No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II: Yanmar Tractors  -- Other Tractor Brands Discussion Forum and Review No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II: Yanmar Tractors -- Other Tractor Brands Discussion Forum

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 02-25-2003, 20:50 Post: 50054
DennisCTB

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 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

Guys I think I will need a staff of legal aids to sift thru all of this dialogue.

Thanks Mark, DavesTractor, Gregg, Doc and others for putting so much effort into this exchange.

I am going to start a new thread on this and call it No More Yanmar Parts -- Part II.

I would like each of you to put the readers digest version into the new thread, of your thoughts on the topic. We need to distill all this down so we can get to what we all agree on.

DennisCTB
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 02-25-2003, 21:54 Post: 50063
DavesTractor



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 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

Dennis,

Thank you for trying to give this thread a fresh start, but I prefer bringing it to a friendly end. As I stated in an earlier post, I will respectively decline to go further with this subject. It started out looking like a reasonable question, but was actually bait to start a grey market bashing frenzy.

If the main authors of this thread were to re-read it all, I suspect we would all no doubt want to rebut points made by others. I certainly do, but to what end? To say it all again in a different fashion will likely bring us back to the same point.

It's your call, but that is my suggestion.

By the way, if this forum prefers not to be friendly to the grey market dealers or owners, just let us know. There are other places to go. I suspect though, that most members are actually friendly and accepting of us and we are only dealing with a vocal minority with a burr under their saddle.






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 02-25-2003, 22:36 Post: 50068
Grey Market Supporter
2003-02-25 00:00:00
Post: 50068
 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

Kudos to Dave for running a honest business and knowing how to get it done! I have been to his place and believe me it is very well ran, clean machines and a straightforward approach to sales and service.

I have no idea what the future of Grey Market Tractors will be, nobody does, but they are still a great value and really well built tractors. Many cross over very nicely to some domestic models.

I have had a few parts issues and was able to work through them by taking a hard part to the local machine shop and having something fabricated. I have also done some interesting fabricating myself on these tractors and have yet to run across something that could not be fixed properly. I am not talking about hack jobs here either, lets face it, if someone manufactured it in Japan or anywhere else it surely can be reproduced. Often the part could be fabricated at the machine shop for less than the cost of ordering it from Japan.

As far as safety on these machines or any other tractor for the matter, that issue belongs to the operator. If one had a yanmar 1300 and sat it side by side with a U.S. Yanmar 155, there is virtually no difference in the design and safety features, therefor the argument that grey tractors are made completely different than the domestic models is hogwash. Too many of them are direct or nearly direct crosses. A friend of mine bought a brand new Yanmar here in the good old USA in 1980. It has a PTO shield (I have never seen a grey that did not have a PTO shield) and no ROPS or seatbelt. So for those that argue the greys are less safe than domestic tractors, show me the diffenence.

Finally, if the greys stopped being imported to the USA it will not be because there is a lack of parts or they are unsafe, it will be because the BIG Domestic Tractor companies will lobby the right people so they can continue to fleece the average joe who needs to muck out his horse stall. The price differnce is just too great between the new tractors and the greys, given the features and reliability of the greys, that it must be doing some financial harm to the big companies. Instead of whining about it they should go back to their roots in business and become more competative instead of trying to monopolize the market!

I'm off my soapbox now, good luck to all and lets hope free trade will prosper.






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 02-25-2003, 23:26 Post: 50071
lsheaffer



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 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

I have to side with Dave. A few of my own comments.

1.Many of the grey tractors met US saftey requirements when they were manufactured.

2.A ROPS for a tractor that didn't have a OEM designed one would be fairly expensive due to the testing that would be required to be OSHA approved. It doesn't matter if it is grey or domestic.

3. There is no requirement to equip used tractors with ROPS.

4.There are unscroupulous individauls & companies that turn back hour meters. Mainly the so called factory reconditioned ones. The Japanese do not put a lot of hours on a tractor. 500 -1000 hours on a 20 year old tractor is very common. When a farmer only has a couple of acres it is hard to put a lot of hours on a tractor.

5.I think there a lot more than 2 or 3 honest grey market dealers in the US. I don't care what you are in the market for there are good dealers & bad ones. To lump them all in to one category is grossly wrong & I resent the accusation that since I deal in grey market tractors that I must be a crook.

6.The main reason most people don't deal in parts for other than their own customers is that it takes alot of time for the small return. There seem to be a lot of parts price shoppers, which consume alot of time with no sales.

7. As to there being no more grey market tractors being inported , I think that is wishful thinking & a scare tactic.

8. As to the parts situation. The Yanmar decision puts Yanmar on the same playing field as the other brands. You could never order a grey market part from Mitsubishi. Thousands of them have been imported & grey parts have had to be ordered from Japan for years.

9.As to "the fact is that these tractors just weren't meant for stupid, letigious minded Americans" can very easily apply to old farm tractors. I grew up on a farm & still farm. The tractors from the 40's & 50's are a whole lot more dangerous than the grey market tractors. I don't see anyone trying to prevent stupid, letigious minded Americans from purchasing them.

There is alot more I could say, but I've wasted enough time on this topic.I feel the negative grey market posters are making some big assumptions based on a lack of knowledge about the used tractor situation & greys in particular. This will be my only post on this subject thread, so you can spread more falacies without fear of a rebutal by me.






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 02-26-2003, 06:05 Post: 50077
DennisCTB

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 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

Dave:

TractorPoint has a long standing history as being open to Grey Market Tractors, as well as New and Used Dealers. And I would like to thank you personally for helping people on the Board since you became a TractorPoint member. Keep helping us out!

Leonard:

You have been our "outstanding Grey Market dealer" for about 5 years now. Thanks for the hundreds of timely and thoughtful comments in which you have gone out of the way to help TractorPoint members with issues they have presented here.

DennisCTB
TractorPoint






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 02-26-2003, 06:58 Post: 50082
marklugo



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 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

Dave and Leornard,
Yes, there are some grey market tractors out there that may meet some of the standards. But the fact is, there are ASAE standards and OSHA requirements for things such as tow bar height 3 point lift demensions, engine noise and too many other things that you wouldn't be able to list here. By stating that most tractors you see or sell have these, you are inadvertently admitting that there are some that don't. It is these tractors that don't that will get you into trouble. As far as parts go tell me if you can still get things like cylinder liners for these old YM 1700's. There are many parts obsoleted. You compare these tractors to their contemporaries. You can still get about any part you can name for a 2600,3600 Ford,30 series JD, 84 series IH, and 135 and its Massey. This is not true with Grey market. If you want to openly discuss your parts distribution system, lets! Yanmar openly refuses to sell Grey Market parts. Unless you have figured out a way to trick Yanmar, then thats out. Ethically, should you lie to a company that doesn't wish to sell to you to get them to sell? Ok, Yanmar importers have"sources" in Japan. Many cases, importers are relying on third party parts shipments. Is it ethical to tell someone you can get him parts when you have to rely upon your "connection" 5000 miles away? What about the people that would really depend upon these machines for their lively hood when you tell them it will be six weeks before you can get them parts. Is it even ethical to go ahead and sell to sell them tractors? How about the established practice of "fixing" tractors with used parts because the others aren't available or are too expensive. Some of these conditions did not exist in the past. They exist now. What are the self professed ethical dealers going to do?
Still the tractors have the little issue of ROPS protection. Many legitimate companies such as Kubota and Deere have programs actively going to retrofit their old tractors with ROPS. They will either subsidize the cost or provide them with as little cost as possible. The Greys don't or won't due to the fact that Yanmar feels these tractors are illegitimate. If you think this is a minor issue, you didn't know anyone that was killed by a rear(and most overturns are rear!) overturn.
As to lack of knowledge, I think that I have been doing this long enough now (18 years) and have worked greys as far back as 1987. I work with and around 5 dealers that sell in excess of 200 a year of these tractors and another 20 that sell 50 or more. Their experiences are convincing enough.

As far as Yanmar being a good tractor, It is. No doubt. But the best tractor in the world is no better than its dealer who can support it with parts and technical knowledge. We haven't even begun to address the technical side, but that is what this web-site is partly about.

Fireworks are fun, and many will sell them to you and say see the pretty little sparklers. But we have seen what innocent little sparklers did to nearly 100 people... Should we not view this market with a similar analogy?
Ban all fireworks? well I am not going to say that. Ban all grey market tractors, I won't say that either. However, with the increasing number of them out there, it is only a matter of time before the market self destructs.






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 02-26-2003, 08:18 Post: 50090
Misenplace

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 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

It really seems to me that there are several issues here trying to be molded into a single topic. From my perspective they are all seperate issues. I don't really think there should be any debate at all over who's welcome. Everyone should be. I also think we all clearly know and understand that there are good dealers and those who are not above board. There just isn't much to debate there. Many of the people who have spoke out on this topic, pro or con, are well liked and respected by others that use this forum. I don't see that changeing, and there's no reason it should. Are Yanmars good tractors ? I've never owned one. I've been very up front about that. Given the longstanding reputation that Yanmar has in the Diesel sector I am positive that they are good tractors. The base debate here was not safety or a whole host of other potential side bars. The main topic was parts availability. Given The serious nature of Current litigation, The stance of US customs and the International Trade Commission Not to mention the good folks who actually make the tractors, I see little room for speculation. I am sure there will always be parts available to some degree, How easily they will be obtained and how much they will cost is the unknown. All I can really say is for me that Yanmar did not represent a good choice for my needs. As far as safety is concerned, it will be a issue that continues to get melded with the importation ban on greys because it is the fiber that draws the attention of the powers that be. In my opinion they do represent a considerable health risk to buyers. I base that on the concept that a rough estimate has been given of 50% of all Grey market buyers are first time tractor owners. Most of theese folks are good hard working people like all of our neighbors and family. Yet the truth is that most of them don't know the south end of a tractor from the south end of a armadillo, poo from peanuts. But look we all had to start someplace. Someone above mentioned that there are a lot of other sites out there for greys. In recent weeks I spent numerous hours on those sites. Many have dealer listings. I tried to contact several dozen dealers who had pages that would pop up and say they were no longer selling greys for either ethical reasons or they could not supply there customers with parts. The most dissheartening thing I saw over and over were posts from first time buyers who had unkowingly purchased a grey and then went to a authorized dealer for parts only to get bounced out on their ear. Maybe they should have known better. But you still have to have a little empathy for the fellow who plops down 4k, that he's saved for years only to find out he's been duped. I previously said that I traveled to three states in the last month. Not ONE single dealer said now you know theese are grey market tractors, you have to get parts from me or even remotely tried to offer anything other than fluff in regards to parts, hours and all the pertinent questions that I asked. And yes, I made it very clear that I was a first time buyer. I do want to be clear here though so no one gets their rubarb rubbed the wrong way, To the best of my knowledge I never visited a dealership of anyone on this forum. There are good guys and bad but they no longer wear white or black hats. There has been a lot of attention given to ROPS and seat belts. There are other issues, 2pt hitches that have been converted to 3 pt and were never built to use implements that size. I saw several that were total hack jobs. No pto shields, no slip clutch, variable speed pto, Warning labels not present or in chineese as well as other differences that might vary from model to model. The real truth is that the folks who will have problems with theese issues are not the readers or participators of a forum like this untill after the fact. Weather you like greys or not, are pro or con, the fact is that theese tractors and the parts for them are going to stop comeing into the US in the very near future. At least as legal cargo. They were never built for the US, Never Intended for the US and the owners of the US trademarks on theese products have a legal, moral and fiduciary responsabilty to stop them from comeing into the US in the future.






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 02-26-2003, 08:40 Post: 50091
jimstractors



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 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

Hats off to Dave at DavesTractors and Len Sheaffer! Keep up the good work!
Jim






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 02-26-2003, 08:48 Post: 50092
Norm2001
2003-02-26 00:00:00
Post: 50092
 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

I can't help but wonder what attracts non-Yanmar owning, Yanmar bashers to a Yanmar forum. It must be some type of mental illness. As long as I have been following Yanmars I have never heard of anyone who had to junk their tractor because of a needed part. Any Yanmar owner knows, or should know, up front, that he needs to be a mechanic, and pretty self-reliant in finding parts. Yanmar owners also don't need big brother or "do-gooders" telling them how to operate their machinery. I personally have never seen any professional carpenter that uses the blade shield that came with his tablesaw, and I'll bet that their are more people killed from falling out of windows than from tractor roll-overs.
Norm






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 02-26-2003, 08:50 Post: 50093
DRankin



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 No More Parts for Yanmars -- Part II

MarkLugo, your view of the grey market situation is hard to square with what we know about free markets.

Short of a legislated ban on imported used tractors, I cannot imagine the market drying up or "self destructing".

Will someone initiate legislation based on safety concerns? Maybe, but as pointed out earlier, it will take a lot of tractors that have never left U.S. soil with them.
That ain't going to happen. Not here. Not heartland. Imagine the Gummint telling you to park or destroy your grandpa's John Deere A?

Parts: The free market will deliver the parts. With multiple tens of thousands of grey tractors out there already, someone will fill in the gaps. They always do. It is just a matter of price.

The cost may be quite a bit more, but I can't imagine prices being worse than what Deere charges us now for stuff still in production.

If the free market could not deliver obsolete or hard to find parts, then we wouldn't see Studebaker's and Willy's on the road anymore. But we do, and we still see Beech Staggerwings and P-51's cruising our sky's.

As far as tractor safety, you are preaching to the choir here. There are extensive threads in the archives relating to ballast, wheel weights, tilt meters, tire pressure, slope operation and the list goes on.

And some of us have already soiled our shorts in the tractor flipping business anyway. Maybe that is why I am always telling folks to check their ballast numbers and buy those wheel weights.

If you want to compete in this arena, sharpen you pencil and tell you customers about YOUR parts and service. Apathetic dealers and hugely inflated prices are responsible for this 'grey' markets existence.













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