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 | RFB111
Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4 
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2006-02-27 125262
Sirs,
I am planning to purchase and install a diesel genset for standby power somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 - 50 kw. I need some suggestions on how to plan the transfer switch(s) layout.
Here is the background information:
The house has a service (meter) and the garage and pumphouse are on another service separate from the house.(This meter is on a 6x6 post fairly close to the tformer, and power from this meter goes to the garage and pump-house) Both services come from a single surface mount (underground lines) transformer, with individual service going to each of the two meters.
The planned location for the genset is on a semi-enclosed pad next to a proposed new building (combination machine-shed/wood-shed/storage room). I will have to run (underground) lines from the genset to the house, as well as the aforementioned second service meter.
I have a drawing of the layout on pdf, but I do not know how to attach it here.
Question #1 (Once I answer this, there will likely be more)
Where is the best place/required place to place the ATS, and will I need two of them, or one?
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 | harvey
Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 1550 Moravia, NY 
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2006-02-27 125269
If you have 2 seperate services you will have to have 2 seperate transfer switches.
Now would be a good time to reevaluate the need for 2 services and combine them and on pay for 1 service. Then you would only need 1 transfer switch.
If you have them seperate for taxes for a business talk to an accoutant how to wiggle the power into the business side. Our acc't has a formula and it seems very generous to me. ....
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 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma 
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2006-02-27 125270
Two electric meters equals two transfer switches. It might be cheaper to tie the garage and pumphouse into the house meter. ....
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| RFB111
Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4
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2006-02-27 125273
Changing from two meters to one is not practical from either a money or a utilitarian sense. I would have to tear up concrete over in-ground lines to pull the garage/pump-house service back to the house, and the two separate services were designed that way for a reason. (We live VERY rural; no real fire protection except for self. With two meters, in the event of a house fire I can cut-off all residence power and still have water to fight the fire.)
Going back to the original Q, is it then as simple (yeah, right)
as installing two ATS's, one inside the residence, and one exterior rated on the 2nd service? ....
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| Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma
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2006-02-27 125275
Yes, it's that simple. Another thing you could do, if you want to save some bucks, is put the garage and pumphouse on a manual tranfer switch. ....
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| RFB111
Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4
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2006-02-27 125278
Yes sir, I was thinking of that as a cost saving option.
With that question fairly resolved (Question "Is there anything you have not thought of?" Answer: "How would I know?")
Q #2:
I am planning on trailer mounting this genset(and locating it on the pad) so that in the event of service needed beyond my ability, I can tow to a repair site. That saves big money when the closest is 260 miles round trip.
I want to run a (for the lack of the known term) "shore line" type plug into a weather-rated exterior box as the connection from the genset to the hard-lines. Is this a doable with this size of system (40 - 50kw)?
By the way, thanks for the replies. ....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada 
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2006-02-28 125288
The absolute simplest, and very likely cheapest, way to do it would be to have a stub pole or 12" x 12" PT timber set in the ground next to the transformer. On it have a single meter mounted that in turn feeds both service panels, the garage / pumphouse and house itself.
You would then only need one transfer switch to run both buildings.
If you mounted the genset next to the garage you could then use the existing wire to carry the supply to the house. This would also allow you to remote mount the battery inside to keep it charged and ready.
As for trailer mounting, that makes it a little too mobile, especially if there is any amount of theft in your area, a genset is a popular item.
I would suggest having it skid-mounted, then have a trailer and a come-along or winch to pull it up onto the trailer in the unlikely event you ever need to take it away for service, or get a tilt & load tow truck to do the whole move. By skid I mean the steel drag frame used on construction equipment, not wood.
Best of luck. ....
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| RFB111
Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 4
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2006-02-28 125301
I like the idea of the single remote meter near the tformer...I had not thought of that, and it potentially reduces the cost of two ATS's. I will be hiring a licensed electrician and pulling a permit to do all of this, so it remains to be seen how much it would cost for that option as opposed to two ATS's.
I do not know if I can backfeed from the garage to the house, since I only had the garage setup for 100 amp service when I ran the power for it, and the house is a 200 amp service. (BTW, all services are underground.)
As far as theft; we are pretty rural. The county is 1400 square miles with only a pop of 3,000 and not one traffic light in the entire county. To get to the property, one has to drive a mile down a private road behind a locked gate. Then there are the five fur-covered guided heat-seekers. The genset will be located behind a locked rollup door in a semi-enclosed (ventilation provided) area.
Do you have any thoughts on the shore-line quick connect? ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2006-02-28 125306
I know the plugs you're talking about, they're called "twist lock" plugs.
The problem you will have though is capacity. You are talking about 40 or 50 Kw, even on strictly 220 volt that is ~180++ amps. The biggest you can get a twist lock plug, receptacle or the wire it takes is 50 amps.
Unless you have a way of spreading the load across 4 or 5 of them you're out of luck.
You may also have problems with putting the genset inside an enclosure, even if it is ventilated.
Best of luck.
....
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 | kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-02-28 125308
Could you not run exhaust pipe from the unit through the wall to exhaust directly outside and if necessary do a fresh air intake the same?
kt ....
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 | AnnBrush
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 463 Troy OH
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2006-03-02 125390
Your numbers seem a bit off. You state you have a 200A service panel in the house - at maximum capacity that would require a 22kW genset unit (extremely unlikely - and you can easily make do with far less). That means the garage/shop will be pulling another 25kw (for approximate 40 to 50 kW genset). Sounds like you have a lot of requirements - but you want to use flexible (temporary) connections for the genset because you indicate you want to be able to move it for service etc (due to cost of having someone comeout and service it?). You want to use an ATS (and with your current set up you will need two of them). This is an electrical contractors dream - $$$$ cha-ching $$$ - this setup is going to run you $2500 a piece for the ATS probably another $10000 for the generator (guessing) and with the electrical instalation (sensors cabling etc I guess this would cost about 25000. No electrical contractor will plug and cord (shore line) this system. If you have an ATS ($$$$) why put the genset on a plug and cord? If you can afford to lay out this much for the system whats the problem with getting someone out to service it. I have a hardwired Deere generator on an ATS that feeds two hog barns my company operates (approx 200A each) and it gets serviced by the local diesel mechanic every 2 years. It's got no more than 70 hours on it. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-03-02 125398
Murf,
I just realized cooling of the unit may be a concern inside. In my part of the world generators are used more in summer (storms) than winter so air flow is important.
kt ....
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| steve4300
Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 71 NH
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2006-03-02 125446
my cost on a 12kw generac generator with a 100 amp ATS is around 3300. if you want to manuel it is a lot cheaper. Also if you want to keep it portable I believe that both miller and lincoln welders are making a desial welder , and I do know that they both have 50 amp 4 wire plug, same comfiguration as the newer ranges. They also come with a couple of 110 outlets . As far running a generator inside most states won't allow it even with a venting exhaust, they rust, they leak, they kill. ....
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| kabeman2
Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 2 Villa Ridge, MO
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2006-07-27 132705
"I know the plugs you're talking about, they're called "twist lock" plugs.
The problem you will have though is capacity. You are talking about 40 or 50 Kw, even on strictly 220 volt that is ~180++ amps. The biggest you can get a twist lock plug, receptacle or the wire it takes is 50 amps.
Unless you have a way of spreading the load across 4 or 5 of them you're out of luck."
Try this link to Hubbell: http://www.hubbell-wiring.com/PinandSleeve.asp
These will work for you but will be expensive.
Good luck! ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2006-07-27 132717
A while back there was a long discussion on transfer switches and how to do it safely and such.
Our local coop just printed the way they suggest and found it very simple, pleased use sufficient size extension cords and plug your applicances directly into the generator. no transfer switch or any other connection to the house.
God Bless, ....
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