Go Bottomhorse power is a horse
 | kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina 
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2005-12-01 120181
I thought I had posted this last week but am findin my lap top on dial up is not swift.
A lot of talk here is on horsepower. So my question is how many horsepower is a horse?
Does a 10 HP Briggs equal 10 grass eating horses?
How does HP compare from hyd., to electric to gas?
Is HP always the same as a foot or does it vary with what is being measured as does guage?
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 | DenisS
Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 367 NJ 
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2005-12-01 120189
To start off:
In fourteen hundred and ninety-two
Columbus sailed the ocean blue.
Divide that son-of-a-gun by two
And that's how many watts there are in a horsepower.
(that would be 746)
But for the rest of it (much like with steel there are different horse powers (who would have thought?)) here is a good link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_power#Horsepower_.28hp.29 ....
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 | Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 955 Central Iowa 
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2005-12-01 120201
The term horsepower originated with James Watt, who determined by experiment that a horse could do 33,000 foot-pounds of work a minute in drawing coal from a coal pit.
Found the above. It truely is based on how much work a horse could actually perform. It is considered a constant, meaning it doesn't change depending on situations. Meaning 1 hp of work is 1 hp of work despite what/who is doing the work. ....
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 | shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2005-12-01 120208
I need to send my wife to the store for a box of 0.2 HP bulbs for the shop. ....
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 | Art White
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 6898 Waterville New York
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2005-12-01 120245
To imagine that the bore times the stroke times times a multiplier is supposed to give you the horsepower of an engine!!!!! ....
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 | DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-12-01 120252
I thought they used those little Shetland ponies in the coal mines.
I wonder how much horsepower one of those big Budweiser guys produce?
And furthermore, since Watt discovered Wattage,
and Ohm figured out Ohm's,
and Ampere found Amps,
and Voltaire did the Volt thing.......
So why don't we have Franklin-ectricity?
Huh? ....
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 | ncrunch32
Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 762 Kingston, NY
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2005-12-02 120256
I think Franklin-icity might have been more about sexual prowess than getting work done! However - he did push that wheelbarrow through Philadelphia with his newspapers every morning. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2005-12-02 120259
If horsepower is horsepower then why does Northern Tool's catalog have a conversion formula and chart? It is amazing to me that a HP is not the same across electricity, hyd and gas engine.
Now to horses, you will not like this as I can not back it up, but it is my understanding what is suppose to be the average horse has about 12 horsepower. It was on some kind of horsepower at work show on tv. So I know it is true.
I do know that any one who has ever used horse or mule power will tell you a 3.5 horsepower gas engine is nothing compared to a single real horse. Much less 3.5 real horses. Remember the old stage coaches. Four and six horsepower? Wow!
If anyone has link to or has any idea on the Horsepower of the horse pass it own. Now, how much horsepower does an oxen have? I have no idea. But they pulled many a wago across this country. And what are oxen any way? ....
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| shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2005-12-02 120263
Some internet stuff:
"You also might be interested in the very interesting letter to Nature on
the horsepower from a horse. ( Nature v.364 p195 15 July 1993 ), they
calculated the various types of horsepower from a horse. In 1925
Collins and Caine measured peak powers of 12-14.9 hp for just a
few seconds. Youatt in 1826 said a draught horse should pull 10%
of its body weight at a rate of 2.3-3 miles/hr for a 10 hour working day
to maintain health and vigour. Collins and Caine agree, and that figure
is very similar to the 1hp derived by Watt in the 1780s by determining
from millwrights that a horse could walk around a 24ft diameter
mill whell at average of 2.5 times/minute for a day's work. He assumed
the horse exerted a tractive effort of 180 pound force, yielding a power
estimate of 33,929 ft-lbf min. In his blotting and calculation book, this
number was rounded to 33,000, thus producing the more familiar
550 ft-lbf sec definition. He needed the power estimate so he could
sell his rotary steam engines to replace horse gins, as annual payment
was based on number of horses replaced."
....
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 | Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-12-02 120264
First things first, horsepower is a measure of work, endurance and torque are completely different animals, pardon the pun. LOL.
As horses vary, so does the work they can accomplish. The term "one horsepower" is sort of subjective when you are talking about actual horses doing work. I have done much harness work with our Belgians over the years, and I put one of our experienced single horses up against a 40hp 4X4 CUT to drag something any day of the week, especially in close quarters or tough terrian. A log is merely a little step for a horse, it's quite an obstacle for a tire.
An Ox is not a breed, it is a term, used to define any member of the bovine family trained and used for work, in practice though they are usually castrated bulls.
This brings up a question though, if more than one 'box' is 'boxes' how come more than one 'ox' is not 'oxes' it is 'oxen' ??
Best of luck. ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-12-02 120266
I was going to AXE the same question.
I have two axen in the garage but I don't use them much since I got the hydraulic splitter.
....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2005-12-02 120273
You can take life very serious and boy some do. Follow some of the threads here like two others I have been in on hyd oil and pole barn breaker box and you will see what I mean. Then along comes someone with the ability to put it in presepective. It seems most people who can follow a horse or such with that grand view has a good prespective on life. The only to make it better is on a hot day with no breeze and an animal with a bad meal.
....
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| Iowafun
Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 955 Central Iowa
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2005-12-02 120274
For those who have used horses for till work, do you have to stop to let the horse add fertilizer or will they add fertilizer while in motion?
I don't know why, but I am truely interested in the answer. No wonder my wife calls me weird... ....
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| shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2005-12-02 120275
"First things first, horsepower is a measure of work, endurance and torque are completely different animals..."
Murf, I don't see your reasoning here. Work is defined as a force applied over some displacement (like pulling a sled). Replace force with torque and instead of displacement you produce some angle that is turned. Power is some amount of work over time so then has units Torque*angle per unit time. What's the discrepancy?
Dave ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-12-02 120277
Actually Ken, when you work a horse in traces you don't generally stand behind them, you stand off to one side or the other, what they are pulling is directly behind them. You are only right behind them if you are riding something, like a wagon or such.
Iowa, no they don't go while pulling or for that matter, even if they are walking period. The better trained animals will stop when they next reach the headlands, younger or not so well trained animals just stop mid-field or just wherever they feel like it for that matter.
Best of luck.
....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-12-02 120278
Dave, I think we're confusing "horsepower" the term that defines a unit of work, with "horsey power" which is what an Equine produces. LOL.
Seriously, what I meant was, horsepower is a subjective unit of measure that is extremely hard to thing to apply to a more fluid and variable source such a real horse. Likewise with torque, it is a subjective term.
Kinda like trying to measure the chicken flavour in chicken soup. LOL. Sorry, that was a term my grandfather used to use, I don't know why but it always struck me as funny.
Best of luck. ....
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 | yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1413 Northern Michigan 
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2005-12-02 120280
Iowafun:
I once read the book "The Arms of Krupp". The German Krupp family was the war machine during several world wars building steel, armor, armaments, pretty well everything. They were a gifted bunch. I read that some of them liked the smell of horse do-do and often had it brought in to their homes for fragrance.
Sounds like you may be one of those gifted kinda guys with special interests. Only kidding! To my knowledge, horses are kinda like a McDonalds drive through. It is only a slight pause if that!! ....
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 | Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2005-12-02 120283
I think what Murf was trying to say is that a draft horse will but out far more than 1 HP although not for extended periods of time. Kind of like the sprinter or dragster.
Mr. Watt tried to quantify the average amount of work a horse will out put steadily during a working day.
If you hooked a 1 HP motor to a winch there is no way you could tow a heavy log through the woods at the speed a horse does it. Although the horse will not be able to drag the log steadily all day long. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2005-12-02 120284
Now, Murph has high price and well trained horses. I was raised with mules. I have walked directly behind (break that apart and you get the full meaning) a mule in traces while plowing corn. Yes I have had a mule to fertlizer in the travel mode. (you learn to pay attention while barefooted) I don't remember them irrigating in that mode though. They are also very good at fumigating in travel mode. Guess they were multipurose machines after all.
Now with a log or such being pulled by one, yes I would agree you are normally to a side or in danger. Probably no more dangerous in riding those logs (yes I have) than those guys who ride them on flumes. Give me the mule speed over flume speed. Yes have riden on wagon with same horse power.
Now, I realize mules are only 50% horse. But then I never had a mule run head long into a tree like my warm blood did. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-12-02 120289
Yooper, it's not quite that bad, a healthy horse on a proper diet and adequate exercise produces something more the consistancy of say moist dirt. It will keep it's shape on landing, but just barely.
Peters, you nailed it indeed! To me a 'definition' like horsepower is the equivalent of a snapshot, a reflection of only a split second in time, not a prolonged period. Although the comment about dragging a log is a little misleading, don't forget, the horse only skids a log one way, they walk back to the landing empty, that is a rest to them. Skidding like that can be done sunrise to sunset with a few food & water breaks, no problem.
Ken, mules are very different in some ways, but certainly not all. While I can't say I was ever silly enough to ride a log under tow, I have certainly done more than my share of doubletree 'surfing'. A doubletree, BTW, for those who don't know, is a crossbar between or behind two horses in harness from which something is pulled, like a log. After you unhook from the log, you put the chains & tongs over your shoulder and see if you can ride the bar all the way back to the landing. Snow makes this easier, but also makes it harder to see anything lurking below.
Don't think I'd try it anymore though, I don't bounce nearly as well as I used to. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2005-12-02 120290
Murf,
I probably did very little riding on logs as we really did very little pulling them.
As to not bouncing as good now, do you mean back up? I have since loosing that back up bounce decide to wrap myself in a large soft encloser to protect me. Some call it fat, I call it insulation from bumps.
You know regardless of your experiences in a lot of this I hope you have each had a laugh or two in thinking of what has been posted or your own experiences. I wonder what our children and grandchildren have lost by not having their hands on such. Whether oxen, mules, horse or axes.
Now, some still live like Paul Bynun and Blue Babe did but not as many as grew up that way. ....
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| Peters
Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3034 Northern AL
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2005-12-02 120291
Murf, the marvel of muscles versus our mechanical marvels is still difficult to grasp. The force of the horse as it leans into the traces to start a large log (2000 lb)moving for say the first 20 feet or length of the log could be 33,000 ft lbs of work in 10 seconds. Meaning the horse is actually out putting 10 or more HP in that short time. Mechanically you might need a 40 HP tractor or more to start and drag the log through the trees. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2005-12-05 120405
One part of my orginal questions has not been adressed by anyone or I missed it.
Why is not a horse power which is suppose to be a measure the same between an gas engine, a hydraulic motor or and electric motor?
Now, I am baseing this upon Northern Tools cataglog which has a comparions between each. Why is a horsepower not the same with each? There should be no variance to me.
Ken T. ....
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| hardwood
Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3583 iowa
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2005-12-05 120407
kthompson, I've allways had the same question. I'm sure that my answer is wrong, but here goes. My thought has been that whatever is producing the horsepower whether it be a horse, gas engine, electric, or hydraulic could produce the given horsepower with out in the case of a horse stoping to rest, a gas engine running at it's absolute max till it destroyed it's self, or at what level of each ones max is the horsepower rated? Frank. ....
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| shortmagnum
Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 848 Wisconsin
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2005-12-05 120415
I'll take a stab at the electric motor conversion. In a DC motor it's easy to calculate power as Voltage*Amps because the Voltage is constant. But in AC current you only have peak voltage for a very short time because the Voltage is sinusoidal. A more realistic value for power calculation is the root mean square or RMS Voltage which is quite a bit less than the peak-to-peak value. So the HP output of an AC motor is less than the line Voltage times Amps. Three-phase current is good for electric motors because it spreads these Voltage peaks out in time so there is less "ripple" in the signal and one of the phases is always near peak.
Dave ....
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| DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000 Posts: 5116 Northern Nevada
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2005-12-05 120419
"Voltage is sinusoid".
Until now, I would have thought that was a medical term.
I think everything is on a different scale because the various inventors worked at different periods of history with different languages and cultures, some in metric and some in inches and all independently of each other. ....
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| Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7249 Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada
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2005-12-05 120421
Because "horsepower" and "power" are not the same thing at all, the resulting 'horsepower ratings' are also very different.
Horsepower is a blended or averaged term, it is the result of RPM, times Torque, and then divided by a factor, in this case 5,252.
As a result of this blending, a pair of engines, one gas, one electric, can produce very different types of "power" but still have exactly the same amount of "horsepower".
As an example, to demonstrtate this a little better, if an elctric motor runs at 1,750rpm, and produces 30 ft/lbs of torque, and a gas engine was runs at 3,500rpm, but produces only 15 ft/lbs of torque, they are both rated at 10hp. But which one do you want to put on a high load application?
It's sort of like the difference between a weed-whacker and a big bore one cylinder 4 stroke, both are rated at the same 'horsepower' but which one makes more grunt?
Best of luck. ....
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 | beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 1333 Michigan
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2005-12-05 120474
Not sure this will help, but horsepower is a measure of "Power", whick tecnically is the time it takes to get a unit of "work" done. "Work" is defined as force x distance, or can be translated to torque ( Force x Moment arm or ft-lbs ), or joules, etc.. When you look at the conversions in Northern tool, there are conversions between the different types of motors because the relationship between torque and time is not the same for all of them, or said a different way, they achieve maximum torque at different places on the performace curve. As Murf mentioned, they operate at different RPMs, therefore their rated torque is at different RPMs, or the time depenmdant rate at which they get work done is different. The relationship between torque and horsepower is not the same for each type of engine, or motor (they are all technically engines). They are all capable of producing the same power, but don't operate at the same efficiency doing it.
1 horsepower equals 550 foot-pounds/second. A 5 horse engine can do the same work as a 30 horse engine, but not in the same amount of time. The conversion rates in Nortehrn are a guide within a range of motors, but not a direct conversion for all engines.
Clear as mud now. ....
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| kthompson
Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 5275 South Carolina
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2005-12-06 120520
I am not sure how much valuable stuff I have learned but I have learned some good stuff. Part of this shows how hard it is to engineer something in the field.
As to another thread about our soldiers, maybe we should ask congress to handle the horsepower issue and let our soldiers handle the war. No, it would really be a mess then. ....
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