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Slow Response Time for Tractor Point

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 280 The Great Pacific NorthWet, Olympia, WA
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2004-12-15          102327

Is it just me or is the download time really slowing down on this site? I have cable access and any other site I access loads as fast as I click on them. This site for the last 2 or 3 weeks seems to load very slowly. Sometimes 1-2 minutes to load or change screens.

Anybody else experiencing this?


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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-12-16          102328

Yes, I had to try 3-4 time to get it to open this morn.
I thought it was me? ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-12-16          102337

It doesn't seem to be any different up here in the Great White North of Canada than usual.

Maybe the frozen wires are slipperier so it loads faster here.

Best of luck. ....

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beagle
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-12-16          102338

Works OK here too, but Canada is south of us over here. Maybe that explains it. ....

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yooperpete
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-12-16          102340

Our satelite receiver system picks it up as quick as ever, that is when it works. They have trouble every now and then with hackers, etc. ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-12-16          102341

Ha! I have dial-up... running at 26.4 Kbps as we speak. The site is loading in 30 seconds for me. ....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-12-16          102343

Beagle, check your map again, even if you lived up in Soo Michigan there is still another 750++ miles of just Ontario north of you.

Canada's north coast is further away from you than Cuba is.

If you count the islands off our north coast then add another 1,000 miles on top of that again. If you went the same distance but heading south, as the northern most tip of Canada is north of you would be in Belize in Central America.


Canada is nearly 3,000 miles from north to south.

Only a VERY small portion of Ontario is south of you. ....

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beagle
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2004-12-16          102345

Great stuff Murf, can even add that Michigan has more coastline than the east coast of the US. But if I drive south from where I'm sitting, I'm in Canada. If they let me in :).

My family is from the Soo,.. Canada. That's north of here.

....

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Murf
Join Date: Dec 1999
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2004-12-16          102346

You're right on both counts, but to say "Canada is south of us over here" is misleading at best.

A very small portion of Canada lies south of you.

On a personal note I prefer the coast of Michigan over MOST of the east coast. We go across to the UP regularly.

Best of luck. ....

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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 194 Central Kentucky
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2004-12-16          102356

Back to the original post, I agree the site is slower. It has never been very fast. I have a T1 fiber connection and a high end laptop.

Time of day could cause some of the delay, but I usually access the site before 7:00am Eastern and its not any better in the morning that the afternoon. Dave ....

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brokenarrow
Join Date: Jan 2004
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2004-12-16          102383

mine has always been slow. Even the dnr site is faster. Good things sometimes take a bit to come though! ....

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2004-12-16          102403

Thanks to all that weighed in on the slow response time. I agree, this is a great site, but when it's as slow to respond as it has been, it gets a bit frustrating. Time of day does not seem to matter on my end. As I indicated I have absolutely no problem connecting to any other site at any time of day with my cable connections except this site.

Would it be possible for the site administrator to add his comments, solutions or observations to this issue? ....

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DennisCTB
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2004-12-17          102413

Hi Bvance,

I run this site and I am always concerned if someone has response time issues. I travel around the country a bit so I have a pretty good idea of normal response times.

From my office the new as posted page loads in about 4 seconds. At worst 7 on a T3 connection.

I have used dialup and the response time is slower but not that much. Generally very acceptable.

It is possible that there are too many hops in the path that your ISP/DSL/Cable provider is taking to get to the Tractorpoint host. Your provider also has ways of giving you seemingly great performance by caching popular sites like Yahoo thereby simulating great perforamnce, but on lower volume sites like Tractorpoint you have to make a full run to the server.

Try a dialup connection or go to the public library in your town and see what the response time is there, check what service they are using. Send me your ip address, go to the command prompt and type ipconfig /all to get it.

Try pinging Tractorpoint from the command prompt.

ping tractotpoint.com

Dennis
....

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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2004-12-17          102440

Dennis,
I pinged the tractorpoint site with a average time of 52ms. A similar ping to Yahoo had an average time of 2ms. A ping to my company server at another location had an average time of 1ms.

It takes me 3 seconds for the site to load, 8 seconds for the discussion boards to load and 8 seconds for a specific board to load.

I am using a T1 fiber connection. I will try the same test at home this weekend.

Regardless, this is an excellent site, keep up the good work. Dave. ....

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taheide
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 127 Capron IL
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2004-12-17          102442

6 meg wireless connection, sometimes slow, but most times normal as any other site, could be the number of users at one time posting or looking that can slow it down, it is a Forum board after all, servers do need to seek and search for each request. ....

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bvance
Join Date: Jul 2004
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2004-12-17          102460

Thanks Dennis for your comments and suggestions. I admit there's a lot I don't know about the internet.

I remember when microwave ovens first came out what a wonder it was to get a cup of hot water in one minute. Now it drives me crazy to wait that one minute to get a cup of hot water! Kind of the same thing with response times....8 seconds is now too long. My response times have been more acceptable the last couple of days so let's hope the gremlins are gone!

You have a great site with very knowledgable folks that I learn a lot from. Keep up the good work!

Brian ....

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Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 347 New York
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2004-12-17          102461

This might help a little and I'm on a cable modem with 3MBps down load, 1.5 upload

Pinging tractorpoint.com [64.33.9.55] with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 64.33.9.55: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=245
Reply from 64.33.9.55: bytes=32 time=40ms TTL=245
Reply from 64.33.9.55: bytes=32 time=29ms TTL=245
Reply from 64.33.9.55: bytes=32 time=30ms TTL=245

Ping statistics for 64.33.9.55:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 29ms, Maximum = 40ms, Average = 32ms
....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2004-12-17          102463

Holy Smoke.

I don't think I can attach meaning to anything in the last post.

Last time I heard about pinging was in the Hunt for Red October.

....

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grinder
Join Date: Oct 2003
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2004-12-18          102466

bvance,
How right you are!
Thanks for the reality check.
Dennis, I have dial up at 53.2kbps, and your site came
up in 2-3 sec. this morn. Sometimes slower,sometimes not at all. So what.
Still the sight I enjoy the most.
....

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Ducati996
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2004-12-18          102473

Sorry DRankin I should have left a footnote. The ping speed is based on a few things overall and out of your control mostly (ISP related and their path). While my ping speed is not excellent, its not bad so maybe its considered a medium response (32ms the lower that number the better)...other sites have higher Ping speeds but load up faster. I'm thinking its something else beside Ping speed only. I have a very fast cable modem, and it still takes some time for pages to load, in summary...

Ducati ....

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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2004-12-19          102555

Ducati, I question your cable modem speeds.

As you may know the industry standard on cable modem speeds are 128kbps, 256kbps, 512kbps, and 768kbps. The next level available is called a T1 at a speed of 1.544mbps, which is not available in most cable installations. However, when available, a T1 connection can cost up to $1000 dollars per month and require a mult-year contract, compared to about $25 per month for a 512kbps.

T1 connections are considered high data capacity and are point to point fiber using a 10/100 MB ethernet. These are usually business data connections.

A T1 is equivalent to a DS-1 (telephone) and 28 DS-1 equals one 0C -1. This stands for optical carrier at a speed of 51.84mbps, which is now called a SONET (telephone) system.

Ducati, if I am wrong, and you actualy have a T1 connection, I would like to know more about it. I have a T1 at my office and rarely exceed 800kbps. This is a point-to-point fiber. I can ping my business office server at another location in 1ms.

A footnote to those who aren't familar with internet connections:
1. A basic connection is a dialup on a telephone line.
2. The next higher is a DSL connection provided by your telephone carrier.
3. Then you move up to a cable modem as I just discussed.
4. Beyond a cable modem is a point-to-point optical fiber connection called ethernet.

Dave ....

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Archdean
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Posts: 279 Oklahoma
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2004-12-19          102559

Interesting discussion,
I use a wireless converter to a point about a mile away, then a relay to a tower approx 8 miles away and then inputed to a T1 line (probably installed by Alexander G Bell and his helper what's his name).

My point is this site is about as quick as any other to me!
Detail of my results:
25ms hsipaccess1.dallas1.level3.net
35ms hsipaccess1.newyork1.level3.net
38.6ms hsipaccess1.seattle1.level3.net

Please comment at your pleasure!


....

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taheide
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 127 Capron IL
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2004-12-20          102599

kyvette, your close, but not on target. 28 T1's ride on a T3 or what the carriers call an DS-3, not an OC-1. The common method of transporting a DS3 is over an OC-3, which is the smallest termination device they make. The next up would be an OC-12 which carries 12 DS-3's or split off into 6 DS-3's and 6 T1 breakout boxes, or 9 DS-3's and 3 T1 breakout boxes, or whats commonly referred to as Dmarks. The speed of a DS-3 is 44 Mbs, the speed you are referring to and the Sonet are the interoffice backbones of the carriers. In most situations with ISP's and T1 customers, what happens is the ISP orders a DS3 with the local telco, and that terminates from the closest CO to where they terminate the DS3. From there the ISP orders a DS1 to the customer and the telco will Mux the T1 onto the T3 at the ISP, from the CO it goes through the Telcos backbone, either over sonet, ds3, or in some cases directly onto copper. From the last Co to the customer, depending on distance, it leaves the CO and runs on copper. Rarely does it hit the customers prem with fiber, in those cases there is a lightspan that is located outside the customers location within the last mile and terminates over copper at that point. T1's are based on copper, T3s are based on fiber.

Now for cable systems, they can get as high as 10 meg downstream, but it is a shared system, meaning the more poeple downloading, the slower the connection will get, upstream is fixed at those speeds you posted. Cable systems use frequencies to transmit the internet data that ride along with the analog signals of the video stream, in most cases now, all the signals are moving to digital, so more bandwidth will be avaiable which will ease up the constraints of a shared system. The speeds which some people have seen who use cable are probably experiencing the shared bandwidth syndrome of too many users, since all shared service, whether its, dialup, cable, satalite, or wireless, always oversubscribe users on these systems, usually on a 4:1 ratio. Only those with a fixed T1 or T3 have full unshared bandwidth.

FYI, worked as a network engineer for an ISP for 7 years, and in fact gave a few SBC techs a lesson or two in T1 technology. :)

Hope I didnt cause more confusion, and helped some to better understand how broadband works. ....

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Ducati996
Join Date: Jul 2003
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2004-12-20          102609

kyvette,

The service is from Cablevision- Optimum online) they are known as one of the fastest providers. Its burstable like most modems and but it does fluctuate...please keep in mind we are not capped at 128Kbps, like most of the other providers. Benchmarks have been set from all test sites as well as results.
Sounds like your fiber connection isnt a true full Internet T1..You probably have your voice lines sharing the T1 connection (i.e Bundled service). You can get DSL with better speeds, and for a lot less money (if in the area).
Cable modem service is known for its burstable service and speeds, and certainly is superior in most cases over DSL.

I'm in the telcom & Integrator industry (lots and lots of experience) and sell ciruits domestically as well as Internationally...your definition of a T1 is a little off. Not all demarcs are fiber and actually most of them are over copper with a synchronous connection.

Ducati

....

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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2004-12-20          102613

Ducati and Taheide,
I should have known that somewhere on this board there would be somebody with telecommunications experience and I have just enough to be dangerous.

A couple of comments. Taheide, I think we both agree a T1 is 1.544mbps and is equivalent to a DS-1. Twenty eight T1 and/or DS-1 equal 44.763mbps. My understanding, in communication tech language, a DS-1 is 24 non synchronous channels of 64kbps. The T1 is a more common industry standard and equates to the OC-1 as 44.763mbps + 7.104mbps overhead equaling the 51.840mbps.

Generally, for T1 connections a portion can be run over copper, usually, a twisted Cat-5. However, Cat-5 is for short runs with a 300 meter limitation. For higher capacity data transmission it requires point-to-point fiber.

Relating to cable modem speeds, I didn't realize these could be adjusted by the service provider and in a lot of cases you have a non synchronous connection, where the download speed maybe higher than the upload speed.

As I said previously I have a little experience with fiber and telecommunications, but apparently not enough. Thanks for your input. Dave ....

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taheide
Join Date: Oct 2004
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2004-12-20          102623

Your good for the most part, except I think the overhead part you are thinking of is related to the voice portion from the early days when each channel needed a seperate carrier of 8kb for the encoding, but these days, most DS1's are Muxed onto DS3's and the "overhead" has been relegated to the actual devices that do the Multiplexing. As for the T1 cabling, it can run point to point over copper for many miles, in fact it can run from one location to another that is 50 miles away if needed. The limitation depending on what type of T1 is being installed, be it HDSL2, HDSL4, etc, the # being the type of wire it runs on. Lets take HDSL4, it runs over 2 pair of copper, with a limitation of 5000 feet, in between these limitations of the run there are what are called doublers or repeaters that boost the signal much in the same way a switch or hub does on an ethernet run. So on a full copper run of say 15,000 feet, there will be 2 pair of copper and 3 repeaters/doublers. One pair is the transmit tip and ring, the other is the recieve tip and ring. A T1 is a fully synchronis circuit, it can send and recieve at 1.54Mbps for a full duplex speed of ~3mbps. An HDSL2 runs over 1 pair of copper, and is also full duplex, it has a transmit and a receive wire, bit no tip and ring, instead its a fully digital signal that is encoded and decoded from the SmartJack to the first CO, or LightSpan. When working with SBC, I found they prefer the 4 wire over the 2 wire because if there are any issues with the copper the 2 wire tends to fail.
Here is a link for a more detailed write up on T1's.

http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid7_gci213096,00.html

Another link is below. ....


Link:   T1 explained

 
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taheide
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2004-12-20          102626

Here is an ultimate link specifying what does what.

Kyvette, I think I see what you were saying, but I think you got the two confused. An OC1 is SONET, T1's are muxed onto SONET, but they are used for the Telcos backbone, so they can run many channels over a single strand of fiber easily, the overhead you are referring to is the clocking and VTs needed for DS1's to run over SONET. The majority of the overhead is from muxing the DS3 onto the OC1. In most cases though the end receiver, the ISP or customer runs the Mux off a DS3, not the SONET, only the Telcos do anything with the SONET, except in the rare cases of a major customer such as AOL, or maybe Motorola. In those cases they would purchase fiber from a carrier, called Dark Fiber and implement their own equipment.

Note: I edited the information after doing some further researh into SONET, I found there are other uses other than for the main backbone. ....


Link:   speeds

 
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kyvette
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2004-12-22          102721

Taheide,
Thanks for the info and web links, I will check them out. My exposure to T1's, SONET, etc is communications between electrical substations and SCADA dispatching centers.

SCADA stands for Supervisory Control And Data Acquisition. This is computer monitoring and control systems for the electric utility industry.

At present we use a communication protocol called DNP3 and communicate over a 24ct single mode fiber using 10/100mbps Ethernet. Some of our runs are home runs, where others access a SONET hub or a splice enclosure for transmission back to the dispatching center.

Have a Merry Christmas and thanks. Dave ....

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taheide
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2004-12-23          102784

Sounds like fun :). I have 7 years of internet experience, and now work on a different part of internet, VOIP. Today I go for my CCNA, so wish me luck!


A CCNA with a tractor, a dangerous combination, mowing at the speed of broadband! ....

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oneace
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2004-12-23          102786

I have had DSL and now have cable. The cable is way faster then the DSL every was. The worst day for cable is still better then the best day for DSL. ....

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taheide
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2004-12-23          102832

wait til you try 10 meg wireless, it BLOWS cable away! ....

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bvance
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2004-12-23          102844

I started this thread with a concern of slow response time and now as some threads sometimes do, it has taken on a life of it's own with interesting but unrelated issues.

I feel badly for Dennis the administrator of this site because when everyone posts to this thread the topic of "slow response time...." appears and give TPC a bad image. I rec'd a good response from Dennis and I would like to see this thread die a decent death!

May I make a suggestion? If those posting as to cable speed vs. wireless etc. and all of the interesting technogeek stuff that very few folks on this earth would understand much less care about, start a seperate thread and give Dennis a break?

I hesitated even to post this message, but let's hope this is the last post to this thread.

Merry Christmas to All!
Brian ....

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oneace
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2004-12-23          102857

NOt the last one yet.

I have tried 10meg it is awsome. ....

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taheide
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2004-12-27          103048

To Bvance, most of what was said, directly relates to this thread you started. Speed on the internet directly relates to the speed one can pull down a website, You may have a high speed pipe running from your home, but the upstream your provider has could get clogged, therefore some sites like this one can show performance issues that not everyone can see, hence the discussion of T1's and others. I know everyone has seen cable internet commercials and how they brag about outperforming dialup and DSL, and most people fall for it and wonder why sites become slow. So in closing, there is a 99% chance that nothing at all was wrong with this site, and instead you experienced a network bottleneck somewhere between the server this site resides on and your PC where you were viewing it. ....

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rman476
Join Date: Dec 2004
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2004-12-28          103083

I am new to the site but thought the load time was very slow for my cable connection. Very much slower than that "other" tractor site I belong to. ....

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kyvette
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2004-12-29          103127

Bvance, this site has stayed on the subject fairly well as opposed to most sites. It is all comupter/internet related. I bet you someone out there has learned something useful on this thread. Dave
....

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taheide
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2004-12-29          103148

I know I did, I thought I knew it all about SONET, but since I had questioned it, I went and looked it up, and now I know more about SONET than I need to. ;) ....

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millers1
Join Date: Apr 2004
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2005-01-11          103973

Yes.. even with high speed connection... this site's server seems slower than usual. Maybe something's going on with the server? ....

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dklopfenstein
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Posts: 125 Southern Indiana
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2005-01-11          104049

Doesn't this just make all those little problems with a tractor seem so easy to solve. I think I'll keep my advice to using a set of wrenches, a drill, welder, and a grinder...there is just something about things I can see, touch, create, and DRIVE. "Thank-you" to all who know about the technology that we all benefit from. ....

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kyvette
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 194 Central Kentucky
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster  View my Photos  Pics

2005-01-12          104056

dklopfenstien
Our ramblings about SONET and T1's didn't scratch the surface, this subject gets complicated quick. I will retire in a few years and don't spend the time trying to keep up with technology, like I did a few years ago. I hire young computer gurus, to deal with these issues.

There is a lot to be said for the simple things like seat time on your tractor. Dave ....

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taheide
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 127 Capron IL
TractorPoint Premium Member -- 5 Tractors = Very Frequent Poster

2005-01-13          104140

The Geeks shall inherit the earth. And yes working on, around, and with the tractors are so much simpilar. ....

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