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CORNROW
Join Date: Apr 2006
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2006-04-15          127708

Hello all, I've got a question for anyone who has dealt with a bouncy trailer. I recently purchased an 18 ft trailer with 5k axles. The thing works great when I have a little load on it, but when I pull it around empty, it jars my truck quite a bit. So I was thinking about having the tires balanced, or is this problem caused by stiff suspencion? If you have dealt with this, please let me know what you did? Thanks.

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earthwrks
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2006-04-15          127714

Are you using a 1/2 ton to pull it? If yes, what you are likely feeling is a. the truck frame flexing or b. the frame and cab mounting bushings are too soft (for this application) and the cab is moving up and down--not much you should/could do about this.
Jarring won't be cured by balancing the tires, though that should be done anyway to reduce vibration and improve tire wear. The jarring may be reduced by the type of tire you are using. High-pressure tires can be very rough riding (mine are 16" light truck tires rated at 90 PSI); taller tires will offer a better ride too. Type of tire also---bias versus radial. I wouldn't consider using passenger car tire which when loaded are more apt to allow fishtailing since the sidewalls allow more side-to-side squirm. ....

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harvey
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2006-04-15          127715

Most of the pounding problem is from the lack of shocks. There is really nothings to control the pounding of the suspension except for a load.

About the only way around it is to slow down to minimize the pounding.

All my trailers act like that also, tandem and single, I've seen my single bounce 2' in the air from an unseen pothole. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-04-15          127735

Another thought: use a weight distributing hitch. Back in the days when I had smaller trucks and trailers it was a perfect solution to not buying bigger and better. These will only work on bumper-tow units. ....

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SG8NUC
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2006-04-15          127743

What ply tires are you running? example-- some 10ply tires use 100psi. When running car tires with a full load I pump the tires up to 40 or 45 psi. If I dont return them to 30psi the trailor will bounce empty.


Just my Idea Good luck ....

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DRankin
Join Date: Jan 2000
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2006-04-16          127761

I agree.... put some flab in the tires when running empty and that should keep things on the ground.

But then you have to have a way to pump them back up when you have a load. Gas stations don't always have compressed air available these days and when they do they charge you for the service. A 12 volt compressor will make the required pressure but they are very slow. ....

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CORNROW
Join Date: Apr 2006
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2006-04-16          127790

I checked the tires and it looks that they are 6 ply tread, 4 ply wall. Max range is at 65lbs, so I will try the suggestion of running them lower when empty. I do have an air compressor, so I could take care of the needed air when I'm ready to tow. Yes, one of the compressors is the portable type and it does take a while.

I have also tried the weight distribution hitch. Use it every time I am in tow, but I have learned to take the spring arms off when trailer is empty. They just make the problem worse.

The truck is an F150. I know it weighs in at around 5K. Not that matters much, a smaller 13 foot single axle sport trailer I have can be felt behind it at times, so maybe it is just suspension. I might waste the money on having the tires balanced anyway. I'd like to see if it makes any difference at all. That with lowering the pressure might.?? ....

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wingwiper
Join Date: Jun 2004
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2006-04-17          127799

Cornrow

I think the idea about deflating the tires a tad is the best.
I will add that you want a straight and level line from the back of the hitch thru te trailer. You do NOt want the trailer tilting upwards or downwards. I am taking it as a Class 4 and not a 5th wheel or Goose neck. If it is a Class IV then you can obtain a hitch that comes out and drops etc to help enable the straight line.
GoodLuck ....

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Murf
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2006-04-17          127831

If you have an adjustable ball mount or coupler on the trailer crank it up.

Raising the height of the tongue will go al long way to smoothing out those bumps also. If the trailer is flat and level, the springs force the tire to go straight up to absorb a bump, but if you raise the tongue, the wheel can move up and back (because the angle of attack changed) to absorb the impact. This is often all that is needed.

Best of luck. ....

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earthwrks
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2006-04-17          127843

I didn't see anything mentioned about what type of axles spring set up you have. You might have one of four types that I know of and have used. The roughest riding set up is two separate axles each hung from the frame with no mechanical connection to each other to offer oscillation as one wheel at a time raise and lowers. The next one is (I prefer) "tandem equalizers" which effectively joins the rear of the front spring and front of the rear spring to a pivot (which looks like an inverted "t") that will allow the trailer axles to go up and down together simultaneously thus the equalization with a minimal amount of bounce trailer jouncing. The other type is a "slipper spring" which tends to be stronger than the "t" equalizers, rides rougher when unloaded but works great when loaded. It also noisey as the spring is allowed to jump around in the slipper as the spring can slip in and out of the equalizer. The last type is rubber torsion which has no spring per se but has rubber rods encased in an axle tube in which the axle tries to rotate or totorque against but can't. They are marketed as riding better than a spring axles but I have them on my 24' enclosed car hauler and don't like them at all. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-17          127847


Having a trailer that is not level will cause it to fish all over the road and may cause the driver to lose control.
Loading a trialer is also critical because of this factor, if the weight is too far to the front which causes a sag or tilt in the front you have danger, same if there is too much weight to the rear. ALWAYS maintain a level trailer and NEVER no more than 10 to 15% of the Total Trailer weight on the Class IV ball.
....

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Murf
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2006-04-17          127851

"Having a trailer that is not level will cause it to fish all over the road and may cause the driver to lose control."

Care to explain the logic behind that statement.

Sway is caused primarily by a lack of tongue weight, raising the tongue by even one foot would cause (on an standard 18' trailer) about the same weight reduction on the tongue as a seagull having a good dump on the back of it would cause.

Best of luck. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-17          127857

Murf

Class IV trailer tongue weight here in the states should never exceed 15% of the GTW. If your trailer is at the max of 10,000 pounds for a Class IV, your tongue weight should not exceed, under any circumstances 1500 pounds and then you better have stabilzer bars, built up springs and weight-distributing hitch, actually when the tongue weight exceeds 500 pounds a weight-distributing hitch is recomneded. Any trailer over 5000 pounds should be dual axle. Vehicle pitch will take control away from the operator. Page 5 of the Dodge Towing Guide. Pitch causes the weight to be put unequally on different axles. too much weight to the front of the trailer will put too much weight on the back of the truck and thus, raise the front of the truck and put unecessary weight on bearings, springs etc of the trucks rear axle, this can cause uncontrollable sway of the trailer and loss of steering traction for the truck. Too much weight to the rear of the trailer takes the weight off of the ball and cause the rear of the truck to lift. Ball weight should never be less than 10% or more than 15% on a Class IV, if the ball weiegh is decreased it causes the truck to lift in the rear and lose traction, bumps will mulitply this loss and may cause loss of control of vehicle. If you are going to give advice to raise the ball, that is up to you. I give adivce I know is SAFE and correct. a proper loaded trailer is 60% in front of the trailer axle, 40% to the rear. should be level. load should be balanced from side to side. Tongue weight should not be less than 10% of the gross trailer weight nor should it exceed more than 15%. to determine tongue weight try this. king pins can go to 25%. Place a board over a piece of pipe on a household scale and a piece of pipe on a brick. Place the trailer tongue on the board two feet from the center of the scale and one foot from the center of the brick. Take the scale reading and multiply by three, that will equal the tongue weight.
I suggest anyone who plans on towing to either go to the dealer where their truck came from and ask to view the towing guides or you can stop at your local DMV and obtain the same. What they do in Canada, I have no idea. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-17          127859

I forgot to add,
You will have far greater success with backing up accuracy if the trailer is level than if it has a pitch, either up or down. Try it at home with a trailer and your tractor.
....

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Art White
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2006-04-17          127860

Here with the farm machinery as long as the rear bumper caster wheels aren't touching when the jack comes down we go! I do stress 5 mile an hour increases to see what speed is the max available but sometimes thats more then the difference between clean and brown underwear. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-17          127862

Art


I hear ya.... I hate the vehicles that bend in the middle. I had a trailer come right up along beside me once, I still had about 5 miles of Snowy mountain left to go down and the ole rule of the truckers thumb was step on the gas to get the trailer back behind you. LOL, when the pucker factor is whistling and everything says BRAKE, whew! I just got an adreline high thinking about it again. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-17          127863

Art

I use to load trailers with Ordnance in the Marines. We use to haul bombs (500 pound MK 82s, 6 to a pallet) from the dump to the flight line some 8 miles away. We hauled missles, small arm ammo, artillery rounds etc and we would sometimes have five trailers hooked up to one an another behind the ole MJ-deuce. I will tell you one thing, when they weren't loaded right you would know it real quick. ....

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Murf
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2006-04-17          127864

Ah see, there's the problem, the question was "How do I stop my EMPTY trailer from bouncing around so much?".

The devil lives in the details, the right answer to the wrong question is still wrong.....

Best of luck. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-17          127869

Murf

Have you got a problem with me? Have I offended you or soemthing?
Your reply was a very dangerous reply and raising the ball a foot, depending on so many factors may increase the ball weight tremendously or if a single axle trialer with the weight of the trailer too much to the rear could decrease. either way a foot is ridiculous.
My answer was for loaded or empty. keep it level or better yet, talk to the trailer rep who sold you the trailer for their BEST recommnedations. How is that? want to argue that too? What you all do in Canada, as I said, I have no idea, but your suggestion could land somebody in jail here for liable charges. My answer was right from a Towing Guide Book, got a problem, take it up with Dodge. ....

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Peters
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2006-04-17          127872

Points given: That can influence ride when empty.
- Tongue height. I like to select a reciever that is level when empty. If like you say it gets better when loaded, it may be a little low and as the springs flatten out it improves.
- Tongue weight. If you do not have enough tongue weight when empty it can get better with load. If the trailer is light it does not have enough mass to sway the truck only bounce.
- If this is a new trailer I would check the alignment of the axels on the dual axel trailer. Like the alignment on the car tire scuff can cause the tires to bounce and through the trailer in odd directions when hitting a bump. We used to see this problem a lot in the Easy Loader type boat trailers as the axels are bolted on with U bolts and can slide if they loosen up.
- Wheel balance, you can check but in general I have not had much feed back to the truck. Sometimes to the determent of the tires.
- Do you have the towing package on the 150? My F150 towed the equipment trailer fine.
- Tire pressure. I carry a tank with me and the pump. With an inverter you can run a AC pump also.
....


Link:   Road Runner

 
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SG8NUC
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2006-04-17          127875

I have a bicycle pump, my wife complains about it being labor intensive. I do offer encourgment, just a few more pumps baby and I will check it again. LOL I have a compressor at home. ....

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CORNROW
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2006-04-17          127892

Well, raising the WD hitch is not really something I can consider. I have it riding maybe an inch or so high when empty, helps when the load is brought on. I use an impact wrench and torque the ball, bolts, etc. on at 300 ft/lb. Adjusting this would mean I'd need to carry the big compressor around on each empty trip. This force can't, at least for me, be broken by hand. I've tried. It does level out when I get up to speed. But I will try the delation trick this week. See how I like it. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-18          127906

Corn
Keep the deflation within the specified limits or you may create excessive Heat in the tire and risk a possible blow out. So be careful, but I think it will help.
I did have a Easy Loader trailer as Peters said, and Yes! the axles had slipped and the Ubolts had worked loose, I did have them align and it helped very much. He was right on about that.
Trailer should be level when empty and as level as possible when loaded and if you load your trailer as it is recommended 60% to the front of the axle and 40% to the rear and use the proper equipment etc and be within the Class IV Ball Range, you will always be fine.
Commin sense goes along ways ....

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Murf
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2006-04-18          127912

Wing, no I don't have a problem with you, but when you make an inflamatorty statement like saying that raising the coupler when towing an empty trailer will cause it to sway uncontrollably, and could cause the driver to lose control, that is plain wrong and needs to be corrected.

Period.

BTW, "What they do in Canada..." is pretty much the same as they do south of the border, the regulations are pretty much standardized all across North America.

"...actually when the tongue weight exceeds 500 pounds a weight-distributing hitch is recomneded." and this would be when you're towing with what? A Honda Civic?

Best of luck. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-18          127915

Murf

If you would even think someone would be towing with a Honda Civic and need a weight distrubting hitch. What is the matter with you? you looking for a confrontation or do like showing your ignorance?
Raising the Ball a foot to eliminate sway is a real dumb suggestion and I will continue to say a real dangerous one. It is an 18 foot trailer and he mentioned 5ooo pound axles with an S. So is it a Low boy type of trailer and if so do you have any idea what the Curb wieght of this trailer is?
I gave all of my supporting info and where I obtained it from, as of yet, you have not done so and only tried to tear what I said apart. I told you it is straight from a Dodge Towing Guide and you still continue to want to be some smart ass. You offer No supporting sources for your claims.
I have a great idea you ignore me for now on and I will ignore you. How is that?
....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-18          127916

Murf

Again you balantly make a statement with no support. Canada does NOT have the same regulations as the U.S. their legal load limits are 120,000 to the U.S. 80,000 and the number of axles allowed is more than the U.S. and the 41 foot Bridge law does not apply in Canada.
What regulations are you refering to Arete versus STOP?? or Quest is West or exactly what do you refer to?
If you can put 500 pounds of tongue weight on a Honda Civic and tow it, I want to watch you. If 500 pounds is the 10% minium that means you are towing a 5000 loaded trailer, quite an accomplishment for a Honda Civic that probably has a 1000 lb towing limit.
Why don't you really ignore me, your replies are quite assidine. ....

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Peters
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2006-04-18          127917

Cornrow - I normally carry at least 2 recievers in the truck. If I am sitting 2 high or low I can adjust, by sliding in a different reciever. I do not carry the bar and socket for the 300 lb of torque.
I assume you are towing with a reciever as the bumper will not carry the weight. If you get that much weight on the bumper you will find it flexes adding to the feed back to the truck.

WW - There are considerable differences in the laws in the States. For example I can tow a trailer with a trailer here and people can ride in a fifth wheel here if they have communication with the driver.
Murf has numerous trailers and probably thousands of miles more towing experience than either of us. He works in the States and Canada so has experience with multiple States and Provinces. It is not just a few truck and trailer combinations it is the set up of many.
I was a marine mechanic when I was in High school and we had a dry land boat yard. I learned to drive with a trailer before I learned without. We sold boats so set up numerous boat and trailer combinations. Despite this fact I have learned a few things from Murfs posts on trailers.
As I have written a few books and scientific articles in my time, not everything in the article or book is the truth or fact. I have a couple of college texts with my hand corrections all over them. If you find an expert with an analytical mind like Murf, he generally will not steer you far wrong.

His statement, the higher you raise the tongue of the trailer the less feed back you get to the truck is true, but I have moved empty boat trailers like this and they jump like a bucking bronco. His example was to push it to the extreme. In reality we are talking of an inch or two. ....

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Murf
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2006-04-18          127919

I saw ZERO back up for your statement about raising the tongue causing a lack of control. Please repost it.

My backup, it's called physics, shall I walk you through the math?

Speaking of ignorance, the reference to a Civic was something called being facetious .......

BTW, re-read the whole thread, my suggestion was NOT to raise the hitch a foot to eliminate sway. In fact the only reference to sway was yours.

The question asked was how to stop an EMPTY trailer from JARRING the tow vehicle quite so much.

Yes, I have an idea what an 18' tandem 5k # axle trailer would weigh empty, probably about 2,700 #, at least that's what my BriMar weighs.

BTW, according to Pythagorus, the change of 1' in the hitch height would maens about a 3.81407° change in the attitude of the trailer, assuming the frame rails are structural C channel and it has a steel deck, that might make about a 1/2 pound difference in tongue weight. Given it's starting at about 450 pounds, that would be maybe a little over a tenth of one percent reduction in hitch weight.

Best of luck.
....

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Murf
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2006-04-18          127922

Ok, I was wrong, you were right, now that you pointed out that this guy wants to put 80,000 pounds behind his F150 on a 4 axle 53' highway trailer I agree, it will definitely have a sway problem......

BTW, it is arrêt, and ouest ..... más claro ahora?

Best of luck. ....

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shortmagnum
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2006-04-18          127924

"BTW, according to Pythagorus, the change of 1' in the hitch height would maens about a 3.81407° change in the attitude of the trailer"

Murf,
I'm not usually anal about numbers (sure I'm not) but I think you moved a decimal in your calculation. It's about 0.384 degrees. This only makes your argument stronger.

I agree with you because my empty trailer transmits more bumps to the truck when I have it hooked to the reciever hitch. When I used a higher bumper mounted ball (4-5" higher) I don't even feel the empty trailer back there.
Dave ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-18          127927

Murf

You love to argue and say nothing.
If you raise the Ball one Foot as you so mentioned then when you load the trailer you will either have too much or not enough weight on the ball. Remember (unless you want to argue the facts as well) no less than 10% of trailer weight on the ball and no more than 15%. So if you load a trailer that is going to meet those specs of no less than 10% and no more than 15% and you load with 60% to front of trailer axle and 40% to the rear and I know you have no use for one if you like to jack the ball up, but for the people who use the correct equipment and that would be a weight distributing hitch if tongue weight is 500 or more pounds, than the load is correct. regardless. Care to argue that? I want to hear it.
Your math is very weak and if it has C channel, I or box channel rails would be very irrevelant what would be revelant and you neglected to mention would be the distance from the ball to the center of the first trailer axle. Yeah! maybe in your trailer case it made a 3 degree difference for a 1 foot raise at the Ball, that is NOT always the case and is exteremley isolated, due to brand and type. To be able to use such Blanket and General info for everyon, would sure make my job easier. Damn! the shorter the distance from Ball to axle the greater the degree change when Ball is rasied or lowered.
You can load a trailer any way you want and if you like a pitch on the trailer that is fine with me, but SAFETY and every Manual I have here in my office clearly says that Class IV ball should Never have less than 10% and Never more than 15% of the total Trailer weight.
Keeping the trailer level to the truck towing will keep even weight on all Axles which will give you the best uniform ride possible, but as Peters said, if one axle is out of aligment or dogging, then that will make a difference in handling.
Now for a slow learning Canadian, I will spell it very slowly for you.
a. Level when empty
b. load the trailer evenly from side to side
c. load 60% of trailer load towards the front and 40% towards the rear of the trailer.
d. Class IV should never exceed 10,000 pounds
e. Never have less than 10% of the Gross trailer weight on the ball and never more than 15% of gross trailer weight on the Ball.
f. Use a weight distributing hitch if ball weight should exceed 500 pounds.
e. Pitching a trailer may cause uneven weight distribution and loss of operator control.

So care to elaborate what you don't agree with. These are all taken from the Dodge Towing Guide and when we Job Rate a customer and sell him a truck this is what we go through. So Please inform me where I and Dodge are wrong. I want to be sure I give my customers the correct information. We sell a lot of Dualies and single axles etc and have fifth wheels installed and Goose necks etc etc so come on Murf, I am dying to hear your B.S. pour it on me. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-18          127930

Short

I am not anal about my numbers either, but how long is this trailer that If I raise a foot at the ball will only make a 1/3 of a degree change at the axle? I am having a tough time accepting Murf's 3.8 degree change. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-18          127931

from the Calif website
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt12.htm


Load-distributing hitches are designed to distribute the hitch weight relatively evenly to all axles of the tow vehicle and trailer. The tow vehicle and trailer should be in a level position (attitude) in order for the hitch to do its job properly. Here is how to check:

With the tow vehicle loaded for a trip, measure the distance between the vehicle and the ground at reference points, which you can establish, in front and rear. Keep the figures handy for later use.
Hitch the trailer and adjust the tension on the spring bars so the tow vehicle remains at roughly the same attitude (i.e., if the rear drops an inch after hitching, the front should also drop an inch).
Inspect the trailer to be sure it is level. If not, hitch ball height should be raised or lowered, as necessary. You may need spring bars rated for more weight if you cannot keep the tow vehicle from sagging in the rear. ....

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2006-04-18          127933

Wing.... Take a deep breath or two. Let's all chill a bit here.

We started this thread talking about towing an EMPTY trailer and reducing the bounce.

Seems to me that quoting the various regulations and Dodge specs and tongue loads relating to LOADED trailers does not address the issue.

Muff's suggestion would seem to concentrate more weight on the trailer axles of an EMPTY trailer and it makes sense to me that that would change the rate bounce.

Everyone seems to agree that raising the ball or reducing the tire pressure on a LOADED trailer is counter productive and dangerous. ....

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wingwiper
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2006-04-18          127934

go to GOOGLE and type in attitude of a trailer and then look at and read the 7th Title. It should read "TOWING YOUR TRAILER SAFELY The tow vehicle and trailer should be in a level position (attitude) in order for the hitch to do its job properly. Here is how to check: ..." ....

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2006-04-18          127935

Well..... I tried..... ....

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2006-04-18          127936

WW and Murf.
With dual axel trailer the tongue weight increases as you increase the tongue height. You transfer the pivot point from the front axel to the rear increasing the load on the rear wheels and the truck. You lift the front wheels and lower the rear.
You need a lot of weight just on the rear of the trailer, like a dump trailer as Murf mentions a while back, to over come the additional unloaded weight of the two and a half feet of trailer, wheels, axel and fenders. ....

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2006-04-18          127937

Dave, you are of course right, it should be 0.384°.

There are several other engineers on this site, perhaps one or more of them would care to verify the math?

It seems I proved my case based on undisputed physics and mathematics. I hardly feel either could be considered BS.

"Your math is very weak..." care to elucidate?

"Now for a slow learning Canadian, I will spell it very slowly for you." please keep cheap shots and personal attacks out of the facts. Children rely on such tactics when they have no other arguement to make. This is an adult forum.

"...when we Job Rate a customer and sell him a truck..." Can I take it from this then that you are a D/C sales rep.? Is your entire trailer knowledge based on a D/C trailering brochure? ....

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2006-04-18          127938

dr

I made my statement quite clear and was replying to several posts and wanted to be certain that people reading these posts were NOT misguided. You may go back and reread my posts and you will note I made it known for empty and loaded and Peters made the best suggestions for Axle alignment and even carrying multiple inserts and Balls.
Murf decided he wanted to single my posts out with his sarcasisims and DR, this has happened a few other times on other threads and that is why I am aiming my replies at Murf. Please do NOT involve yourself, I have no beef from you and bought my JD based on a lot of your posts over the last couple of years. I researched what you said and never found any B.S. and you clearly stated OPINION when it was just that. Towing is serious and for someone to come on here and post some silly and half-ass posts without explanations could lead to an accident. Dealerships have been sued as well as Salesmen for giving information such as Murf is so Generaly doing. If what I posted is followed, it will be a SAFE load for empty or loaded trailer regardless and if there is problems with HOPPING or DOGGING, then Peters had the correct and intelligent replies. ....

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2006-04-18          127940

sarcasisims ????? ....

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2006-04-18          127942

inflamatorty statement ?????? ....

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2006-04-18          127946

I do not find a lack of basic english language skills to be "inflamatorty".

"Now for a slow learning Canadian... " that was "inflamatorty".

"....I will spell it very slowly for you." I would prefer you spell it correctly, but do as you wish. ....

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2006-04-18          127948

The way you were implying that I was just a Brochured learned Sales Rep, I thought being a so called ENGINEER you would not make such trifle spelling errors. Guess I was wrong again..eh? ....

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2006-04-18          127949

While we are on spelling errors "instant dismaissal"?????
So if you were pointing out something with your post. Care to stop now or would like to carry this CHILDISH routine on longer?
....

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2006-04-18          127952

I thought there was a difference between a typo. and inventing a word, but apparently not.

I'm not a "so called" engineer, I got a goodly edjumakashun at MCB Quantico, I'm a full-on papered Injunear.

So like, take off!
....

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2006-04-18          127953

I cant stand it any longer. This is better than when the hogs ate my little brother. I must agree that this was a bouncy subject. I think it would be a good idea to add spell check to this forum. I have wondered about some words.

Injunear-----you got to laugh at that.

....

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2006-04-18          127958

Peters,

Now there is an idea. I'll try my simple bar with a 2 inch drop, turned over. The WD hitch I could carry and place on before load. I'll give it a try.

Estimated weights for those interested
trailer 2500 lbs
tractor 2500 lbs
implements 500 lbs

Total load is around 5500 to 6000, depending on number of implements carried. ....

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2006-04-18          127965

Cornrow;
I am trying to remember whether I did the same think with the F150, in terms of buying another receiver heighth drop for the equiment trailer and getting a bouncy ride with the one I had for the boat. It has been so many years. I lost the F150 in 99. The with the Dodge dually you don't even know it is there.
Let us know how it works. We had better close this thread before I have to step between cousin Murf and WW. ....

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2006-04-18          127970

"inflamaTORTY statement ?????? "

Sounds like an insult that carries with it the risk of a lawsuit.

I think it a word..... it's gotta be a word..... ....

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2006-04-19          127974

Corn

If you have the trailer LEVEL BEFORE LOADING and when you load your tractor and implements you must be sure you do not go under 550 pounds of tongue weight or over 775 pounds, you will have your trailer loaded properly and have the BEST ride possible. Now if you insert a different insert while running Empty that would be your best solution as well as slowing down. With this tongue weight on a Class IV it is also Highly Recommended you use a weight distributing Hitch. Any compromise will create a less than desireable ride and or experience.
Go ahead Murf, your turn. ....

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2006-04-19          127976

Thank you Wing.

I think there's a typo. in the goat-truck sales paperwork somewhere. I believe the trailer is supposed to be level AFTER loading, not before. With a anything north of 500 pounds way back there on the hitch of any 1/2 ton pick-me-up truck, the bumper will need caster wheels under it, it will be so squatted down it will nearly drag on bumps.

In most cases with a 1/2 ton, using the ball mount that results in a level LOADED trailer, will cause the tongue to sit high enough when unladen to result in a smoother ride.

A little careful experimentation might be in order.

Best of luck. ....

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2006-04-19          127978

"The thing works great when I have a little load on it, but when I pull it around empty, it jars my truck quite a bit."

Wiper, that quote is from Cornrow's initial post. What part of "empty" trailer don't you understand?
Dave ....

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2006-04-19          127986

Some of you flock together like Flies on fresh laid manure.
Murf, I really have no clue who you are trying to impress. Level before empty and 500 pounds would not cuz a 1/2 ton to squat. You must drive a Ford or a Chevy or use a Bumper mounted hitch, mine is mounted to the frame. I hauled a 22 foot boat loaded and full tanks up and down mountains and out to Lake Champlain, with my DODGE 1500, long box, Reg Cab 318 C.I. for almost 10 years. NEVER had a problem, rode like a dream. Had about 600 pounds on the tongue with WDH. Didn't replace any brake shoes or pads or springs either. I had Monore Air shocks in the rear with about 70 psi. Easy loader dual axle trailer.


SHORT,

I have no clue what you typed or meant, What I posted is what I have been saying from post one. The info in the initial post implied, that at least the guy was dealing with a GTWR of 10k and what I have been typing has NOT changed one bit. Remember at 500 pound tongue weight you should use a WDH and if you load the trailer proper, it will be close to level when loaded. Do you all need diagrams as well? LOL
At least Corn was able to take the good intel from all this and do what he felt was right even if some of you acted like children, at best.
....

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2006-04-19          127991

Wing, I have no desire nor goal of impressing anyone.

"...on fresh laid manure." Interesting analogy considering we're replying to YOUR posts.

As for tow vehicles, all you have to do is click on my pictures, #'s 19 & 20 show the SMALLEST of my tow rigs.

BTW, boats are designed light, it's kind of a requirement for floating, and average 22' runabout weighs about 3,500 pounds, if it was a cuddy it might weigh 5,000 pounds, in either case the majority of weight, the engine and fuel tanks, are at the very rear, which is why the tongue is so relatively long on a boat trailer, in an effort to balance it up.

I repeat my earlier statement, if you need a WDH with a ~500 pound tongue weight you don't have enough truck out front. I used to tow my boat between Toronto and Florida twice a year, and did for years. There's a few hills along that route too, from tip of propeller to tip of hitch was about 45' and it weighed about 10,000 pounds including the tri-axle trailer it sat on. No WDH was ever required.

Best of luck. ....

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2006-04-19          127999

Murf

Consider this the last response to you. I expected the answer I got from you as I would have expected it from a 13 year old. You are right on, didn't miss a beat.
My 22 foot boat had two cabins, a V-8 and the 50 Gallon fuel tank was in the middle. Designed Light you say in order to float, is that what you are implying. Here we go. It is all about displacement, AMTRACS are far from light as well as many of the Assault Vehicles and they float fine. Better tell the Military to start redesigning, Murf doesn't agree with them.. ROFLMAO
My boat loaded was just under 6000 pounds.
Murf you don't need to do a thing, I could care less if your dropped dead from a Heart attack in the next ten minutes. If you choose NOT to use a WDH that is fine with me. I posted what the Porper thing was to do and if you feel compromise is good, then you post away.
Good Day. You have a fan club here, so enjoy yourself and you must have some life if you need to post pictures of your stuff for everyone else to see. I think I am not interested though. It is more the QUality of the Life and not the Quanity.
Your mentality is below any standard of my liking "I think there's a typo. in the goat-truck sales paperwork somewhere" GOAT-TRUCK????? come on Murf, is that the BEST you can do? Never did like Frogs, now I know why....
Good Day. ....

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2006-04-19          128003

Wing, is your first name Ray by chance?

13 year old? Followed by racial slurs, and personal attacks? You're kidding right?

Again, you read what you wanted to see, NOT what I said.

I said "boats" are designed light, but that would be like reading "empty trailer" now wouldn't it? I know very well what a AMTRAC or AV weigh, or even an LCAC for that matter, I had two shiny silver bars on my uniforms collar....... I learned all about that stuff.

BTW, 'Frog' is a term used to refer to the French people by some, at least get your racial slurs right, I'm an Anglophone. While we're at it, please keep your slurs to yourself also, we try to keep this is a family-rated forum.

As for the term "goat-truck" it is becoming a very common slang term for Dodge's trucks, in fact I first heard it in Florida where I used to have a house, and spent my winter's every year. It comes from the animal on the hood ornament, you know, like the Mack bulldog?

Best of luck. ....

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2006-04-19          128022

Anglophone - You got me on that one, I did not know what I was. Also we all live in a Anglosphere. NOW I KNOW THE WHOLE STORY.

An anglophone is someone who speaks English natively or by adoption. As an adjective, it means English-speaking, whether referring to individuals, groups or places.

In a narrower sense, the notion of "Anglophone" reaches beyond the mere dictionary definition of "English-language speaker". The term specifically refers to people whose cultural background is primarily associated with English language, regardless of ethnic and geographical differences. The Anglophone culture beyond the "mother country" is the legacy of the British colonial empire and its arradiation.

In Canada, and especially in Quebec, this term is widely used to designate someone whose everyday language is English, contrasted to francophone (someone whose everyday language is French) and allophones (those who use any other language).

The term can also refer to major English-speaking nations such as the United Kingdom, Ireland, the United States, Canada, Singapore, Australia and New Zealand. These countries are sometimes known as the Anglosphere.

....

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2006-04-19          128029

MURF: Are you really sure about: "which is why the tongue is so relatively long on a boat trailer, in an effort to balance it up."?

The tongue length in and of itself has little to do with balance--unless it is intentionally weighted. Rather, the placement of the center of axle(s) determines balance, or more accurately, proper weight distribution if 60/40 is the target. The length is more likely a function towability (longer tongue easier to back), loadability and one-size-fits-all so that the boat safely clears the tow vehicle, especially when turning. ....

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2006-04-19          128033

It also is to remove the boat from the trailor with out having to back the towing veichle into the water. ....

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2006-04-19          128036

The position of the wheels on a boat trailer depends on the weight distribution of the boat. Most modern trailers you move the axel to adjust the weight distribution. As many boats have the engines in the rear the wheels are back on the trailer. Something like a Ski Nautique with the engine the center have the wheels on the trailer closer to the center. ....

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2006-04-20          128042

EW, I was trying to use simple plain language, by 'tongue' I meant the distance from the coupler to the centerline of the suspension. If you look at two equal length trailers side-by-side, one for a boat, one for a car, you will see that the suspension is much farther back on the boat trailer, nearly at the back in fact.

Most boat trailers don't have a tongue by the conventional way of thinking. The frame merely converges to a coupler. If you look at most boat trailers from a purely design perspective, they don't have anywhere near as much "tongue" as a regular trailer since the forward tip of the boat is actually really close to the coupler. Some of the larger boat trailers have a telescopic tongue feature that allows you add as much as 10' to a trailer to aid in launching.

Best of luck. ....

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2006-04-22          128133

Wow, this thread really got hot! Very entertaining!

Really seems simple to me. A EMPTY trailer can't change the tongue weight at all, either high or low, it's built in with the axle placement.

Once you have a load on the trailer, simply change the height to what works best with a LOAD.

I have a 18' Mac Lander 12,000 trailer I pull with my 2002 Ford F-150 FX4. It does ride rougher when empty, little bumps aren't soaked up.

Since I have a air bag system installed, I will pump it up so the rear of the truck rides high when EMPTY to see if it is better. When LOADED I run level.

ksmmoto ....

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2006-04-22          128142

Whoa!--not so fast there buddy...

"A EMPTY trailer can't change the tongue weight at all, either high or low, it's built in with the axle placement."

>>>That's true if a.) the trailer is a fully a flat bed and b.) it has no ramps, tailgate, racks, spare tire holder, etc. or anything else of appreciable weight/ and or height sticking up above the trailer frame that could change the center of gravity---and the taller the item is the worse the effect on center of gravity i.e., tongue weight. I know from experience that ramps on an equipment trailer have a different effect on tongue weight just based on where they are "locked" for travel (all the way forward or leaning backward). (For example if you were to mount a heavy wooden pole standing vertically anywhere on the trailer and you raise and lower the tongue, the weight on the tongue would change. Now, pretend you are pulling this trailer with the pole down a washboard roadway---the trailer would be rocking fore and aft as would the truck. This effect is still happening to a fully flat bed trailer to some degree, but you don't notice it.This fore and aft effect is especially felt on tall, enclosed, bumper-pull trailers. I now this since I have a 24' enclosed car hauler that I use a "workshop on wheels" loaded with 4,000 lb. of tools, benches, and a top mounted ladder rackthat raises the CNG a lot to the point it bucks and kicks with the slightest bump and dip in the road.

"I have a 18' Mac Lander 12,000 trailer I pull with my 2002 Ford F-150 FX4. It does ride rougher when empty, little bumps aren't soaked up."

>>>>They are not soaked up by the springs (and even the tires) because of what is called "unsprung weight" of the axles, tires, wheels, springs, etc. which has to be less than the "sprung weight" of the trailer frame UNLOADED or LOADED to not bounce. All that weight under the trailer frame literaly forces the lighter frame up as basically it is working as one solid unit rather than two smaller independent units working against each other. There's a whole lot more to this than I care to write, but that's it in a nut shell.

"Since I have a air bag system installed, I will pump it up so the rear of the truck rides high when EMPTY to see if it is better. When LOADED I run level."

>>>>No,no, no. Now you have introduced a whole other problem: now the rear of the truck is going to be stiffer. What you want to change is the shock rate, not the weight carrying ability. Therefore you need adjustable shocks---not "air ahocks" or "air bags" or "spring assisted shocks" which literally lift the suspension. For years I used Rancho 9000 Air-Adjustable-on-the-fly shocks with stock springs on my Dodge pickups. My buddy who had a bone-stock Ram like mine could only go 6-9 mph over washboard sand dunes. I could with my 9000's go as fast as 40mph over the same sand. It was absolutely amazing and astounding that changing only the shocks would allow that. And since they are adjustable from the cab you can control the fronts or rears separately. 8 years ago they were about $600 for a full set including the read-out gages, air compressor and lines. Well worth the money though.
....

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2006-04-27          128455

Folks,

Having spent over 20 years in the transportation safey field and having investigated 100's of major crashes, I can state from experience that you never run your tires under inflated. How many times have driven down the highway and come across tire strips from tractor-trailers -- why - tire fatigue? Under inflated tires, regardless of axle or vehicle size, is the number one cause of tire fatique/failure. The reason the trailer is bouncy, is as mentioned no weight on an axle without shocks. Slowing down is the only method to maintain control.

Sorry for the rant but I would hate to come across you during one of my highway crash scene investigations. ....

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2006-04-27          128458

There is a range of safe tire inflation and it is based on the load the tire is carrying. Read the door panel on your car or pick-up.

I am not suggesting "under-inflating" the tire. I am saying there is really no reason to carry a full 60 psi in those load range D's if your 2000 pound, empty weight trailer, is unloaded and each tire is asked to support only 500 pounds instead of the loaded weight of 1750 pounds each.

When my flatbed is unloaded and running at full tire pressure, only the center 1/3 of the tread will even touch the ground. It cannot hurt to deflate a bit just so you get the entire tread width to engage the road surface.


....

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2006-04-28          128465

I agree with Rankin about lowering the presssure to promote even tire wear. On my Ram diesel 4x4 which is extremely front-heavy compared to the rear, I have to run 20psi lower pressures in the rears (90psi fronts). Otherwise the centers wear out. ....

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