying as it seems to make sense that the more fuel mix you run the cooler it will be. So if you were trying to run an old 32-1 mix saw with 50-1 you would have to make the carburetor setting richer, right?

DennisCTB
TractorPoint ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-11-05          68060

Dennis, I agree with your statement. The statement that bothered me and that I thought was misleading is:

>
>Posted by JAZAK5
>fuel/oil ratio is separate from air/fuel-oil mix and a
>engine needs the proper balance of both to run
>efficantly !!!! the carb can only alter the air/fuel
> ratio .

Once you pick an oil/gas ratio, the carburetor adjusts premix to air ratio. Oil is part of that equation in the carburetor. The last sentence in particular is misleading, or at least I did not understand it. The only time that you can separate the gas/oil/air components is on engines that use oil injection behind the carburetor.

With respect to your question about richer/leaner...With a leaner oil mixture (50:1 for example) you get more fuel through the carburetor for a given premix flow. My initial guess would be that you need to lean up the carburetor. If you have needle valve adjustments, adjust the mains till the saw runs really crisp. (accellerates from idle to full speed with a minimum of time and throttle.) That will probably be a little on the lean side. Then adjust the valve to the rich side of that. Generally 1/2 to 1 turn will be fine.

A rich setting will cause the engine to blubber and hesitate. It may produce more smoke. To really tell, shut off the engine while it is working at full or very high throttle. If the plug is black/brown looking, you are probably safe. If the plug turns very bright to white, it is running too lean. You have to shut the engine down under load and rapidly for this spark plug examination to be useful.

The carburetor should not require much change. Oil is going to be somewhere between 2% and 8% of the premix volume. Premix to air in the carburetor is going to be about 8%, so a change in oil mixture is only going to change the air/fuel ratio by less than 1/2% at most. ....

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WillieH
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2003-11-05          68101

Well...you guys will love this one.

My neighbor was given a new Stihl AV18 two years ago for Christmas from his son in law. The neighbor is as cheap as they get and always reasons, that his way is the ONLY way.
The two of us grabbed our saws and gear, he with his AV18, and me with my 1986 O28AV Super, and drive off into the woods on the orange. We cut and cut. Then he says,"hey can you see if you can start my saw...it doesn't want to start". I finally got it running, only after I realized that his was pretty hot. I really did not think of it at the time, but that was a tell tale sign.

Mid summer, he comes over to the house, and asks me to take a look at his saw - it won't start. He says here is the oil and gas...it needs to be mixed yet. I take a look at what he handed me, only to realize that the darn fool had been mixing motor oil, (a cheapo brand at that), with his fuel rather than two stroke oil since his original 1/2 pint of two stroke oil ran out. I told him that I thought the likely hood of his engine being kaput was pretty high. Come to find out, the rings were so far worn, that the piston was almost free floating in the cylinder, not to mention the piston and wall wear. About $250 later, its all rebuilt, and now he blames me for the damages sustained from him using motor oil for his fuel mix oil. Go figure!
This comes from the same guy who mixes his redwood house stain with his spent motor oil to stretch the stain while he paints his house with it. Anybody got a match? POOF!
(Occupation - retired TEACHER) Me thinks he left his smarts in the classroom.

-Willie H. ....

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kwschumm
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2003-11-05          68102

Maybe he's just too lazy to recycle his motor oil. If he was constipated he'd probably drink the stuff. ....

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Chief
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2003-11-05          68104

I can't begin to imagine what he would have done with the Weather Channel Temperature Probes Feature? ;-) Just can't get that out of my head now! ;-) ....

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WillieH
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2003-11-05          68105

Chief -
Yea...once you see them "probes"...Be mindful the next time you turn on the weather channel, and your wife see's you reaching for the dials for "fine tuning"! :)

-Willie H. ....

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Murf
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2003-11-06          68124

There's a very popular around here ....

"Those who can do something well are called craftsmen, those who can't do it worth a darn are called teachers."

My next door neighbour at the cottage is a retired (know it all) school shop teacher, he's a great source entertainment for the rest of the neighbours....

I remember one time he was trying to build a new woodshed, he asked me to have a look at his new skil-saw, because there was obviously something wrong with it, when I asked him why he thought so his reply was he had cut the same board 4 times and it was STILL too SHORT....

Best of luck. ....

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Art White
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2003-11-06          68172

AS my wife is a teacher, of our future leaders! I have to watch what I say to much to often. I have an old saying that when the good Lord asked if we wanted common cents, some just said no, I want dollar bills send me to collage. ....

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JAZAK5
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2003-11-08          68292

I never had the intention to mislead any one ,the oil in a fuel mix is for lubrication,right ?! air/fuel oil mix is so an engine will run correctly ie. 14.7 to 1 fuel/ air ratio at sea level so combustion is complete with out polution being excessive or to rich fouling the plug and not to lean causing to much heat.
I also believe this is the mind set of the new synthetic 2 stroke oils that seem to lubricate so well that one ratio is effective for all no matter of ring,piston,cylinder,roller/sleeve/bushing :bearing material/ composition. ....

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TomG
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2003-11-09          68308

I think I read somewhere that oil in the fuel changes the effective air/fuel ratio. Oil crowds out the gas and too much leans the mixture. Pure speculation here but I'm guessing that changing the oil fuel ratio requires readjusting the carb.

I don't know what the range of adjustment is but I suppose it's possible that the carbs on machines that were designed for low ratios may not adjust enough to allow running 50:1 or higher ratios even if better oils provided adequate lubrication. ....

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AC5ZO
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2003-11-09          68355

Jazak, I did not believe that you intentionally misled anyone. I was just trying to clear up something that was confusing. From your last post, I think that we agree on what the proper solution is.

Tom, my post on the ratios that discusses the numbers is valid. The change in mixture in going from rich to lean oil mixture is only about 1/2%. Any carburetor will adjust the mixture by that amount. You have to be able to adjust mixture by >4% just to account for altitude. (tree line)

In the final analysis, the percentage doesn't really matter. We don't adjust carburetors by dialing in a specific percentage of fuel to air, we peak up the engine and then enrichen the mixture slightly. Any nominal settings in a manual are for normal mixtures at sea level. ....

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TomG
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2003-11-10          68363

Thanks AC. Specific responses to theoretical questions always are good--helps the understanding. Seems like this is another example of our usual ratio of theory to specific around here. Too much theory leans the mixture and overheats the air. I think I missed your ratios post. ....

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Billy
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2003-11-10          68368

In this case, since fuel = oil and gas, JAZAK5 is right. "the carb can only alter the air/fuel ratio". The one doing the mixing can alter the fuel.

The way I see it is...If you mix the fuel at a 40:1 ratio, that means 3.2 ounces of oil to 128 ounces of gas. If you change the ratio to say 20:1, this will cause less gas and more oil going through the carb (which will cause it to run lean). So you adjust the carb to allow more fuel, to bring the gas back to where it was before.

The problem with running too much oil is you have to increase the fuel to air ratio which increases the oil ratio even more.

Makes sense to me anyway LOL
....

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AC5ZO
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2003-11-10          68370

Billy, you are getting to the heart of what I found confusing in the first place. Let me post it again.

Posted by JAZAK5
>fuel/oil ratio is separate from air/fuel-oil mix and a
>engine needs the proper balance of both to run
>efficantly !!!! the carb can only alter the air/fuel
> ratio .

The semantics of this can be debated, but gasoline is the fuel and oil is the lubricant carried in the premix. Others may refer to premix as fuel. Either way you cut it, the clip above refers to fuel air ratio from a carburetor adjustment and then refers to "air/fuel-oil mix" in the next line.

I can understand how it would be easy to have a misunderstanding about 2-Stroke "fuel", but the clip above uses it both ways. That was why it confused me and I said something about it.
....

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AC5ZO
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2003-11-10          68371

Tom, there is a saying that I like....

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice." ....

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TomG
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2003-11-11          68455

Yes I like that one too. It does sound like everybody has the theory, practical and words together on this one so I'll go off-topic and indulge myself.

Theory is good for coming to an understanding of principles, which can simplify the practical. Without a grasp of principles a person is like a cook that can't cook without a cookbook. Every variation of the same problem requires its own recipe. What we seem to do pretty well here is blend theory and practical.

Well, I tend to get carried away with theory but that's mostly because my Ford doesn't break often enough for me to become really practical. Suppose my time'll come though. Most of my practical came a long time ago and from old cars and motorcycles. ....

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bmanke
Join Date: Nov 2003
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2003-11-22          69354

The new Stihl oil is not a result of EPA. It is a result of the advances in oil technology and new chemicals that have been developed over the past few years. All Stihl products can be run at 50:1 with Stihl oil. Do not mix at 25:1 it won't do any good and will cause more carbon buildup. The black bottled mix is the newest formula and burns cleaner than the old high performance oil in the organge bottle. ....

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Chief
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2003-11-25          69628

Just a follow up. I have been running the 25:1 mix for several tanks full now and it seems to be burning clean and not making a mess. The next batch I mix up, I will try 40:1 and see how it goes. ....

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ackley280
Join Date: Sep 2003
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2004-03-13          79753

In the local saw shop recently and the dealer mentioned he had a 2 cycle oil that can be mixed at 100:1 and used in any 2 cycle equipment regardless of the recommended mix. He said it was synthetic. Any experience or thoughts appreciated. ....

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DRankin
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2004-03-13          79771

Amsoil has been selling 100:1 mix 2 cycle synthetic oil for several decades.

I must admit I was always too chicken to mix it that lean. ....

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GaleHawkins
Join Date: Dec 2003
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2004-03-17          80167

I use the orange bottle Stihl good for mixing with 2.5 gallons and just use 2 gallons for 40:1 mix. I was told by my shop in very hot weather the 40:1 is preferred so I just go that route all of the time. Sea Foam will address the carbon build up that occurs in all 2 strokes from my experience. It is magic that a 2 stroke works without locking up :) When my dad used the 16:1 years ago he was just using 30 weight motor oil. ....

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