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 | MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana 
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2002-10-12 43740
Ok Folks, for my first time, since being a memeber, I am asking for advice. Here is the dilema.
We currently have a 4400 in our shop. She is owned by a large swine farm in our area. They have been excellent customers.
This tractor, and the farm, were recent victoms of vandalism. The 4400 was driven into a lagoon holding liquid animal waste (Hog S**T). It was reported stolen a few weeks ago. It was found when the contents of the lagoon were pumped and applied to farmland nearby.
We have it in our shop. We've drained, flushed, and refilled all fluid reservours and plumbing, completely cleaned all residue from it's exterior and inspected for damage, and have made subsequent repairs. We replace the starter, and the alternator to name a few. Only one problem remains.
Here is my question. This is not the first incedent of this type we have dealt with. In each of the prior cases, the next two years were electrical system nightmares. Resulting in re-wireing the tractors completely. Hog Manure is very corrosive. While we spend hours and hours cleaning the connections, within months, problems occure.
Insurance companies will not pay to replace wireing that apears to be in good condition at the time. And it is a hassel to file a claim 1 year later.
We have sprayed WD-40, Silicon grease, Lithium grease, and a whole bunch of other things rangeing from spit to Oil of Olay, on the connections in the past. Nothing seams to work. Corrosion persists, until there is little left to do than replace each harness ( you can only clip them so many times before thay are too short), switch, or plug. Any thing that is not sealed.
It is my guess, that the high content of Ammonia in the animal waste is the culprit. Copper, Brass, Aluminium, The three metals that are prevalant in any electrical system, go south when in contact with the ammonia.
Is there anything that could be applied to these connections that will nutralize the effects of the ammonia?
It is my recolection that the ammonia is a base on the PH scale. So I guess we would need an acid? Or am I over simplifieng things?
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| JerryGoucher
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 100 NW AR
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2002-10-12 43743
In the poultry business, we sometimes use acid is used to neutralize the ammonia on the house floors. I would think that a vinegar solution might do the trick. I don't know, but it would be worth a try and it is cheap.
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley 
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2002-10-12 43745
Soda water is what comes to mind. There are CO2 units used in bars and restaurants that make the stuff in quantity. Soda water wouldn’t leave a residual.
I'm not sure the idea actually is adequate but the strategy is neutralizing ammonia, which is a weak base, with a weak acid. If the bases and acids aren’t the same chemical strength, the resulting salts also will be corrosive.
Ammonia tends to not like water as well as other acid making compounds (you can smell it) and I'm not sure if it would come to a PH that isn't corrosive if just exposed to air and maybe heat. I'm also not certain if it's feasible to get a weak acid solution everywhere needed--plenty of uncertainties here. There probably is somebody here who's Chemistry is more recent than mine.
Another approach might be talking to the insurance adjuster to say that wiring has been part of the damage in past cases and it should be replaced as part of the original claim. If the insurance company balks, you could ask them to identify a solution that they would cover and then write a letter to both the insurance company and your customer indicating that past experience indicated that damage likely occurred and that the covered solution may not be adequate. No surprises for anybody that way.
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-10-12 43747
When we get into these deals, can't say they have been just like yours, normally just water from a pond. We would spec all wiring and switches in our estimate. The insureance companies do question our thoughts on it but they have had cars with flood damage and they normally total them if they have been submerged at all. ....
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-10-12 43750
Thanks for the prompt response Tom and Jerry (No pun intended), I've just e-mailed the adjuster and phoned the customer, explaining the situation, and asking for suggestions. I also included your suggestions for their review.
Won't know much for a few days now.
Dig this tidbit of knowledge also. The customer's ins. company rented them a replacement from our store. At first, the tractor was considered stolen, but the sherriff suspected it would be found nearby. The ins adjuster approoved a rental from us based on that fact. The missing tractor is less than 1 year old. They had replacement coverage, but within the policy, there was a certain amount of time that must lapse, before a check was to be written. This left my customer out in the cold, he needs that tractor several hours a day. It was only with some haggleing, and the involvement of his local agent, that the adjuster approved the rental.
Just another example of the importance of dealing with local, reputable people.
Again, thanks for the help guys! I'll keep you posted.
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-10-12 43751
opps....sorry Art, you slipped one in on me while I was typeing. I've never been around car claims for submerged damage. I never thought to counter the adjuster's negative response to our re-wireing part of the estimate with the info you just gave me..
Thanks to you also. ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-10-12 43752
When we had a motor or outboard submersed in salt water the first course of action was to submerse the motor in fresh water. We would leave it in clean fresh water for a week or so to dilute the salt.
After this we would remove the electrics and dry them out and fill the block with recycled oil (inexpensive oil). We could normally get starters and alternators to work.
If you have an base base problem you can neutralize it or dilute it. Baking Soda can be used to neutralize it or vinegar. The cheapest source of baking soda that I know of is SAMS large boxes, even cheaper than the pool supply locally. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-13 43769
MrE: Hope it all works out. Sounds like Art and I are coming from the same place. It wouldn't be good to get caught in the middle of what amounts to a potential argument between your customer and his insurance company. It seems like a good course to limit your role to saying what your experience in similar cases has been to both parties. If guy is a good customer to you, he probably also is to the insurance agent and the agent is to the underwriter so there probably will be agreement eventually.
An issue in the wiring other than corrosion is the long-term effect on insulation. Many substances deteriorate insulation and reduce its life expectancy. The insulation material probably conforms to a SAE spec, and the question is whether the spec includes exposure to ammonia.
Regarding the Tom and Jerry joke. I used to play congas for a singer/song writer named Gerry. We used to campaign his songs around town mostly as a duo. That's the way the music economics work. At a certain level, most players don't work for free and you actually don't want sidemen playing your tunes that aren't busy with paying work. Bands have names and duos usually don't, so emcees regularly asked how to introduce us. Gerry says 'My name or something. Just don't introduce us as Tom and Jerry or even Jerry and Tom.'
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-13 43773
Peters: I'm curious what a base base problem is. I know that you're the chemist here. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2002-10-13 43774
Tom just my typos. I was debating where the main problem would be urea acid of the ammonia a base. ....
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| DavesTractor
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 148 Red Bluff, California
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2002-10-13 43780
I worked as an adjuster for years and then a regional claims supervisor for 10 years before coming to my senses and starting a tractor sales business. If we had a car that was submerged over the top of the engine and/or into the dash (instrument panel area) we would total it every time. Even if it was clear water and the car was worth big dollars. In the few cases in which the insured talked us into making an exception, we regretted it. Invariably we would be haunted by intermittnet electrical problems. On a tractor, things are not as complicated, but even so I would either total it or replace all electrical components, including the parts you have already mentioned and the dash, guages, wiring, etc. It is cheaper to do it complete once than to have to do it in pieces over a year or two. I would think the insurance carrier should welcome this approach. It is honest, and really is the only way to make the insured whole again. ....
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| TomG
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5406 Upper Ottawa Valley
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2002-10-14 43795
Peters: I'm happy enough to find that I didn't stumble on one more gap in my basic education. Wish I had a depreciated nickel for every time I've thought one thing and typed another. ....
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-10-14 43797
Thanks for all the advice folks. I've alerted the customer, and the adjuster. We are playing a waiting game now. Keep posting comments if you like. I asked for advice, and will not shut it out.
I believe it will be resolved, I want all parties to be informed enough to make their choices. Then, they can tell us what to do.
Our shop prepared an estimate, that included a complet electrical system replacement. The tractor is new enough, and has enough value, the estimate was well below a total loss. However, the adjuster felt our estimate was was too high. He had another estimate from a independant repair shop that was much cheaper.
Upon compairing the two, we found his did not attack the wireing issue. Once that was removed from the estimate, our's was very competitive. The adjuster agreed to let us do the work, less the wireing problems. And he was informed at that time of our past expeirience by our service manager.
At least we got the job, which was the main goal for us. Now, we will continue to fight for the customer. In this case we have two customers, the insurance company, and the owner. It is my goal to keep them both happy, if I can.
Thanks again.
MRETHICS
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 | Billy
Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 975 Southeast Oklahoma 
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2002-10-14 43798
If the customer knows the deal, then you've done your job. If it was my tractor, the wiring would be replaced also. I know what manure can do and will do later.
Billy ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-10-14 43801
I commend you for your effort for the customer. "Been there and done that" so for the record for a good customer I have gone to bat for them many times and gotten the work to be done right or I will refuse and then get to straighten out the problem later at some point and be less frustrated. Keep us informed as to how this potential night mare for you, your employees and customer work out. ....
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| karmakanic
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 5 NE Texas
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2002-10-14 43827
Tell the insurance adjuster this:
The reason electrical wiring is damanged beyound repair when it has been submerged is that the moisture seeps into the strands of the wiring inside the insulation. You cannot get it out. With the passage of time, it starts up the electrolysis process and corrodes everything. Electricity flowing through the wires accelerates the process.
The wiring must be replaced if the tractor was under water, even if it was fresh clean water. This includes all electrical guages, switches, ect., unless they can be completely disassembled and dried. If the tractor sits on the lot for any lenght of time while they try to make up their mind, the damage will already be done, and everything electrical will have to be replaced.
FWIW,
Dave
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| MRETHICS
Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 190 Star City, Indiana
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2002-10-15 43845
Here is an update on the situation.
All repairs except the wireing have been completed. The tractor looks and runs fine.
The customer is getting nervous, his 30 day rental expires Friday, and he needed an answer.
Our Service Manager, and myself, met with the Insured, the insured's Agent, and the Adjuster, late yesterday via a confrence call. All our diligance has payed off.
We have to order a few of the parts we now need to complete the job, and will not have it ready Friday.
To give us time to complete the repairs. I offered the Adjuster another 30 day rental, and alerted him that in our rental agreements, we issue credit if the tractor is turned in in less than 21 days. At that time, we deduct charges for each unused day, provideing the tractor has less than the maximum hours for the days of use. Judgeing by the customers past use, he should be below this number.
Adding another 30 day rental to the tab (probably less), and the complete repair estimate, we are now about 1/2 value of the tractor. (2000 model 4400 hydro, 430 FEL w/4 in 1 bucket, 483 hrs.) Total repair est. with rental fees comes to about $7400
The adjuster agreed. Now everyone is happy. He told us that some of our suggestions proved to him we were not just "padding" the bill. Which was his fear, I guess.
No arrests have been made yet, probably just a prank. Sombody had guts though. Pedals were in the Neutral position, cruise control was not locked, operator presence system on the seat was operational once cleaned and tested. The key was in the "off" position.
The tracks entering the lagoon, when found, ran from east to west, and the tractor was found farther from the edge than anyone thinks it would roll. Lagoon level had only dropped a foot or so when it was spotted by workers.
I dunno, somebody had some dirty cloths. Like I've said, we've seen tractors in lagoons before. But usualy failure to apply a parking break was the cause, and given the soft bottom of the pit, they only roll a few feet.
Thanks for all the help guys!!
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2002-10-15 43848
Get in touch with a company called "Water Out" (see link below) they developed a neat gizmo that can (and does) really suck, water that is. The insurance companies routinely use them for drying buildings after floods, fire related water damage, etc.
From experience I can tell you they are very good people. Their technology will dry all moisture out of the system, while it will not remove any residue, it will at least remove the moisture, which is most of the problem.
Best of luck. ....
Link: Water Out
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| Bob in NY
Join Date: Posts: 1
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2002-10-16 43861
As strange as this mat sound, you may want to try swimming pool chemicals they have all sorts of ph adjustment chems that include the removal of copper, alumunum, calcium, etc,etc,etc. They have the capability to make your water unsafe as a chemical dump, or safe enough to drink. Muriatic Acid is one agent within that arsenal, If you want to use an acid bath. Ask your local pool dealer, I'll bet he can solve your dilemma ....
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| Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2002-10-16 43868
The damage that can be done to a tractor after it has been submerged in a lagoon is not an easy fix. It isn't how the tractor looks that counts as it is for it's performance years down the road. When you look at the pumps that are used to drain this liquid even the best care still has them rusting away. Removal at the end of the day helps with a rinse on these pumps, at least on the out side. There is still this fine liquid left in little areas that don't get rinsed properly and that is where the rust sets in. It will often take close to a year for maybe the ignition switch to fail, than the gas gauge will start acting up, the oil pressure gauge and so on. You can get all the water out, but can you get out the damage done from being in the lagoon for a week. In the past it has proven that just a good bath doesn't work. We have even seen the paint come off after a year much less the rest of the system. All oils and fluids should be flushed within the next week of operating as there will be some residues left from cleaning and they could start premature rust inside the transmission housings the same as the gauges and all switches. Changing these parts clear the dealer of later being told he didn't go far enough when those parts fail. There may be some ways to stabilize the effects of the lagoon but I would have to see some old proof before I would try something new on my customers that I don't know for sure works as good as installing new. Time is also a consideration when we are working on a tractor. We can put a number to time and the price of gauges and harnesses. We know that it works and all will be happy with the results. ....
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